Draft one of these 3 players PLEASE!

[GregCook]

Sorry, had to step out for a sec. Okay, on we go.

More reasons I don't want Raji?

He's jumping up the draft boards after the senior bowl. Remind anyone of Sedrick Ellis? How'd that work out?

Actually, Raji hasn't jumped that much on the draft boards. Oh, there are few folks like me who have fallen in love, but for the most part Raji is still seen going where he was before the SB, between 12 (Bills) and 24 (Falcons). Those that see him in the 6 (Bengals) to 9 (Green Bay) range remain a minority, though the Packers are probably getting more love as a destination than Cincy.

Raji is a character red flag. He sat out the 2007 season when Boston College red shirted him due to 'academic issues'.

My understanding is that the suspension was related to some kind of book-keeping snafu at BC that denied him credit for some summer courses. It doesn't appear to be an issue.

He was also ejected from a game with Central Michigan and subsequently suspended for punching an opponent.

Well, I guess we should cut Whit then...

Raji missed all of Spring practice in 2008 with a shoulder injury and this is something that needs to be researched.

It certainly should, but it didn't seem to impact his play last year.

Marvin gave some clues today where he's heading in the draft and FA. He focused on veterans other than TJ and Shayne not earning their keep in so many words. Specifically mentioned how their play got Carson hurt. If you look at vets, that would be

Levi, Bobbie, Stacy on the line.

Chad and TJ at wr.

Utecht and Reggie at TE.

Peko, Geathers and Odom on the dline.

Jeanty and Jones at LB.

JJ in the secondary.

Marvin didn't mention names of course, but those are his vet starters. Who had a real fine year? IMHO TJ is the only one. Peko and Jeanty and Jones did well and all the others kind of blowed. Forgot the punter, he definitely sucked too.

Maybe those guys get competition next season.

[derekshank]

That's your opinion I guess, and you're entitled to it. But I would have hoped you would have given some reasoning.

I gave as much reasoning as I felt you did. We don't need Raji because we have Orien Harris and "Pat" Shirley? Really, how impressive can "Pat" be if you can't even remember his name?

As for DT not being the problem with the pass rush, I simply disagree. Getting a difference-maker in the middle would do more for the rush than anything except possibly Orapko -- and even that's a coin flip that assumes Geathers' 2005 performance wasn't a fluke.

You're right. I forgot his name, and didn't merely mistype when earlier referring to Sims.

But the point was not about Shirley and Harris, nearly as much as it was about the 3rd and 4th round picks of Peko and Sims compared with the recent top 10 picks of Ellis and Dorsey. Or if you'd prefer, the '07 1st round wonders that are Amobi Okoye and Justin Harrell. In fact, you must go back to '06 with Haloti Ngata (again overlooking the other two 1st round busts in that year) to find a 1st round DT that hasn't underperformed terribly in comparison with later round DT's.

But you're not concerned about it, and give no reason whatsoever to back up your lack of concern... but I do apologize, because I'm stupid.

[derekshank]

Marvin gave some clues today where he's heading in the draft and FA. He focused on veterans other than TJ and Shayne not earning their keep in so many words. Specifically mentioned how their play got Carson hurt. If you look at vets, that would be

Levi, Bobbie, Stacy on the line.

Chad and TJ at wr.

Utecht and Reggie at TE.

Peko, Geathers and Odom on the dline.

Jeanty and Jones at LB.

JJ in the secondary.

Marvin didn't mention names of course, but those are his vet starters. Who had a real fine year? IMHO TJ is the only one. Peko and Jeanty and Jones did well and all the others kind of blowed. Forgot the punter, he definitely sucked too.

Maybe those guys get competition next season.

How did Peko, Geathers, and Odom contribute to Palmer's injury I wonder? Or perhaps you're reading into it too much.

[derekshank]

He was also ejected from a game with Central Michigan and subsequently suspended for punching an opponent.

Well, I guess we should cut Whit then...

I can only hope you are being facetious... because if you're not, you're showing a ridiculous amount of bias to research and explain away his off the field issues, meanwhile showing no desire to research the circumstances regarding his ejection and suspension regarding on the field issues.

Really... all you must to is look at some obvious character flaws, whether you look at his lack of discipline when it comes to maintaining his weight, his lack of responsibility when it comes to maintaining his academic eligibility, or his lack of self-control when it comes to on the field fighting. Comparing that to a player of Whitworth's great character when you well know he was in a situation that he was defending himself against another player with no character whatsoever is insulting at best.

[HoosierCat]

But you're not concerned about it, and give no reason whatsoever to back up your lack of concern.

Because I don't mind taking a shot at a defensive playmaker, whatever the position. You don't like Raji, fine. Lots of people don't like Orapko or Maualuga either. I'd be fine with any of them.

Really... all you must to is look at some obvious character flaws, whether you look at his lack of discipline when it comes to maintaining his weight, his lack of responsibility when it comes to maintaining his academic eligibility, or his lack of self-control when it comes to on the field fighting.

So, let's recap: he throws one punch (three years ago, no less), has a records issue which appears as much BC's fault as his, and pretty much the same issues regarding weight as every other DT of his type. Ho. Hum.

[Wraith]

If you look at Henderson, Stroud, and Haynesworth (and even Ngata in his rookie season) you will see that DTs tend to figure out the NFL later than other positions, lets take a look at first round DTs since 2000.

2000: 2 DT's taken in the First Round. Corey Simon was a pro bowl player and Chris Hovan was/is a solid starter

2001: 6 DT's taken Rd. 1, Mixed results: Gerard Warren and Ryan Pickett are legitimate busts, Richard Seymour, Marcus Stroud and Casey Hampton are great players, Damione Lewis is an average NFL starter

2002: 4 DT's taken in Rd. 1. 2 great players (Henderson and Haynesworth) and 2 complete busts (Ryan Sims and Wendell Bryant)

2003: 4 DTs taken Rd. 1, 1 Pro Bowler (Kevin Williams), 1 bust (Jimmy Kennedy), 2 average NFL Starters (Dewayne Robertson and Jonathon Sullivan)

2004: 3 DTs in the first round. 2 Pro Bowlers (Tommie Harris and Vince Wilfork) and 1 Bust (Marcus Tubbs)

2005: 3 DTs in the first round. Mike Patterson and Luis Castillo are well on their way to being pro bowl players. Travis Johnson is a starter but on his way to being a bust.

2006: 3 DTs: McCargo has had injury issues, but Bunkley had a strong year for Philly and Ngata has played at a pro bowl level the last 2 seasons.

So saying the body of work is not sufficient to evaluate 2007 or 2008 players my total since 2000 is 12 Pro Bowl Caliber Players vs. 8 busts with 5 average NFL players (Sullivan a possible bust). I think this track record would far surpass WR, QB, LB, DE, or CB if I were to do a similar evaluation. So in Synopsis, IMHO you are wrong Derek.

[GregCook]

Marvin gave some clues today where he's heading in the draft and FA. He focused on veterans other than TJ and Shayne not earning their keep in so many words. Specifically mentioned how their play got Carson hurt. If you look at vets, that would be

Levi, Bobbie, Stacy on the line.

Chad and TJ at wr.

Utecht and Reggie at TE.

Peko, Geathers and Odom on the dline.

Jeanty and Jones at LB.

JJ in the secondary.

Marvin didn't mention names of course, but those are his vet starters. Who had a real fine year? IMHO TJ is the only one. Peko and Jeanty and Jones did well and all the others kind of blowed. Forgot the punter, he definitely sucked too.

Maybe those guys get competition next season.

How did Peko, Geathers, and Odom contribute to Palmer's injury I wonder? Or perhaps you're reading into it too much.

Well guys sitting on the bench while Carson was getting creamed have nothing to do with it.......Marvin was talking about certain players, namely vets, that didn't play well. Then he went on to mention for example how Carson got drilled. But he wasn't just talking about the oline. The other guys I just threw out there in an attempt to finish Marvin's sentences for him. Those are the "other" vets on the team. How many of them played well?

[Kazkal]

I remember how bad I wanted Haloti Ngata....Ahhh good times hehehe.

[Clackwoods]

Well put Derek and I can see that. I had forgotten about Orien Harris as well. I'm still hoping Shirley is putting in his time to figure things out. If the light comes on for either of those two than, yes I can see not taking DT at #6. I'm just not sold quite yet. I'm also not buying the whole "Odom is a garbage signing" yet either. I know you didn't say that specifically Derek, but people are writing off the fact the guy got hurt on the first day of practice and missed significant time through the year. If the guy comes back healthy this year and does nothing, then fine, but I think it's bit premature. You just can't write off his production from Tennessee and if it's an argument of him not having the big guy in the middle, then get him one. Someone that can demand double teams, collapse the pocket, and get good penetration into the backfield to disrupt things.

You know something that noone ever takes into consideration when you talk about our horrid pass rush? Yea, I do believe Odom was assisted HEAVILY in TN by the presence of AH, but look at the teams we play in our own division. The Steelers and Ravens are predominant run teams which makes up a fourth of our schedule. It makes it hard for those ends to get to the QB when they are jamming the ball down your throat all game because if you over commit to the pass rush then you are going to get torched by the run game.

[Kazkal]

I dont think Odom is horrible people are looking for more then you'll get out of him,I think he can be a solid starter and if we did draft a end think jumpy more like should go back to his roll as specialist he was alot more productive then and you could even throw him in at SLB just to mess with offenses...

[HAPPYJAQ]

I was beginning to wonder about Raji with the 6th pick, too, before I read the excert from yesterday's interview with Marvin in which he said that they may have "Hit a Home Run" with Jason Shirley. In limited action, I thought he was extremely impressive. He's probably the quickest lineman we have behind Odom and is 340 pounds. The Bengals have to at least find out for sure what they have, so a pass on B.J. is neccessary for Jason's development to continue.

Orakpo should not a heavy consideration, as he is a 3-4 OLB at the next level....unless the Bengals are going to the 3-4 as a primary defensive alignment. Besides that, it's tough to consider a player as the 6th pick in the draft that has had durability issues in addition to being a projection selection (think Vernon Gholston). At about 6'3'' and 250 - 255 pounds, he is not a 3- down DE in the AFC North and his frame is such that he couldn't put on more weight without losing some athleticism (He came to Texas at only 210 pounds).

I am starting to like Aaron Curry more and more, but I don't know if he'll be there when the Bengals pick. The guy is a monster and a playmaker. Has a mean streak and fast. He might be the next DeMarcus Ware. If he's there, he has to be the pick.

[Kazkal]

He is 6'4 260 lbs and I think him not being able to be a 4-3 as much of a load as Reyrey only being a ILB in the 3-4...

Vernon Gholston was a combine warrior and still has jack and shet as a linebacker in the 3-4....Plus whats stopping Orakpo from putting on some weight if he's asked? Jumpy wasn't always 270 and he's only 6'3

.

[Wraith]

IMHO Orakpo only gets consideration is Smith, Maualuga, Curry, Monroe, and Raji are gone and considering we select 6th the likelyhood of us having to take our 6th guy with the 6th pick is unlikely.

I would be shocked if Maualuga wasn't the pick if he is there at 6. Given that Rivers is so close, that our team leader is an unabashed USC Homer (Palmer), and that we do not have another MLB on our roster besides Jones (who would make a great mentor) I just think this pick is almost forgone. For those who don't think that we will go LBer in the first in consecutive drafts all you have to do is look back at the Jonathan Joseph, Leon Hall selections. If Marvin is really jazzed by his DTs (Peko, Sims, Shirley) and he has every reason to like his DBs (Joseph, Hall, Ndukwe, White make a great young gorup) Then the last piece to building a championship defense is Maualuga.

[derekshank]

I was beginning to wonder about Raji with the 6th pick, too, before I read the excert from yesterday's interview with Marvin in which he said that they may have "Hit a Home Run" with Jason Shirley. In limited action, I thought he was extremely impressive. He's probably the quickest lineman we have behind Odom and is 340 pounds. The Bengals have to at least find out for sure what they have, so a pass on B.J. is neccessary for Jason's development to continue.

Don't you mean Pat Shirley? haha

Orakpo should not a heavy consideration, as he is a 3-4 OLB at the next level....unless the Bengals are going to the 3-4 as a primary defensive alignment. Besides that, it's tough to consider a player as the 6th pick in the draft that has had durability issues in addition to being a projection selection (think Vernon Gholston). At about 6'3'' and 250 - 255 pounds, he is not a 3- down DE in the AFC North and his frame is such that he couldn't put on more weight without losing some athleticism (He came to Texas at only 210 pounds).

I'm also not a huge fan of going for Orakpo with the #6 pick... but not for any of the reasons you noted. Despite his weight, he is remarkably strong... which is generally the reason you want a DE to put on weight. So he won't get pushed around. Orakpo is the one who does the pushing... usually against LT's much larger than himself.

Besides, It's not as if he'd be the smallest DE in the league. Robert Mathis only weights 245, and gets double digit sacks nearly every year. I know Mathis and Orakpo play a different style, but if the Bengals were to take Orakpo, I would not be concerned about him being a bust. I'd just prefer they go in a different direction.

I am starting to like Aaron Curry more and more, but I don't know if he'll be there when the Bengals pick. The guy is a monster and a playmaker. Has a mean streak and fast. He might be the next DeMarcus Ware. If he's there, he has to be the pick.

Yeah... but he's not going to be there.

[Pidge]

IMHO Orakpo only gets consideration is Smith, Maualuga, Curry, Monroe, and Raji are gone and considering we select 6th the likelyhood of us having to take our 6th guy with the 6th pick is unlikely.

I would be shocked if Maualuga wasn't the pick if he is there at 6. Given that Rivers is so close, that our team leader is an unabashed USC Homer (Palmer), and that we do not have another MLB on our roster besides Jones (who would make a great mentor) I just think this pick is almost forgone. For those who don't think that we will go LBer in the first in consecutive drafts all you have to do is look back at the Jonathan Joseph, Leon Hall selections. If Marvin is really jazzed by his DTs (Peko, Sims, Shirley) and he has every reason to like his DBs (Joseph, Hall, Ndukwe, White make a great young gorup) Then the last piece to building a championship defense is Maualuga.

You had me at IMHO.

[HairOnFire]

IMHO Orakpo only gets consideration is Smith, Maualuga, Curry, Monroe, and Raji are gone......

Five names. For the record, I narrowly pick Orakpo over three of them. As for the odds, I'm guessing Orakpo being unavailable at #6 is still an even money bet.

I would be shocked if Maualuga wasn't the pick if he is there at 6.

Shocked? Really?

.... the last piece to building a championship defense is Maualuga.

The LAST piece?

[Kazkal]

The LAST piece?

I wouldn't say last piece but I'm affraid if I called him the "queen" he'd come kick my ass....

[Wraith]

If you re-read my post, I say....IF Marvin is truly as happy as he sounds about his DT rotation and I also say Championship Caliber DEFENSE, not TEAM the problems on offense are many and varied and unfortunately not able to be corrected by this draft (chemistry, and the status of our Free Agents come to mind first). So I stand by my statement, IF Marvin is confident that he has all the right pieces in the interior defensive line, then Maualuga would be the last piece to create a defense to rival the best defenses in the league. They were the 12th ranked defense this year with Odom out much of the year as well as Rivers being floored by Hines Ward so they don't have that far to go to be a top ten unit.

[Kazkal]

Well with Reyrey next thing I would say is a passrushing end outside of that id be really happy with the defense and other players would be more because of depth concerns like cornerback

[Wraith]

I think they have the players on the outside if the support were there, I think Geathers and Odom would be superb players if Peko, Sims, Shirley, and Harris were to hold down the middle, and with a stellar linebacking corp to clean up the trash, the other players would be free to "just do your job".

for the record I have concerns about the interior defensive line, but Marvin Lewis knows a heck of alot more about defense and about the capabilities of these players than I do.

[Kazkal]

Yup and he finally has space eaters now vs undersized dts we been use too

[Bearcat1975]

Cincinnati Bengals Draft Needs

By NFL Mocks

January 28th, 2009

David Wellman from Stripe Hype and Fan-Sided Blogs weighs in on who the Bengals should be looking at in the upcoming 2009 NFL Draft.

As one might expect of a team that finished last season 4-11-1, the Cincinnati Bengals are in need of upgrades pretty much across the board. The only exception is quarterback, where a healthy Carson Palmer is by all reports set to return next fall. Here's a unit-by-unit look.

Offense: The Bengals' weakest unit is the offensive line. Left tackle Levi Jones hasn't been completely healthy since early in the 2006 season, right tackle Stacy Andrews tore his ACL in the second-to-last game of 2008 and is a free agent in March, and center Eric Ghiacuic, who consistently struggled against top-tier defensive linemen, isn't expected to return. The Bengals do have tackle Anthony Collins, a highly regarded junior they stole in the fourth round of the '08 draft, as well as tackle Andrew Whitworth, a second-round pick in 2006 who has been playing at left guard, so there are some tackle options in-house. Nonetheless, OT is a very strong possibility in the first, where the Bengals have the 6th overall selection. At center, Ghaicuic's backup is converted guard Dan Santucci, a seventh-round pick in 2007, so a center in the second or third round is a strong possibility as well.

A number of mock drafts have projected a running back or wide receiver to the Bengals in the first round, but at this point it's impossible to tell what those positions will look like come draft day. Cincinnati is very high on RB Cedric Benson and has made re-signing him this offseason a priority. Likewise, the Bengals also want to re-sign WR T.J. Houshmandzadeh and are said to be interested in moving fellow wideout Chad Johnson. Houshmandzadeh is a candidate for the franchise tag if a long-term deal can't be worked out. Depending on how things play out, running back and/or wide receiver could be addressed as high as the first round, though most Bengals fan would view this as a grave miscalculation. With the Bengals' abysmal offensive line unable to either run-block or protect the QB, any upgrades at RB or WR would be superfluous. A reincarnated Jim Brown couldn't make much headway behind the line as currently constituted, and even the best wideout can't help much when the QB gets gets planted every play.

The Bengals do not look to be in the market for a tight end after having signed Ben Utecht away from the Colts and drafting Villanova project Matt Sherry in the sixth round last year. However, the Bengals are very much in need of a fullback. Starter Jeremi Johnson, a fourth-round pick back in 2003, struggled with weight issues throughout his career, and last August showed up at training camp grossly overweight. He was initially put on the physically unable to perform list, but then proceeded to hurt his knee during camp and was placed on injured reserve. He was subsequently released during the season. Johnson's absence played a significant role in both the poor run game as well as the poor pass protection, as Cincinnati was forced to rely on converted TE Daniel Coats. If the Bengals don't sign a free agent FB, that becomes an option as early as the fourth round.

Defense: If fixing the offensive line is job 1 for the Bengals this offseason, fixing the pass rush is job 1a. The Bengals had just 17 sacks last season, tied with the Browns for second-fewest in the league. The team has invested heavily in the defense in the draft over the past four years with four straight first round selections dedicated to that side of the ball. The attention finally began to pay off in 2008, when the Bengals' defense finished 12th overall. A disruptive defensive tackle like B.J. Raji, whom the team's coaching staff saw up close at the Senior Bowl or defensive end such as Brian Orapko are both legitimate options in the first round. DT may be the slightly more attractive of the two. The Bengals coveted Sedrick Ellis last year but were outmaneuvered by New Orleans and forced to settle for Pat Sims (who had a solid rookie campaign) in the third. And the team already has about $60 million invested in two current defensive ends, Antwan Odom and Robert Geathers, plus former third-round pick Frostee Rucker in reserve.

Last year, the Bengals took USC linebacker Keith Rivers in the first round and installed him as the starter on the weak side. Rivers was having a very good rookie year until getting knocked out with a busted jaw. Cincinnati will almost certainly look to bolster the linebacking corps further, perhaps as early as the first round. Rey Maualuga would be an upgrade over Dhani Jones in the middle, as Aaron Curry would be over former CFL DE Rashad Jeanty on the strong side. Both those current Bengals starters are serviceable on the field and good characters in the locker room, but they aren't keeping any offensive coordinators around the league up at night.

Cornerback is a slim possibility in the first. The Bengals took first-round corners Johnathan Joseph and Leon Hall back-to-back in 2006 and 2007. Joseph has been dogged by injuries and hands of stone — just five picks on 48 passes defensed — while Hall is fine against Nos. 2 and 3 receivers, but can be burned by elite wideouts. The team's No. 3 corner is David Jones, a fifth-round pick by the Saints in 2007. The Bengals are likely set at safety, especially if free agent Chris Crocker returns.

Special teams: Special teams could be very much in the mix come draft day. Incumbent kicker Shayne Graham is a free agent in March, and so far there have been no talks between his agent and the Bengals. The team and Graham tried to reach an extension prior to the 2008 season but couldn't come to an agreement. Cincinnati was forced to match a rich offer from Jacksonville for Graham several years ago when Shayne was a restricted free agent, so his price tag for another tour of duty may simply be too high for the budget-conscious Bengals.

Punter is also up for grabs. The Bengals extended their current punter Kyle Larson last offseason, despite an iffy 2007 outing, and Larson was among the worst in the league in 2008. Special teams coach Darrin Simmons has already said that competition will be brought in at the position, and many Bengals fans would be overjoyed to see the team use a day 2 pick on a local product, University of Cincinnati standout Kevin Huber.

http://nflmocks.com/2009/01/28/cincinnati-...ls-draft-needs/

[COB]

You had me at IMHO.

Good one. The British sense of humor!