Marvin Lewis cracks me up

[HairOnFire]

Oh, I think Marvin definitely has a clue. In fact, he laid out thinking in that same interview.

Yup.

Basically, it's all about character. The '05 playoff team fell apart, Lewis maintains, because it had too many guys who weren't "screwed down" tight enough. And I certainly can't argue with that. According to Lewis, there are still too many loose screws on the Bengals. Hard to argue with that, either.

Yup again. In fact, it might be a tough task finding a head coach more willing to openly question the character of the very players who remain important pieces on their teams.

Now, you can argue that Lewis is overestimating the talent level of the team (and I think he is)....

In the very same press conference Lewis stated flatly this team isn't talented enough. Coupled with the above mentioned remarks about poor character, well....how much more should be expected of Lewis? Did Dow realistically expect Lewis to indulge his rant about any late season success, including the marginal kind we're now seeing, being harmful to Lewis's long-term hopes? Please.

[HairOnFire]

and if anyone knows about attitude and demeanor, it's my sweety Hair

Damn straight.

BTW, shouldn't you be making me a sandwich or something?

[HoosierCat]

17-33-1 I think is Marvin's record since 2005, the team that was superior in preparation to today's team. That alone shows the coach doesn't have a clue.

And his record before then? You'll have to do better than that.

Add to that his ever shifting reasons for failure without one of his reasons ever being "the one", or the second or third shows he's guessing. He doesn't know.

What, you mean that list you provided before? Two boil down to injuries, which no head coach can control. Two are in-game tactical problems every team faces. The rest all address the issue of...wait for it...character. There are no ever-shifting reasons or guessing.

To contrast and see what happens when a team exchanges one coaching staff with a Marvin like record of failure with another coaching staff that had a clue, just look at what the Tuna has done in Miami. He drastically improved their record inside one year. Not so much with vastly improved personnel, he did it by hiring coaches that had a clue and coached last years 1-15 team into playoff contention in 2008.

WHO hired coaches in Miami? Mmmm-hmmm, right. So where does that tell you the problem in Miami really was?

[HairOnFire]

17-33-1 I think is Marvin's record since 2005, the team that was superior in preparation to today's team. That alone shows the coach doesn't have a clue.

And his record before then? You'll have to do better than that.

Sadly, he probably doesn't. I've just read the reactions posted by Ludwig and McAllister and yesterdays brilliant musings of Jay Marriotti, Woody Page, and Bill Plashke(sp?) are still fresh in my mind. In each example the repsonses mirror those of EndtheDrought. In short, the miserable won/loss record invalidates any and all of Marvin Lewis's opinions, and who does he think he is when he attempts to stand up for himself?

[GregCook]

17-33-1 I think is Marvin's record since 2005, the team that was superior in preparation to today's team. That alone shows the coach doesn't have a clue.

And his record before then? You'll have to do better than that.

Sadly, he probably doesn't. I've just read the reactions posted by Ludwig and McAllister and yesterdays brilliant musings of Jay Marriotti, Woody Page, and Bill Plashke(sp?) are still fresh in my mind. In each example the repsonses mirror those of EndtheDrought. In short, the miserable won/loss record invalidates any and all of Marvin Lewis's opinions, and who does he think he is when he attempts to stand up for himself?

Marvin can defend himself all he wants. Tell it to the mountain.

Marvin has been in Cincy since 2003 with 6 seasons completed. He has been well practiced explaining why his club, his draft picks, his players fail. But what counts is simple, his won/loss record. Now if Marvin was pulling down $50K/year,

maybe he should get some slack. Marvin pulls down a few million per year so he should be held to a very,very high standard. I think won vs loss record is a good standard, don't you?

Just today Jack Del Rio fired his strength and conditioning coaches. He said because of the high number of injuries his team has suffered. Some injuries can't be helped, see David Pollack. Others Del Rio thinks can be helped. I think the Bengals would be a better team if Mike Brown held his head coach accountable for a 6 year record. Marvin should hold his coaches accountable for their records. Its not the way things are done in Cincinnati and that explains why the Bengals suck year after year.

[HoosierCat]

Marvin has been in Cincy since 2003 with 6 seasons completed. He has been well practiced explaining why his club, his draft picks, his players fail. But what counts is simple, his won/loss record. Now if Marvin was pulling down $50K/year,

maybe he should get some slack.

It has nothing to do with what Marvin is making. It has everything to do with how much this is "his" club, these are "his" draft picks and these are "his" players.

Listening to Lewis, are you trying to tell me that drafting guys like Odell, Henry, Nicholson and Shirley was his call?

Who resigned Henry last summer?

Who was counting on Odell as a starter this year?

Who cut Willie?

Who didn't trade Chad?

I think the Bengals would be a better team if Mike Brown held his head coach accountable for a 6 year record.

I think the Bengals would be a better team if Mike Brown held HIMSELF accountable for an 18 year record, don't you?

[BengalszoneBilly]

I think the Bengals would be a better team if Mike Brown held HIMSELF accountable for an 18 year record, don't you?

I know I do. Problem is he'll never be man enough to do it. Mike Brown lives in a privileged world far apart from where we do. He was handed a golden spoon, and automatically thinks that makes him some kind of golden child all because Paul Brown fathered him.

In this case the acorn fell very far from the tree. Must have been a hellacious wind blowing on that day!

[redsbengalsbucks]

I for one am happy that the Bengals have at least played with and even won a few games against the better teams in the NFL this season without Palmer. I knew going into the last three seasons that if Palmer went down for any amount of time wins would be rare and that has been the case. Indy would be in the same situation if Manning had been out as long as Palmer, even early in the season when Manning was not 100% the Colts had problems winning games.

Talent depth will always be a problem in Cincy and the other small market teams, but this year without Palmer the starting unit goes into the game lacking it's franchise player and it has shown. To be successful the Bengals will always need to have a year that is relatively injury free, look at Carolina this season, there defense has started the same players for 13 games, no wonder they are still in the playoff picture.

The defense has played much better this season even with at least half a dozen starters on IR or missing multiple games, if they can continue to improve into next year and Palmer gets/stays healthy, the last place schedule that we will draw next season will at least give them a shot at a winning record.

Hopefully the Bengals can find a solid starting OT and another D-lineman in this years draft that would solidify the lines some more.

They also need to get rid of some anchors on the team; including but not limited to Thornton, Larson, Perry, Levi and Ghiacic.

I have been a Bengals fan long enough to have seen much worse base talent on the team than there is now.

[WhosTombrady?]

Here is one quote from Marvin as he analyzes the team's 2008 performance:

"In the debate of talent vs. coaching, Lewis said this team has fewer good players than the '05 AFC North champs because "I don't think some of our good players work like they did in '05." But he also said it's a league of parity."

Some of our 2005 players? Who I wonder were the slackers? Only 10 players left from that squad.

1. TJ

2. Ocho

3. Carson

4. Levi

5. Kelly

6. Larson

7. Chris Perry

8. St. Louis

9. Watson

10. Graham

Throw Carson out, injured nearly all year. TJ, throw him out too, near Pro Bowl status. Graham? He's been fine. Kelly? Throw him out too, he's played well. St. Louis? Please.

Watson? He hardly plays.

It seems to me Marvin is talking about Ocho, Levi, Larson, and/or Chris Perry as reasons for the Bengals not achieving 2005 status.

What a loon.

If he had said well, look at our draft picks since 2005, not enough were good enough and we have simply got to do a better job on draft day. We need more scouts, more eyeballs on the players during their seasons and this will be one of my biggest priorities with the owner during the offseason. Another thing, we let some good players leave us in FA that we probably should have kept and kept players we should have let go. That is another big issue that ownership needs to address.

You only have 10 players left from your 05 team! No wonder you guys suck. Ya you really shouldn't have traded us Steinbach, he's great. Also you should have pursued Donkey Kong, as we call him, a little harder, he's an absolute beast. Best trade Savage ever made... We will trade you Stallworthlessness for TJ though, sound fair?

[HairOnFire]

It has nothing to do with what Marvin is making. It has everything to do with how much this is "his" club, these are "his" draft picks and these are "his" players.

True, but aren't both of you missing the point? Do either of you think Marvin Lewis, or any other head coach for that matter, is going to answer Dow's questions in the manner required by both of your pet theories?

Who amongst us thinks Marvin Lewis is going to choose that moment to agree that winning games now doesn't matter very much? Who thinks he's going to choose that moment to cast judgement on his coaching staff? Who thinks he's going to pick that moment to define which past decisions were made by him or his evil overlord?

[HairOnFire]

Marvin can defend himself all he wants. Tell it to the mountain.

Frankly, that's all you needed to write. Marvin can defend himself all he wants AND in any manner he wants. And who cares if that rankles those of you who seem to feel a miserable won/loss record dooms a head coach to a posture of slumped shoulders and bowed head, meek mannerisms, and press conferences filled with endless apologies and finger pointing.

[HoosierCat]

True, but aren't both of you missing the point? Do either of you think Marvin Lewis, or any other head coach for that matter, is going to answer Dow's questions in the manner required by both of your pet theories?

I'm not addressing myself to the Dow non-issue at all. I object to End's idea that Lewis is clueless and has no strategy for building a winning team. I think he has a very clear idea of what he wants to do, but he's been derailed by a combination of injuries -- Pollack, Jones, Joseph, etc. -- and a management that keeps pushing problem children on him while simultaneously cutting locker room good guys to shave a few pennies off the payroll.

That isn't the only problem on the team, but IMO it's the central one. Lewis clearly believes character is the core of any successful team and that talent, which is "evenly distributed around the league" will develop in time. OTOH, Brown believes that success in the league is primarily a matter of luck, that tales of good or bad managers are simply "themes," so just draft the best talent regardless of other factors and someday you will get the right combination of players and win.

In the end (no pun intended) End may be right that Marvin needs to move on. But until things change higher up, I don't think changing head coaches will matter very much.

[HoosierCat]

I for one am happy that the Bengals have at least played with and even won a few games against the better teams in the NFL this season without Palmer.

I like that they have done so without all the usual drama associated with lousy seasons like this one. This is the first time I can recall a Bengals team that, while trudging to the finish of another 3 or 4 win year, wasn't coming apart at the seams. No bitching for trades, no ripping management in the media, no locker room sniping in the press, no off-field follies. For once they have simply put their heads down and kept shoveling. And that definitely represents progress.

If they can get the o-line fixed, get Palmer back at 100% -- and if Mikey quits interfering with Marvin's attempts to finish mucking out the stables -- I think they could bounce back next year. We'll see.

[BengalszoneBilly]

If they can get the o-line fixed

I just don't see this happening during a single year. Not in Cincinnati anyway.

[HoosierCat]

If they can get the o-line fixed

I just don't see this happening during a single year. Not in Cincinnati anyway.

I don't think there's actually all that much to do. Whit is fine, Bobbie's steady and Collins looks like he belongs. Livings and Koo are adequate as backups. Take a tackle and center in the top three rounds (or in FA) and we should be good to go.

[BengalszoneBilly]

If they can get the o-line fixed

I just don't see this happening during a single year. Not in Cincinnati anyway.

I don't think there's actually all that much to do. Whit is fine, Bobbie's steady and Collins looks like he belongs. Livings and Koo are adequate as backups. Take a tackle and center in the top three rounds (or in FA) and we should be good to go.

Until I see a single game where the running game is actually respectable and the Bengals QB isn't spending the majority of offensive plays not having to continually launch hurried passes, or basically running for his life/getting sacked, it leads me to believe the time frame will be longer than we'd like.

That's even if it happens at all! We've seen the ability level of which the organization drafts at. I firmly believe Mike still calls the shots. Draft day seldom brings me joy as a Cincinnati fan.

[gregstephens]

If they can get the o-line fixed

I just don't see this happening during a single year. Not in Cincinnati anyway.

I don't think there's actually all that much to do. Whit is fine, Bobbie's steady and Collins looks like he belongs. Livings and Koo are adequate as backups. Take a tackle and center in the top three rounds (or in FA) and we should be good to go.

Until I see a single game where the running game is actually respectable and the Bengals QB isn't spending the majority of offensive plays not having to continually launch hurried passes, or basically running for his life/getting sacked, it leads me to believe the time frame will be longer than we'd like.

That's even if it happens at all! We've seen the ability level of which the organization drafts at. I firmly believe Mike still calls the shots. Draft day seldom brings me joy as a Cincinnati fan.

"And with the third pick in the 2009 draft, the Cincinnati Bengals take...

TIM TEBOW, Fullback, Florida."

...or tight end, or wide out, or place kicker, who the heck knows.

[gregstephens]

Marvin can defend himself all he wants. Tell it to the mountain.

Frankly, that's all you needed to write. Marvin can defend himself all he wants AND in any manner he wants. And who cares if that rankles those of you who seem to feel a miserable won/loss record dooms a head coach to a posture of slumped shoulders and bowed head, meek mannerisms, and press conferences filled with endless apologies and finger pointing.

Ah, Hair. Glad to see you back. Been sick? Shouldn't pent up all those ramblings that long. Not healthy.

[kingwilly]

If they can get the o-line fixed

I just don't see this happening during a single year. Not in Cincinnati anyway.

I don't think there's actually all that much to do. Whit is fine, Bobbie's steady and Collins looks like he belongs. Livings and Koo are adequate as backups. Take a tackle and center in the top three rounds (or in FA) and we should be good to go.

1. Andrews walks, sign C Birk to a big $ deal, shift Whit over to LT, Livings at LG, Williams at RG and Collins at RT...

2. improve quality of the depth chart by drafting a C, T and G.

3. Fire Alexander.

Mr. Brown, this does seem so tough. Mr. Nose, meet Mr. Face.

[BengalszoneBilly]

2. improve quality of the depth chart by drafting a C, T and G.

That would be a dream draft for me, but with Mike making the calls it'll never happen.

3. Fire Alexander.

This would be a wet dream for me, and as they go, this would never come true either.

[redsbengalsbucks]

If they can get the o-line fixed

I just don't see this happening during a single year. Not in Cincinnati anyway.

I don't think there's actually all that much to do. Whit is fine, Bobbie's steady and Collins looks like he belongs. Livings and Koo are adequate as backups. Take a tackle and center in the top three rounds (or in FA) and we should be good to go.

1. Andrews walks, sign C Birk to a big $ deal, shift Whit over to LT, Livings at LG, Williams at RG and Collins at RT...

2. improve quality of the depth chart by drafting a C, T and G.

3. Fire Alexander.

Mr. Brown, this does seem so tough. Mr. Nose, meet Mr. Face.

I am down with the T in first C in third but the D-line still needs some pass-rush from someone in the second, than the BPA from the LB, OL, DL, RB groups need to be address in day two.

Ignoring the defense on day one is a major mistake!

[GregCook]

Marvin continues to impress with his coaching skill today with the deactivation of both Chad and Jerome Simpson.

That number 2 pick this season must be some stud uh? After 7 months of coaching, Simpson isn't ready for just a few snaps?

[Kazkal]

Marvin continues to impress with his coaching skill today with the deactivation of both Chad and Jerome Simpson.

That number 2 pick this season must be some stud uh? After 7 months of coaching, Simpson isn't ready for just a few snaps?

o_O

[HairOnFire]

I'm not addressing myself to the Dow non-issue at all.

But it isn't a non-issue. In fact, I'd say it's almost central to the other points you're making.

I object to End's idea that Lewis is clueless and has no strategy for building a winning team.

I agree. And that's why many of us stated weeks and months ago the most important thing to look for in the 2nd half of the season was whether Lewis had enough juice left to keep his roster playing hard going into the most important offseason the Bengals have faced since.....(wait for it)......Lewis was hired. Well despite the won/loss record I'd say Lewis has managed that trick better than most would have guessed, and that's where the whole Dow/Disrespect angle comes into play. Because everything Lewis speaks about now is finishing the season the right way, how winning is still important, et cetera blah, blah, blah. So who thinks sparks aren't going to fly the moment Lewis gets an earful of Dow and his "voice of the fan" rant about any late season success being ultimately harmful?

In the end (no pun intended) End may be right that Marvin needs to move on. But until things change higher up, I don't think changing head coaches will matter very much.

Yeah, but it isn't a thread about changing coaches, is it? Instead, it's a thread about Marvin's demeanor and whether or not he has any right to show a little backbone during his press conferences. And there's the rub because not only is Lewis still coaching as if winning was all-important....I'd say he's offering a few reminders about who is still in charge of the press room.

[GregCook]

I'm not addressing myself to the Dow non-issue at all.

But it isn't a non-issue. In fact, I'd say it's almost central to the other points you're making.

I object to End's idea that Lewis is clueless and has no strategy for building a winning team.

I agree. And that's why many of us stated weeks and months ago the most important thing to look for in the 2nd half of the season was whether Lewis had enough juice left to keep his roster playing hard going into the most important offseason the Bengals have faced since.....(wait for it)......Lewis was hired. Well despite the won/loss record I'd say Lewis has managed that trick better than most would have guessed, and that's where the whole Dow/Disrespect angle comes into play. Because everything Lewis speaks about now is finishing the season the right way, how winning is still important, et cetera blah, blah, blah. So who thinks sparks aren't going to fly the moment Lewis gets an earful of Dow and his "voice of the fan" rant about any late season success being ultimately harmful?

In the end (no pun intended) End may be right that Marvin needs to move on. But until things change higher up, I don't think changing head coaches will matter very much.

Yeah, but it isn't a thread about changing coaches, is it? Instead, it's a thread about Marvin's demeanor and whether or not he has any right to show a little backbone during his press conferences. And there's the rub because not only is Lewis still coaching as if winning was all-important....I'd say he's offering a few reminders about who is still in charge of the press room.

If Marvin has to stomp on a lowly newsie to show the team he's got alittle backbone, then he succeeded...he showed he had little backbone. If he wanted to show backbone, he should have picked on someone his own size, like Daugherty or Chick.

Whipping a nobody like Dow was pointless and just gave those guys with barrels of ink another motivation to go after Marvin....not smart when your team is 2-11-1.