Coaching question

[bryce40]

Let me apologize if this has been discussed, but wasn't M. Lewis known as a defensive coaching genius. If so how is it that are D never has improved under him but we had a powerful offense until it regressed last year? The more I have thought about this the more I feel even though I like Marvin he should've been fired due to the D's non-improvement which is what it appeared to me to be the reason he was hired. What' is your thoughts?

[HoosierCat]

I would say the biggest factor is a combination of bad luck and bad decisions in the 2003-2005 drafts.

In 2003, Marvin took over on a team with a poor D, and while they spent in FA on defense, they used their first 3 picks on offense. When they finally took a defender in the 4th, it was Dennis Weathersby, a roll of the dice that was foiled by his horrific luck.

In 2004, they again spent their first on offense (Perry...ugh), then plunked down two seconds and two thirds on defense. But one of each, Keiwan Ratliff and Caleb Miller, turned out to be junk picks, and the other two, Madieu and Landon, never developed to the point were they justified a big second contract.

In 2005, they spent their first two picks on Pollack and Odell. Pollack looked promising, but a broken neck may end his career. Odell was a high-risk pick that blew up in their face.

They have done a decent job of finding able defenders in lower rounds -- Geathers, Peko and Ndukwe, for instance -- but you just can't skip defense on (the old) day 1 the first time around, then spend a first, three seconds, and two thirds the next two drafts and have them all go south, and expect any defensive improvement.

[bryce40]

I would say the biggest factor is a combination of bad luck and bad decisions in the 2003-2005 drafts.

In 2003, Marvin took over on a team with a poor D, and while they spent in FA on defense, they used their first 3 picks on offense. When they finally took a defender in the 4th, it was Dennis Weathersby, a roll of the dice that was foiled by his horrific luck.

In 2004, they again spent their first on offense (Perry...ugh), then plunked down two seconds and two thirds on defense. But one of each, Keiwan Ratliff and Caleb Miller, turned out to be junk picks, and the other two, Madieu and Landon, never developed to the point were they justified a big second contract.

In 2005, they spent their first two picks on Pollack and Odell. Pollack looked promising, but a broken neck may end his career. Odell was a high-risk pick that blew up in their face.

They have done a decent job of finding able defenders in lower rounds -- Geathers, Peko and Ndukwe, for instance -- but you just can't skip defense on (the old) day 1 the first time around, then spend a first, three seconds, and two thirds the next two drafts and have them all go south, and expect any defensive improvement.

agreed with bad luck and bad decisions; but I always thought being a D-genious meant maximizing the most of the talent your players have and I dont feel Marvin did that.

[Wraith]

Marvin's defense has always been built around playmaking linebackers (Ray Lewis in Baltimore and Lavar Arrington in Washington). I think he thought he could convince Takeo to stick around when he took the job, didn't happen. Then he thought he had two guys that were going to be his superstars (Pollack and Thurman). Pollack's injury was a freak accident and Thurman's inability to be under control off-the-field cost this team two playoff runs. No denying Thurman's ability on-the-field. They took a gamble on greatness and got blasted for it. He then went for Brooks because he was desperate to get talent at linebacker. He also targeted Manny Lawson in '06 only to see him get snagged by San Fran two picks ahead of us. If he can get Pollack, Thurman, Brooks et al on the field you would see a top ten defense until then *shrug*

[HoosierCat]

agreed with bad luck and bad decisions; but I always thought being a D-genious meant maximizing the most of the talent your players have and I dont feel Marvin did that.

Well, in order to make the most of your talent, you have to have talent to begin with. And that's the point: thanks to so many draft misfires and injury misfortunes, the Bengals have been forced to rely on low-rounders, waiver wire pickups, rejects from other teams and Old Washed Up Dudes. There's not been much to maximize.

No matter how much you trick it out, you aren't going to win the Indy 500 with a Ford Escort.

[JoePong]

It snot too complicated. Injuries. Plus the fact we don't have a big time DT or pass rusher. You can only do so much with chopped liver.

[BengalszoneBilly]

It snot too complicated.

Making sense of your posts is. (Somebody hand him a kleenex for crissakes!) In another post you're ripping on the fans and city of Cincinnati, then I find you here defending an injured defensive unit. Pick a side already. It might look good for your total lack of integrity.

[chrishcovga]

I honestly don't have too many issues with the Bengals coaching staff.

Medical staff Yes !!

Playbook use Yes !!

*While I don't like Bob Bratkowski, it's not because we don't have a pretty successful product ( offense ) on the field. I just think he's predictable.

- It's kind of like boxing. If you know what punch is coming, it's easy to dodge it and counter. He's not a very creative playcaller.

I'm not asking for the " wishy-washy " days of old Riverfront Stadium, but Just because it's 4th and 1, lining up in Goal line makes it kind of difficult to run right at a defense that is stacked at the line of scrimmage !!

And most importantly we Pass too much !!! - Injured or not, we have some very good road graders on this squad, and when you get a team tired, Beat them down !! Run'em off the field.

- The Finesse cute stuff always gets us in trouble. You can see it coming a mile away.

Defense is a philosophy. - " I want to hit the other guy so hard, that he'll go crying home to mama! " Get some players that can run, hit, and could scare a hungry junk yard dog from a bone with their own hands !

So Here's to a healthy '08, no matter who's on the field...

[cincy9275]

i think bresh was a very very big part of why the defense stunk so bad. i believe that adding zimmer to run things on defense was the best offseason move we have made so far. i really think in time he will get the most out of what we have. i am excited to see what zimmer can do. then IF we can get players like odell back and brooks healthy. we may even break the top 20 on defense this coming season.

[bengalsfansince68]

And most importantly we Pass too much !!! - Injured or not, we have some very good road graders on this squad, and when you get a team tired, Beat them down !! Run'em off the field.

I have been saying it for years.

The way to make a team tired in the fourth quarter is to run it up their asses for the first 3 quarters...

The way to beat them down in the fourth quarter is to continue to pound it up their ass.

It has been the essence of winning football for decades.

Thanks for recognizing the essence Chrish.

[GapControl]

what has zimmer done that bresh hadn't done when we offered him a job?

[BengalszoneBilly]

what has zimmer done that bresh hadn't done when we offered him a job?

Breathed through his nose.

[CarsonDaMan]

Almost any professional coach will look like a genius if he has good players to work with.

Marvin was in Baltimore with a unit full of hall of famers and pro bowlers. Any halfway decent coach would have a hard time failing under those circumstances.

I always chuckle when i hear a guy called an offensive or defensive guru because it's really just BS. Some guys might have a bit of a better feel for calling a game but the best D Coordinator in the NFL wouldnt have made this Bengal D look good. Look at Dick LeBeau for example. He was in Pittsburgh lighting up the league. Then he comes back to Cincy and the defense was just average. Goes back to Pittsburgh and they're top notch again. His system didn't change but the level of talent he had did.

Good coaches in the NFL won't have much of an advantage over other teams as far as X's and O's go. What makes others more succesful is the ability to motivate players and maximize the amount of preparation and detail that is put in. Marvin gets high grades in those areas but the amount of turds that this team has brought in has severely underminded his ability to get the job done here.

He may be losing this team but you can't blame the defensive performance on him alone. To me that falls more on scouting and bad luck.

[BengalszoneBilly]

To me that falls more on scouting and bad luck.

To me that sounds like a cop out. If I told my boss I couldn't fix the aircraft I was working on because the technical notes weren't updated, or I had the bad luck of continually dropping my tools, the only thing I would hold is the same thing Chucky boy does. A pink slip.

[CarsonDaMan]

To me that falls more on scouting and bad luck.

To me that sounds like a cop out. If I told my boss I couldn't fix the aircraft I was working on because the technical notes weren't updated, or I had the bad luck of continually dropping my tools, the only thing I would hold is the same thing Chucky boy does. A pink slip.

If you don't have the parts you're not fixing the aircraft. You can have bad luck when a brand new engine blows out. I don't want to make excuses for Chucky because yes he was a waste of sperm but it you still can't turn a hamburger into prime rib.

[BengalszoneBilly]

If you don't have the parts you're not fixing the aircraft. You can have bad luck when a brand new engine blows out. I don't want to make excuses for Chucky because yes he was a waste of sperm but it you still can't turn a hamburger into prime rib.

I'm not a parts changer. Any former burger flipper can do that. I'm a technician. I tune the system as present to work at optimum level. This is a concept Bresnahan could never grasp.

There is a difference, and I hope Zimmer is it.

[CarsonDaMan]

If you don't have the parts you're not fixing the aircraft. You can have bad luck when a brand new engine blows out. I don't want to make excuses for Chucky because yes he was a waste of sperm but it you still can't turn a hamburger into prime rib.

I'm not a parts changer. Any former burger flipper can do that. I'm a technician. I tune the system as present to work at optimum level. This is a concept Bresnahan could never grasp.

There is a difference, and I hope Zimmer is it.

I'm with you on that. Just the only problem is the optimum level for the talent of last year was no better than 20th in the league. And it's not really fair for Marvin to take heat for that. People think it should be top five or ten because he is considered a "guru" when the the fact is the talent level is no where near that.

From everything I've heard Chuck tried to make things more complicated than it needed to be and pretty much outsmarted himself... if that's possible. He was unable to establish any kind of identity and he needed to go. But unless a pro bowler or two falls in there lap this year there is only so much Zimmer can do with it.

[kingwilly]

Two things strike me about how ML has handled this D since arriving.

The first is that he and Frazier ended up parting ways after showing legitimate improvement and putting a very opportunisitic unit on the field. It sure seemed like ML was the one who forced the end but for reasons we can only speculate. I'm not saying the Frazier D was great but they certainly made the most of guys like Justin, Thurman, Deltha and Geathers. Part of building a successful system is making the most out of the parts you have, which in many ways means you must KNOW what you have. I think Frazier knew what he had and put in place a system that got just about as much as could be expected out of it. Save a few double-pump brain lapses by Tory James and a handful of explosive runs, that D in 05 was actually decent. But ML saw fit to cut Frazier loose after a very short time and give Bres a whirl.

The second thing is that ML permitted Bres far more latitude relative to failure than any of us, or any other NFL team, would permit. Year 1, given moderate injuries/depletion, maybe he gets another chance. In 07, frankly, I would have axed Bres after losing the Cleveland shootout. Utter and complete failure. Once Bres realized he'd been given more rope than Frazier, I felt he did at least try (for what that is worth) but suffered from a combo of massive injuries and continued systemic failure to adjust in-game or even stick with things that worked. How many times did we see this D switch from pressure to other-zip-code zones? Did Bres really thnk Justin could get pressure or that Thornton and B-rob could fill the gaps in the middle? The D was a fools product but the man at the top must take the blame for much of what was pathetic persistence, doing the same over and over, expecting a different result. The D had its moments and seemingly got better once Dhani gelled but how long could this go on?

I feel ML has this and maybe next season to fully realize this teams winning potential. This O is as god as any. Vertainly good enough to win the AFC north and compete with the Indy's, SD'd and NE's (offensively) and we all must acknowledge that the success of the O is not due to ML. The biggest task that ML has is getting the right guy, maybe Zimmer, to undertake a scheme/talent merge and build a defensive system that can exhbit the desire to win, the flexibiity to adjust and the guts to suffer more than the opponent. Short of this, and he will be gone. ANY coach can get to 7-9 and 8-8 with this O or close versions of it.

[BengalszoneBilly]

I'm with you on that. Just the only problem is the optimum level for the talent of last year was no better than 20th in the league.

20th? You are being far too generous Mr. Man. They faired 27th overall defensively. That leaves few teams beneath them, and that's what disturbs me most.

Sure, Marvin must shoulder some blame in this because the buck stops at his desk, but it's hard to deny Chuck hung some afterburners on it on the way there. His defensive schemes never took into account the offensive scheme they faced from one week to the next. He thought if it worked once, they'd work every time. Obviously not so.

In USMC terms, he couldn't improvise, adapt, or overcome.

[HoosierCat]

The first is that he and Frazier ended up parting ways after showing legitimate improvement and putting a very opportunisitic unit on the field. It sure seemed like ML was the one who forced the end but for reasons we can only speculate. I'm not saying the Frazier D was great but they certainly made the most of guys like Justin, Thurman, Deltha and Geathers. Part of building a successful system is making the most out of the parts you have, which in many ways means you must KNOW what you have. I think Frazier knew what he had and put in place a system that got just about as much as could be expected out of it. Save a few double-pump brain lapses by Tory James and a handful of explosive runs, that D in 05 was actually decent. But ML saw fit to cut Frazier loose after a very short time and give Bres a whirl.

Speaking of Leslie, the Vikes just added assistant head coach to his list of titles yesterday...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3302542

...yet this guy wasn't good enough for us...

[kingwilly]

The first is that he and Frazier ended up parting ways after showing legitimate improvement and putting a very opportunisitic unit on the field. It sure seemed like ML was the one who forced the end but for reasons we can only speculate. I'm not saying the Frazier D was great but they certainly made the most of guys like Justin, Thurman, Deltha and Geathers. Part of building a successful system is making the most out of the parts you have, which in many ways means you must KNOW what you have. I think Frazier knew what he had and put in place a system that got just about as much as could be expected out of it. Save a few double-pump brain lapses by Tory James and a handful of explosive runs, that D in 05 was actually decent. But ML saw fit to cut Frazier loose after a very short time and give Bres a whirl.

Speaking of Leslie, the Vikes just added assistant head coach to his list of titles yesterday...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3302542

...yet this guy wasn't good enough for us...

yep.

watch Minny get a guy like Flacco or Brohm late r1 and then add some more WR talent and make a run over the next few years.

Some teams are moving forward, some are moving backward, some are in limbo....I wonder which category we'd all say the Bengals are in?