Former Bengals

[combatbengal]

I have no idea what's going on with the Bengals; why we can't get players motivated to play for us. I was watching some NFL this past weekend and what I saw was unbelievable. For some reason, our def (in past seasons) looked worse the Pop Warner players when it came to making tackles and covering Wide Receivers. I saw Ratliff make some awesome hits and tackle this past weekend. He looked 80% better then he did when he played for us. O’Neal looked like crap playing for us, and yet he’s kicking butt with the Pat’s. Dillon had a bad attitude with the Bengals, then goes to the Pats and earns a super bowl ring. Who else is out that that we released and is now player to the level as a professional football player? Just unbelievable.

[7/11]

it's the bengals culture that keeps players down.

i work two jobs right now. at one job, management is terrible and the bosses bust our balls non stop. morale is always low and people constantly bitch.

at my other job, it is run properly and the owner takes care of us. very rarely do i ever hear anyone bitch about their job there.

it's all about the franchise's culture, from top to bottom.

[Pidge]

Ha, I started a thread about Ratliff in the NFL section and asked the same question. Was pretty odd watching him tackle.

Ultimately, the Franchise takes on the direction and attitude of the ownership. This filters down to the FO (if indeed there is such a thing at the Franchise) and to the coaches and then finally the players.

Mike Brown isn't interested in winning, why would anyone, after they've been exposed to this atmosphere for any amount of time, give a s**t either?I mean, this is the NFL. Even the guys on the cusp of the squad earn about half a million of year. Most stopped doing this purely out of a love of the game a long while ago. Pick up your cheque and keep on keeping on.

[derekshank]

I saw Ratliff make some awesome hits and tackle this past weekend. He looked 80% better then he did when he played for us. O’Neal looked like crap playing for us, and yet he’s kicking butt with the Pat’s. Dillon had a bad attitude with the Bengals, then goes to the Pats and earns a super bowl ring. Who else is out that that we released and is now player to the level as a professional football player? Just unbelievable.

If Ratliff was so great, he wouldn't have been released by the Colts three weeks ago (then re-signed out of desperation). And that interception he got was his first since '05. Let's not get carried away.

Dillon? He's a douche bag. What do you want to know? Dillon always performed well for the Bengals. He was just a douche... and Rudi was better at that stage. Are you just mad because he performed well on a team that was already better than Cincinnati?

O'Neal? He hasn't been great in New England. He's been mediocre at best. But eve if he was lights out like you contend. He's Randy Moss. He performs well initially, then becomes a malcontent and stops playing hard. Deltha came from Denver and played one of the best CB seasons ever. I'm sure Bronco fans were wondering why he couldn't do that for them. Nothing got by him. And then he slowly stopped playing hard to the point that he was useless.

This s**t happens with malcontents.

I don't buy the idea of a culture of losing. The players on this team didn't play for the Bengals in the 90's. And the Bengals were still thought of as a tough team to beat as recently as last year. The problem is that this team is built around position players who tend to be prima donnas, so the culture is "me first." A lot of these guys are out for themselves, not for the team.

[derekshank]

Wow.

[derekshank]

I just checked back...

[derekshank]

...to find that...

[derekshank]

...when the board wasn't letting me post...

[derekshank]

...it was in actuality...

[derekshank]

...posting the same message 7 times.

[derekshank]

I apologize for the inconvenience... as well for my theft of HairOnFire's idea on how to deal with the problem.

[TJJackson]

DT Kelly Gregg

OG Mike Goff

scrubs for us

all pro with Ravens (KG) or Chargers (MG)

[HairOnFire]

I apologize for the inconvenience... as well for my theft of HairOnFire's idea on how to deal with the problem.

What can we do? It's almost like the website itself has become....bengalized.

[volcom69]

Well i think we need to blame coaching for this, just like other teams in the league i live in PA near philly and theres this guy named Jaqua Parker who was no one but then goes to the eagles then all of a sudden is a star there. I think this just says the coaches we have now and the coaches they had before are not very good at teaching guys how to play the game. So i think it all has to do with the crappy coaching that has gone on here for a very long time, and not giving other guys a chance to play to see what they can do.

[derekshank]

DT Kelly Gregg

OG Mike Goff

scrubs for us

all pro with Ravens (KG) or Chargers (MG)

Tory James and Deltha O'Neal both had their very best seasons (by far) in stripes. Reggie Kelly became a great blocker with Cincinnati, and there is the obvious example of Rich Braham (complete scrub previously, all-pro for Cincy).

I suppose you could try to make an argument that more go the other way... You might be right. I don't know, and I'm not going to try to go through Bengals history to fight with you... but this is kind of the way the NFL goes. It goes both ways. The Bengals have been both victims and beneficiaries of this trend, as has every other NFL team.

[ArmyBengal]

There are all sorts of trade offs in this regard. What if Benson becomes the kind of back that most people are climbing his nuts over ?? Who gets the kudos for that ?? And does that make him NOT a scrub when he played in Chicago ?? Deltha is a douche and NOT playing anywhere near good ball. He has one or two good plays followed by getting toasted BAD !!!

[HoosierCat]

And in the former Bengals Dep't of Irony, there's Landon Johnson. Leaves Cincy for Carolina, despite the Bengals matching the Panthers' offer, because (supposedly) the Panthers promise him a starting gig.

But he can't beat out Na'il Diggs so he's again a backup/teams guy in Carolina. 11 tackles on the year.

Had he stayed here, with the injury to Rivers, he'd be starting...

Of course, Carolina has a much better record. So there's that.

[DesperateDerelict]

I don't buy the idea of a culture of losing. The players on this team didn't play for the Bengals in the 90's. And the Bengals were still thought of as a tough team to beat as recently as last year. The problem is that this team is built around position players who tend to be prima donnas, so the culture is "me first." A lot of these guys are out for themselves, not for the team.

What??? The???? F&%K??? Many of the players on the Pats or Colts weren't there 5 years ago - so that's not a culture of winning?

That has to be one the stupidest things posted on the forum in this lost year / decade / Mike Brown's lifetime.

[derekshank]

I don't buy the idea of a culture of losing. The players on this team didn't play for the Bengals in the 90's. And the Bengals were still thought of as a tough team to beat as recently as last year. The problem is that this team is built around position players who tend to be prima donnas, so the culture is "me first." A lot of these guys are out for themselves, not for the team.

What??? The???? F&%K??? Many of the players on the Pats or Colts weren't there 5 years ago - so that's not a culture of winning?

That has to be one the stupidest things posted on the forum in this lost year / decade / Mike Brown's lifetime.

Whatever dude. The vast majority of the leadership of the Patriots and Colts on those teams remains... not to mention the coaches. You clearly have the mindset of a fan - so you can't see the world from any view other than from your own tiny little perspective. But do me a favor and think about something for a second...

Do you think Tony Romo and Terrell Owens sit in their locker room starring at pictures of Troy Aikman and Michael Irvin to get confidence. After all... they do play for the same team. So they must have some sort of eternal connection, and those years of winning in the 90's probably will help them propel themselves to a Super Bowl Championship of their own... right?

The players of the 90's and the players of today have nothing to do with each other other than the uniform they wear and the city they played in. There is no lingering culture of losing in Cincinnati other than in the minds of the fans. Carson Palmer wasn't the QB for the Bengals in the 90's... so why should he feel like a loser? Yes... the Bengals suck. But to suggest that they suck because the Bengals also sucked 15 years ago is ridiculous.

Palmer's record as a starter is 32-33. Perhaps not elite, but it in no way resembles the 55-137 record the Bengals posted in the 12 years previous to drafting him. If you want to point the finger, you can point it at ownership, drafting, coaching, injuries, underachieving... Hell, there's an endless list. But the fact that the Bengals were 3-13 in 1993 has nothing to do with it.

Or perhaps I'm wrong, and in '05 when they went 11-5 they were all reminiscing about watching Boomer Esiason back in '88 from their bassinets.

[HoosierCat]

The players of the 90's and the players of today have nothing to do with each other other than the uniform they wear and the city they played in. There is no lingering culture of losing in Cincinnati other than in the minds of the fans. Carson Palmer wasn't the QB for the Bengals in the 90's... so why should he feel like a loser? Yes... the Bengals suck. But to suggest that they suck because the Bengals also sucked 15 years ago is ridiculous.

I agree that the suggestion "they suck because the Bengals also sucked 15 years ago" is ridiculous. But I disagree with the assertion that there "is no lingering culture of losing in Cincinnati other than in the minds of the fans." There's certainly something lingering through all those years: our old pal Mike Brown and the rest of the family front office.

The culture of any organization is very much influenced by (if not in fact set by) top management. And a lot of the same stuff that went on 15 years ago and disillusioned players still goes on today. It's still an organization that lacks urgency, but is always quick with an excuse. It's still an organization that rarely seems to do much to improve, despite consistently poor performance -- few difference-making FAs, no additional scouts, coaches who win 3 or 4 or 5 games in a year and don't get fired, etc. It's still an organization known to let its own valuable free agents to walk instead of paying market rate. It's still an organization that routinely has problems signing its first round picks.

Players see all this. They talk to buddies on other teams, hear how great it is in city X and compare that to Cincy. They travel to city X and see that nice indoor practice field the other team has. They look toward FA and see what others at their level are getting, and then hear from their agent that the Bengals are demanding a "hometown discount."

Rookies and FAs who come in don't think of themselves or their new team as losers, I'm sure. But a couple years in this atmosphere and it's easy to see how players get bungalized.

[gregstephens]

The players of the 90's and the players of today have nothing to do with each other other than the uniform they wear and the city they played in. There is no lingering culture of losing in Cincinnati other than in the minds of the fans. Carson Palmer wasn't the QB for the Bengals in the 90's... so why should he feel like a loser? Yes... the Bengals suck. But to suggest that they suck because the Bengals also sucked 15 years ago is ridiculous.

I agree that the suggestion "they suck because the Bengals also sucked 15 years ago" is ridiculous. But I disagree with the assertion that there "is no lingering culture of losing in Cincinnati other than in the minds of the fans." There's certainly something lingering through all those years: our old pal Mike Brown and the rest of the family front office.

The culture of any organization is very much influenced by (if not in fact set by) top management. And a lot of the same stuff that went on 15 years ago and disillusioned players still goes on today. It's still an organization that lacks urgency, but is always quick with an excuse. It's still an organization that rarely seems to do much to improve, despite consistently poor performance -- few difference-making FAs, no additional scouts, coaches who win 3 or 4 or 5 games in a year and don't get fired, etc. It's still an organization known to let its own valuable free agents to walk instead of paying market rate. It's still an organization that routinely has problems signing its first round picks.

Players see all this. They talk to buddies on other teams, hear how great it is in city X and compare that to Cincy. They travel to city X and see that nice indoor practice field the other team has. They look toward FA and see what others at their level are getting, and then hear from their agent that the Bengals are demanding a "hometown discount."

Rookies and FAs who come in don't think of themselves or their new team as losers, I'm sure. But a couple years in this atmosphere and it's easy to see how players get bungalized.

Absolutely. I can't understand this either, but there is something in this team's genetics. We don't suck because David Klingler was here or anything like that, but for the past 18 years, people don't want to be here in SoP's travelling circus. I mean, crap, even the Cardinals are pulling it together. Between us and Detroit, we are the two schleprock teams in the NFL.

[HairOnFire]

The players of the 90's and the players of today have nothing to do with each other other than the uniform they wear and the city they played in.

A snapshot from Day One of the Marvin Lewis Era.

"Nobody is jinxed, and places don't lose football games. People lose football games."

There is no lingering culture of losing in Cincinnati other than in the minds of the fans.

I often wonder if that isn't enough.

[HoosierCat]

There is no lingering culture of losing in Cincinnati other than in the minds of the fans.

I often wonder if that isn't enough.

Well, if the 'zone here is at all reflective of overall Bengals fandom -- and I don't know that it is, but I haven't seen any evidence that it isn't -- I think that idea is hard to credit. Sure, we're pretty negative now at 1-8. But it was just a few short months ago that the few hangdogs and mopers on this board -- names that are coming to mind include HairOnFire, membengal, billybroom -- were busily trying to disabuse the majority that the Bengals had a shot at the playoffs this season. Or at least that anyone should care.

Hope springs eternal among (most) Bengals fans. No matter how bad they do in any season, Bengals fans are always finding reasons to believe by May at the latest. Even as Chad chattered, TJ went AWOL, Simpson got drafted in the second, Marvin asked Chad for some love at minicamp, Henry got busted, Henry got cut, Henry got re-signed -- we believed. Crappy preseason game after crappy preseason game, we still believed (hello again, billy!). Even after the first couple games, we found things to make us think prosperity was just around the corner.

Oh well. I suppose you can call us homers and idiots and all that. But embodiments of a culture of losing? I'm not seeing it.

[derekshank]

There's certainly something lingering through all those years: our old pal Mike Brown and the rest of the family front office.

I agree completely... but that is something very different from saying that there is a culture of losing with the players. The fact that there is no consistent plan with which to create a quality product on the field is very different than saying that the players on this team assume they will lose simply because of the colors they are wearing. Yes... there are plenty of reasons that the team has been bad for so long. But the suggestion that there is an aura of losing in the locker room is just silly.

Again Hoosier... I'm not sure I disagree with anything you said. I think there is a lot of truth in what you posted. But I don't believe for a second that the players think that they can't win because they lack the long tradition of winning that exists in some other franchises. And that's really all I was saying. My last post was just an attempt to defend myself from DesperateDerelict claiming that my earlier post was "the stupidest thing posted on the forum in Mike Brown's lifetime."

[derekshank]

Oh well. I suppose you can call us homers and idiots and all that. But embodiments of a culture of losing? I'm not seeing it.

Well... As you eluded to earlier, I doubt that the fans here at the 'zone are accurate reflections of Bengal Fandom as a whole. For most Bengal fans I know (and I know quite a few) '05 came as quite a surprise... '06 was a disappointment... '07 was the beginning of the end... and '08 is back to business as usual.

As far as I can tell, the when the vast majority of Bengal fans think of their team, they picture a team that tops out at about 4 wins a season.