I can't believe we have another hold out

[walzav29]

The Bengals badly need Keith Rivers, and here we are again with what seems to be our annual holdout. This hurts.

[Defender]

The Bengals badly need Keith Rivers, and here we are again with what seems to be our annual holdout. This hurts.

You're surprised? I would think you've been a Bengals fan long enough to be surprised if a 1st rounder IS NOT a training camp holdout...

[walzav29]

I thought that when Marvin 1st got here, it showed things were changing. They had Carson signed before the draft. I thought Marvin was bringing that same tough attitude into this season, that he brought his 1st season. I think the problem the last 2 seasons the team got away from him. I thought he was regaining control with the releases of Henry and Thurman and the way he controlled CJ. Rivers is a huge part of the plan.

[Ickey44]

Yeah, but Marvin doesn't have anything to do with contracts getting signed. That's the Blackburn's department I believe.

[membengal]

It is what it is.

Worry about that which you can control.

This ain't one of those.

[kevinc1129]

I thought that when Marvin 1st got here, it showed things were changing. They had Carson signed before the draft. I thought Marvin was bringing that same tough attitude into this season, that he brought his 1st season. I think the problem the last 2 seasons the team got away from him. I thought he was regaining control with the releases of Henry and Thurman and the way he controlled CJ. Rivers is a huge part of the plan.

This has nothing to do with Marvin...he has no control over the financial aspects of the team or the game.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

It is what it is.

Worry about that which you can control.

This ain't one of those.

Marv? Is that you?

Saying the Bengals' have no control over contract negotiations regarding someone they drafted, is just an excuse.

[TJJackson]

If he's not in camp within the week, you can probably cross him off as having an impact in 2008

I know I will

When a player finds it more important to claw an extra 50 or 100 thou away from his new employer when he's already making millions, rather than come in and HELP his team win games, I pretty much wash my hands of them. Players like this are part of the problem, not the solution.

Ah well.

[walzav29]

There is no denying how important he is to this defense. This should be simple. Mayo is signed at 10. How far apart can they be?

[membengal]

It is what it is.

Worry about that which you can control.

This ain't one of those.

Marv? Is that you?

Saying the Bengals' have no control over contract negotiations regarding someone they drafted, is just an excuse.

C'mon Shula, don't be dense.

Is anyone on this board associated or a member of the Bengals front office? No? Then the Rivers situation is not one that any of us control.

Indeed, we have a history of knowing that the Bengals are generally late to this party. And no amount of screaming into the wind will change that. So...I choose not to bunch panties over it. But, hey, if everyone else wants to bunch their pantaloons, so be it.

But this is the same as it ever is, year after year. So, again, why worry about that which you cannot change?

[HoosierCat]

There is no denying how important he is to this defense. This should be simple. Mayo is signed at 10. How far apart can they be?

The trouble is that Mayo only got a 6% hike, versus some guys above Rivers who are getting 20% increases. Plus there are several deals immediately below Mayo's that are actually larger in terms of overall money. So the slot is all screwed up this year.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

When a player finds it more important to claw an extra 50 or 100 thou away from his new employer when he's already making millions, rather than come in and HELP his team win games, I pretty much wash my hands of them. Players like this are part of the problem, not the solution.

Tales two to tango. How about if I re-write that?

When a team finds it more important to claw an extra 50 or 100 thou away from a rookie who is negotiating the most important contract of his life, rather than get the most important pick in camp to HELP you win games...

...well, we ought to wash our hands of them. Owners like this are part of the problem, not the solution.

Does that work too? Who do you blame more for clawing over $50,000, an owner who's been wealthy since birth or some kid who's been (for most NFL rookies) somewhere between poor and middle class for his whole life?

One time you can blame the player and his agent, but it seems like the Bengals *always* have a holdout. And isn't Rivers slotted now?

[HoosierCat]

And isn't Rivers slotted now?

Not really. That's part of the problem. Here, look at the numbers yourself:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d...mp;confirm=true

Thats a pretty steep drop from 6 to 10. More, two of the next four deals, Nos. 11 and 13, are actually for more total money than Mayo got at 10.

While I think the holdout sucks, I can understand both sides' reluctance to get a deal done right now.

[Spor_tees]

Here is the problem, in this day and age player contracts are pretty much a moot point, because they rarely play out the entire contract. They either under-perform and get shipped out, or they play well and expect to get a renegotiated contract. Rivers just needs to sign on the dotted line, get into camp and play like a #1 pick should. If he can do that, in 2-3 years down the line before his contract is even up, he will get an even bigger pay day. Now if he waits to get into camp, holding out for more money, and doesn't get on the field and make a significant impact, then this first year will be a wash and will only make it a year longer before he could get that larger contract extension. The Bengals just need to give him a decent signing bonus to put up front money in his pocket, along with a reasonable annual salary, and let him know how the "new NFL" works. Contracts are no longer contracts, they are just pieces of paper with a couple signatures on it that are about as long lasting as fruit stripes gum.

[TJJackson]

Tales two to tango. How about if I re-write that?

You can re-write to all you want, but you're missing several points

First is the salary cap. A player who wants to win knows this is a team sport, and that he has to have quality players around him o do so. The team has to pay those players. A player who damages his own career, as Rivers seems to be starting right now, is also damaging the team's ability to sign other uality players around him. Said another way - Mike Brown actually DOES need that last 100k more than Rivers - because of the salary cap. Said another way - Mike Brown actually DOES need that last 100k more than Rivers - not to feed his face or get his 93 Taurus fixed - but rather because of the salary cap

Second is: enough is enough. I am sure Rivers will end up with several million dollars in the bank - with or without that last 100k or so. At that point, I lose all sympathy for the player - they have more than enough money to live on for the rest of their lives (assuming one does not live their life as Chris Henry did/does, which I do indeed take as assumed) and the 100k is not going to make much of a difference to Rivers. However, the team having cap room and him having all his practices DO matter......it matters for the team's chances of winning, now and in the future.

[HoosierCat]

Second is: enough is enough. I am sure Rivers will end up with several million dollars in the bank - with or without that last 100k or so. At that point, I lose all sympathy for the player

That's fine, but that doesn't appear to be the situation here. The trouble right now is that there's a $30 million spread Rivers' deal could fall into.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'd be interested in more info about the hangup, specifically who's looking for what in terms of guaranteed money. The picks may not be completely slotted, but they define a nice exponential decay curve from 6 until about 14. I have a pretty good idea of how much guaranteed money Rivers should get, which would make it easy to see which party is being the assclown.

As per the pro-team stance...

First is the salary cap. A player who wants to win knows this is a team sport, and that he has to have quality players around him o do so. The team has to pay those players. A player who damages his own career, as Rivers seems to be starting right now, is also damaging the team's ability to sign other uality players around him. Said another way - Mike Brown actually DOES need that last 100k more than Rivers - because of the salary cap. Said another way - Mike Brown actually DOES need that last 100k more than Rivers - not to feed his face or get his 93 Taurus fixed - but rather because of the salary cap

Yeah, well, I haven't seen too many players making those sorts of philanthropic salary cap gestures, including Peyton Manning and Carson Palmer among others, so I'm not buying it. These rookies have just as much right as other players to negotiate. I might say more, since they have absolutely no say in where they end up, and because for many players the rookie contract is the only one you get, due to injury or whatever. You need to take care of yourself, and in many cases, your family, first. From your argument, former 1st-overall picks like Carson should *definitely* re-sign for the league minimum, since they've already banked their millions, and sparing all that cap room would make it easier to win the Super Bowl. Right?

The owners are pushing it as far as they can, the players have the right to do the same. Do recall, also, the owners are the ones who wanted the salary cap, so that whole argument becomes more than a little disingenuous. In the end, both the player and owner hurt themselves by a protracted holdout, but sometimes it takes a brief one to get the owner to stop pinching pennies. Of course, other times the agent holds the player out until he's slotted, at which point the agent's being a jackass.

Second is: enough is enough. I am sure Rivers will end up with several million dollars in the bank - with or without that last 100k or so. At that point, I lose all sympathy for the player - they have more than enough money to live on for the rest of their lives. However, the team having cap room and him having all his practices DO matter......it matters for the team's chances of winning, now and in the future.

How much of that money is absolutely guaranteed? How much will he lose in taxes? How many family members will he legitimately need to take care of? What will the inflation rate be for the last 40-60 years of his life if he has a career-ending injury? Suddenly all those millions don't look as big as they were. Assuming about $15M in guaranteed money, after taxes that becomes about $7M. Let's say he had a catastrophic injury and never made another dime. To live off the interest of that for the rest of his life at a consistent standard of living (meaning he'd have to let the principal grow at about 3% per year) would mean assuming a 3-4% draw-out per year, which in 2008 numbers would give him somewhere around $250,000/year. That sounds like a lot, but if that's what you're living on forever and possibly trying to support multiple family members and send your kids to college, I can absolutely see where the rookies are coming from.

You can make light of it, but David Pollack injuries do happen. And that's when the player is very glad that his agent haggled to make more of the money guaranteed.

This is never as simple as saying "the player should take what the team offers and LIKE it." Especially when the team ends up in a holdout situation EVERY YEAR. At some point, your history comes into play. If other teams can get picks to camp on time, Mikey can too.

[combatbengal]

I was drafted by the Bengals this year as a water boy and am expected to cover the left side of the bench. I'm holding out for better benefits myself. I'd like to have a parking spot a little bit closer to the stadium. They have me 10 blocks away, while the players are on the stadium grounds. I want pocket warmers for those cold games. My hands will get extremely cold carrying around those water bottles for those professionals. I hear how other water boys are treated throughout the NFL and I think I'm entitled to what they are making. After all, I was a 1st round pick and am considered at the level as the famous Bobby Boucher.

[HoosierCat]

I'd be interested in more info about the hangup, specifically who's looking for what in terms of guaranteed money. The picks may not be completely slotted, but they define a nice exponential decay curve from 6 until about 14. I have a pretty good idea of how much guaranteed money Rivers should get, which would make it easy to see which party is being the assclown.

My bet isn't that the guaranteed money, which is a lot closer than the total coin, isn't the big issue. At a guess, I suspect that it's the total money and the nature of the incentives. Someone mentioned elsewhere that a lot of the money in those Nos. 5 and 6 deals is incentive and performance-based. And you know how the Bengals feel about "log" incentives and easily triggered escalators.

Whatever the delay is, tho, it was good to hear Marvin say today that Rivers is not far from camp and will be in quickly once a deal is reached. My bet still is that we'll have to wait for Ellis and Harvey to come in. Nothing seems to be happening in Jax, but the Saints are reported to be closing in on a deal, but it's still in a "sometime this week" framework.

[TippCityRick]

That's fine, but that doesn't appear to be the situation here. The trouble right now is that there's a $30 million spread Rivers' deal could fall into.

I think it's best to make sure you aren't picking next to the Patriots in the first round. It seems they have an ability to get guys to sign for less . . . at least at the start.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

My bet isn't that the guaranteed money, which is a lot closer than the total coin, isn't the big issue. At a guess, I suspect that it's the total money and the nature of the incentives. Someone mentioned elsewhere that a lot of the money in those Nos. 5 and 6 deals is incentive and performance-based. And you know how the Bengals feel about "log" incentives and easily triggered escalators.

Then it should still be relatively easy - go off of guaranteed money + "log" bonuses and interpolate between the players who are signed. If it's about the total amount of the deal, who cares - he'll renegotiate it by his third year anyway, in all likelihood. The total amount of the deal serves no purpose other than to advertise the agent's services. Give the agent the number he needs to advertise since it's not real money - remember Nate Clements' $80M contract that he'll never see the last 2 years of?

[Sandwedge]

One of the biggest problem is picks 1 thru 6 got a 10% increase over lastyear.. Ellis and Harvey are wanting 20%... Mayo got a 6% increase and the concensous is that was a bad deal for him... I'm sure MB and company have a 10% increase on the table and Rivers and his agent are waiting to see what happens, maybe getting a bigger increase... Funny how people want a "Rookie Salary Pay scale", yet they scream it's the teams fault when rookies don't want to sign a deal that is slotted...

[richmond_mat]

One of the biggest problem is picks 1 thru 6 got a 10% increase over lastyear.. Ellis and Harvey are wanting 20%... Mayo got a 6% increase and the concensous is that was a bad deal for him... I'm sure MB and company have a 10% increase on the table and Rivers and his agent are waiting to see what happens, maybe getting a bigger increase... Funny how people want a "Rookie Salary Pay scale", yet they scream it's the teams fault when rookies don't want to sign a deal that is slotted...

I do not believe the rookies in round one or two are complaining,

unless they already have signed there deals.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

This is what happens when you draft for desperate need every year in the 1st round I guess - player's agent knows he has the Bengals' bent over and will give it to them. W/O Rivers and maybe with him, possibly the worst LB corps in the NFL, and Rivers is the only upgrade they went after after losing their leading tackler.

Yeah, this is the Bengals. Time to ante up, compromise and get it done Bungals. Rivers can't afford to miss even a week of camp.

[TJJackson]

*shrug*

I stand firm on whatever the difference is between the offer on the table and what he gets, it will not make a significant difference to the player's finances.

On the other hand, the lost practice time WILL hurt the team.

I'm just about done with Mr Keith Rivers, thank you. The hell with him.