I have an interesting thought

[Horsemen]

You know I haven't seen the Bengals attack the FA market like this before that I can remember. It has me thinking.... Think maybe the Chad blowup/trade me crap, Palmer dissing the coaching staff, ect perhaps woke Mike Brown up a bit? We all know he loves both. His meal tickets. Statements floated around probably true that Lewis would be gone before Ocho Cinco.

This is maybe a little out there in left field but maybe Lewis had Chad act up like that to get MB's attention and ear. Think about the things he was saying in the trade me rants the whole gist. Unhappy, wants to be a competitor, wants to play on a winning team and so on. Now we got a badass DC in Zimmer and Cincy is attacking FA pretty hard, cutting dead weight, aiming for solid upgrades for players... Even if it wasn't Lewis/Palmer/CJ working Mike Brown it still might be a sign that SOMEONE finally caught his attention.

[Oldcat]

You know I haven't seen the Bengals attack the FA market like this before that I can remember. It has me thinking.... Think maybe the Chad blowup/trade me crap, Palmer dissing the coaching staff, ect perhaps woke Mike Brown up a bit? We all know he loves both. His meal tickets. Statements floated around probably true that Lewis would be gone before Ocho Cinco.

This is maybe a little out there in left field but maybe Lewis had Chad act up like that to get MB's attention and ear. Think about the things he was saying in the trade me rants the whole gist. Unhappy, wants to be a competitor, wants to play on a winning team and so on. Now we got a badass DC in Zimmer and Cincy is attacking FA pretty hard, cutting dead weight, aiming for solid upgrades for players... Even if it wasn't Lewis/Palmer/CJ working Mike Brown it still might be a sign that SOMEONE finally caught his attention.

I think the idea that Marvin needs to have some flake act out rather than talking to Mike Brown man to man is an insult to Marvin Lewis.

Marvin and Mike Brown together decided big changes were needed, just as in previous years the two of them decided not to make such changes.

[Pidge]

Maybe Mikey wants to win something too? I mean, he can't possibly give a s**t like us fans do.

Edited to add: I don't know what's caused this sudden, almost radical, change in philosophy but I'm glad it's occured.

[Defender]

I think the idea that Marvin needs to have some flake act out rather than talking to Mike Brown man to man is an insult to Marvin Lewis.

Marvin and Mike Brown together decided big changes were needed, just as in previous years the two of them decided not to make such changes.

I think Marvin has been on board for big changes much earlier, it's just that Mike Brown is just now starting to agree.

[Oldcat]

I think Marvin has been on board for big changes much earlier, it's just that Mike Brown is just now starting to agree.

I've seen no evidence that Marvin does not get what he wants if it can be done, tabloid rumors aside.

I've never heard, even from his haters, that Mike Brown interferes with football decisions Marvin might make.

[jmoore]

No, no and no.

Mike Brown watches only his bottom line. He may take to heart some of the things that go on, but at the end of the day he is all about the profits. He does not confuse a few insults and being the butt of many jokes with the importance of his bottome line. This is about the well being of his family business. We go to work and feel bad when people make fun of our team or the national media rips the Bengals. Mike Brown may feel a little bad, but he is making millions of dollars in the process. The millions make the negative go away very quickly. Let me ask a qestion, how bad would you feel if people were saying the things they say about the Bengals, but you were making millions of dollars as a result of it, probably not to bad

It may because the Bengals defense was horrible last year. If they were that bad last year can imagine how bad they might have been if they had lost two key starters and did nothing? The fans would be in an uproar.

Mike Brown will always do just enough to keep you watching and paying. That is most likely where it ends. This is why the team goes years without seeing consistency in staff, coaching, players, wins, etc. Every once in a while the stars may align and the players will have just enough talent, the coaches will have ability, and the schedule will be easier than it should be. Then you can expect the team to perfom and make a run at the playoffs, but as we all know those years are few and far between as a Bengals fan. It will not change until Mike Brown decides to do something about it, and that is not going to happen. Think about this. The Bengals knew they would not re-sign those defensive players long before they left (not sure that was a bad thing anyway). They knew Tab Perry was out last year. They know where the holes are in their team, and they are not in a hurry to fix them. This is because the money has to be right on everything they do. Other teams fill holes and try to build a winning team. They monitor their dollars closely, but they go for quality first then wory about the dollars later. The difference is that with the Bnegals the money always comes first. They are focussed on the present spend never the future return because the present spend has the biggest bearing on the present profits.

People ask why Mike Brown does not try to build a winning team. The answer is simple. He does not have to. His family still makes a kings ransom for putting an average at best team on the filed each year. They are making money hand over fist. Why complicate things and cut into profits by trying to build a winner. At the end of the day, Mike Brown does not judge winning based on championships, he judges winning based on profits, and from that stand point he is highly successful. He knows that his business model will allow him to stumble upon a good season every once in awhile, and that is good enough for him and apparently good enough for 65,000 Bengals fans each Sunday.

I am not saying he does not care about winning. What I am saying is that he cares a heck of a lot more about his profits, and he is not going to allow dedication to winning get in the way of his family making money. We are fifteen plus years into having an average to bad team at best. What make you think it will change now? Have they added more scouts, the best available coaches, have they hired a seasoned successful GM, better FA's than the ones they just lost? Have they done anything to really drastically improve the team yet? Have they done anything to vault the Bengals right into the playoffs for the next five years? Have they really done anything even remotely earth shattering, no. They are doing just enough. Hope is not a strategy. I am serious about this. If Mike Brown built his team with the same passion that he builds profits, the Bengals would be a perenial Championship caliber team. Championships do not drive Mike Brown. IF THEY DID HE WOULD HAVE SOME!

JTM Whodey!

[Oldcat]

I think you forgot the one about eating babies, and causes the cow's milk to turn sour.

[Jet23]

No, no and no.

Mike Brown watches only his bottom line. He may take to heart some of the things that go on, but at the end of the day he is all about the profits. He does not confuse a few insults and being the butt of many jokes with the importance of his bottome line. This is about the well being of his family business. We go to work and feel bad when people make fun of our team or the national media rips the Bengals. Mike Brown may feel a little bad, but he is making millions of dollars in the process. The millions make the negative go away very quickly. Let me ask a qestion, how bad would you feel if people were saying the things they say about the Bengals, but you were making millions of dollars as a result of it, probably not to bad

It may because the Bengals defense was horrible last year. If they were that bad last year can imagine how bad they might have been if they had lost two key starters and did nothing? The fans would be in an uproar.

Mike Brown will always do just enough to keep you watching and paying. That is most likely where it ends. This is why the team goes years without seeing consistency in staff, coaching, players, wins, etc. Every once in a while the stars may align and the players will have just enough talent, the coaches will have ability, and the schedule will be easier than it should be. Then you can expect the team to perfom and make a run at the playoffs, but as we all know those years are few and far between as a Bengals fan. It will not change until Mike Brown decides to do something about it, and that is not going to happen. Think about this. The Bengals knew they would not re-sign those defensive players long before they left (not sure that was a bad thing anyway). They knew Tab Perry was out last year. They know where the holes are in their team, and they are not in a hurry to fix them. This is because the money has to be right on everything they do. Other teams fill holes and try to build a winning team. They monitor their dollars closely, but they go for quality first then wory about the dollars later. The difference is that with the Bnegals the money always comes first. They are focussed on the present spend never the future return because the present spend has the biggest bearing on the present profits.

People ask why Mike Brown does not try to build a winning team. The answer is simple. He does not have to. His family still makes a kings ransom for putting an average at best team on the filed each year. They are making money hand over fist. Why complicate things and cut into profits by trying to build a winner. At the end of the day, Mike Brown does not judge winning based on championships, he judges winning based on profits, and from that stand point he is highly successful. He knows that his business model will allow him to stumble upon a good season every once in awhile, and that is good enough for him and apparently good enough for 65,000 Bengals fans each Sunday.

I am not saying he does not care about winning. What I am saying is that he cares a heck of a lot more about his profits, and he is not going to allow dedication to winning get in the way of his family making money. We are fifteen plus years into having an average to bad team at best. What make you think it will change now? Have they added more scouts, the best available coaches, have they hired a seasoned successful GM, better FA's than the ones they just lost? Have they done anything to really drastically improve the team yet? Have they done anything to vault the Bengals right into the playoffs for the next five years? Have they really done anything even remotely earth shattering, no. They are doing just enough. Hope is not a strategy. I am serious about this. If Mike Brown built his team with the same passion that he builds profits, the Bengals would be a perenial Championship caliber team. Championships do not drive Mike Brown. IF THEY DID HE WOULD HAVE SOME!

JTM Whodey!

I'm Jet23 and I endorse this post.

[Horsemen]

I think the idea that Marvin needs to have some flake act out rather than talking to Mike Brown man to man is an insult to Marvin Lewis.

I disagree. Brown is(was?) THAT bad. He hasn't listened or done what needs to be done in 17 years, a handful under Marvin Lewis. s**t goes south and players act up now suddenly Cincy is attacking the FA market, hiring a top notch DC, ect? Call me cynical.

Marvin and Mike Brown together decided big changes were needed, just as in previous years the two of them decided not to make such changes.

Yeah because Mikey listens and Lewis honestly thought getting rid of the Steinbach's was a good move, right? Riiiight. Please. Something got Mikey to change for the better.

Maybe Mikey wants to win something too? I mean, he can't possibly give a s**t like us fans do.

The 1990's prove he hasn't wanted to win something just make money.

I think Marvin has been on board for big changes much earlier, it's just that Mike Brown is just now starting to agree.

BINGO! Call me cynical I just doubt MB woke up one day and said "we'll do it your way". SOMETHING caught his attention and changed his mind.

[Jonboat]

Funny I was thinking about Chads blow up & Fa today also but from a slightly different perspective, that being if his antics have scared away some FA's . Rodgers was willing to postpone his bonus to go to Cleveland but not here. I may be reaching here but looking @ it from an outsiders point of view I could see where one would see nothing but negative things about this team with their star player running around town complaining about losing & hinting around that he wants out hell I wouldn't want to come here either. That perception of the team goes back to pickens, dillion so one could argue that while Marvin has worked hard to bring respect back to the team in the eyes of fans & media, they're still fighting an uphill battle to get that respect from big time FA, their agents & other teams .

[COB]

I am not saying he does not care about winning.

Your not? All I read through your whole post is Mike Brown cares about money, not winning.

Have they done anything to vault the Bengals right into the playoffs for the next five years?

Can you explain the move that you have hoped for. You know, the move that vaults us into the playoffs for the next five years.

If Mike Brown built his team with the same passion that he builds profits,

So Mike Brown is an accomplished businessman who makes a lot of money by ignoring the will of his customers? Then he's not a businessman, he's a magician. I suspect you know absolutely nothing about profits made by the Bengals organization.

I am serious about this.

Not really. We had a 16-year-old kid's version of this same rant in here a few months back. His was entertaining. If you were serious, you wouldn't write 6 paragraphs of conclusory statements that all boil down to: "Mike Brown cares about making money not winning, and the proof is that we haven't won enough." To make matters worse, you then post the aforementioned right after the coach promised to blow up the defense, the team fired the DC, hired a successful DC, let a bunch of dead weight walk off the defense, made public attempts to trade for two top tier defensive linemen, then signed a free agent end. That just doesn't sound like a sluggard organization sitting back profit taking.

I just don't see any evidence to support what you are saying. What I see is a worn out tirade. And I see the organization taking actions that completely put the lie to your whole theory.

[bengalboomer7]

I think too many people in this topic don't smoke weed and need to start

[COB]

I may be reaching here but looking @ it from an outsiders point of view I could see where one would see nothing but negative things about this team with their star player running around town complaining about losing & hinting around that he wants out

I don't think you're reaching, I think you are dead on. That old perception of the Bengals definitely got a shot in the arm from Chad's antics.

[bengalsfansince68]

I think too many people in this topic don't smoke weed and need to start

Nice, Boomer,

I had a few bong hits when I read jtm's post and my only thought after was...

Did he really need to use so many words to make the same point over and over and over? And over?

Was I just buzzed?

[jmoore]

Central O,

I will make this easy for you (sorry to all again for the War and Peace post, but this may take a minute). What I was saying is that Mike Brown wants to win, but if it comes down to winning and profits, then he will take the profits. Winning is not his primary focus for him, profits are. You made my point when you asked if I could provide you with something I thought the Bengals could do to vault themselves into the playoffs. The answer is no. I can't think of anything because the Bengals as usual need to address too many areas. There is no one stop fix, and even if there were they would not pull the trigger on it. Wow, now we need a good offensive lineman in the draft....hmmmm. If we could only find an All Pro Lineman. WE HAD ONE! They let him go to Cleveland because they did not want to pay him. Is this making sense to you now?

to your point "So Mike Brown is an accomplished businessman who makes a lot of money by ignoring the will of his customers? Then he's not a businessman, he's a magician. I suspect you know absolutely nothing about profits made by the Bengals organization." I suspect that you know absolutely nothing about the public information that can be readily obtained regarding the Bengals. Even more importantly how they stack up profits wise to the other NFL teams. The Bengals are very profitable. Mike Brown is no magician; he is a brilliant business man who inked the best deal in the NFL when it comes to his stadium. Do the homework. He is guaranteed sell outs via his contract! What more do I need to say. He gets sell outs, and then he depends on fans like you who think a bunch of 8 and 8 season with one playoff appearance gives them hope (their is the ignoring the will of his Customers part). His Customers (you) apparently happen to have the lowest expectations of any fans in the NFL.

"The Coach promised to blow up the defense", which Coach? Hasn't every Bengals Coach claimed to want to do this? They have been one of the worst defenses for almost 15 years running now. Every year has been a good year to blow the Bengals defense up. It is one of on a few tried and true traditions the Bengals have left. 15 years of consistent underperformance! Now that is dedication to winning!

"The team fired the DC and hired a successful DC. That’s what we heard when Lesley Frazier was let go. Oh, that’s right I forgot about that intimidating Atlanta Falcons defense last year, and all the success they had on their run to the playoffs. The new DC has a lot to prove. Just like the previous 10 DC's in the last 15 years did. Do you see pattern forming here?

"They let a bunch of dead weight walk off the defense". I agree with you on Justin Smith, but the same coach you are praising allowed this guy to be tagged as the Franchise Player last year. Why not, he did have 2 sacks on the season. Central O, the defense Marvin wants to blow up is his defense (he put it together). Do you think the Coach and team may have issues with judging talent? Maybe it’s because they don't have enough SCOUTS! Mike Brown is to cheap to get more because it would eat into his profits, and I will not even begin to try to explain the lack of a GM situation to you.

"They made public attempts to trade for two top tier defensive linemen, then signed a free agent end. That just doesn't sound like a sluggard organization sitting back profit taking." Woulda, coulda, shoulda, if only! As Jim Rome says if my aunt had package, she would be my uncle. That is a lot of ifs there Central O. If they have a losing season again who cares who they picked up. If they go to the playoffs and get spanked again in the first game, who cares who they picked up. They have a ton of salary cap money. How about this for an idea. String together 4 successful seasons back to back, and then we can come back and discuss this. How about winning a playoff game. Raise your standards a little. Marvin has had one wining season as Coach, and you want to believe every thing he says is dead accurate. He needs to earn that kind of respect from the Bengals fans. Don't just hand it over to him. He took over the biggest joke in the NFL, and has gotten extensions in his contract for a bunch of 8 and 8 seasons. Did he make progress yes, but that gravy train ended three years ago. They are not on the rise; they are on the decline until they prove differantly. Once again, have some minimum standards as a fan.

You think Mike Brown's number one priority is winning? My word how much evidence do you need? Once again, I ask you how many winning seasons have the Bengals had in the last 15 years? How can you be committed to winning and never win? No one could go 15 seasons like the Bengals have and not win unless you really just did not have that as a top priority. The guy is no Magician, he is a brilliant business man who knows he has people like you with expectations so low that he really does not have to try to hard especially with the best stadium deal in the league. The Bengals are estimated to be worth $900 million dollars. Is that enough profit for you? It is for Mike Brown.

JTM Whodey!

[HoosierCat]

What I was saying is that Mike Brown wants to win, but if it comes down to winning and profits, then he will take the profits. Winning is not his primary focus for him, profits are.

Which is pretty much true of every owner in the NFL. If it weren't, then the league would be littered with lots of unprofitable, winning franchises -- which it isn't.

The problem isn't Mikey's concern about profits, or even how much he spends -- which is right up to the cap, year after year. The problem is how the money has been spent. And the FO isn't always at fault there, either. That big $100 million deal they gave to Carson in late December 2005 looked good for about a week. Then Kimo ripped off Palmer's leg, and let's face it, Carson's never been quite the same since. Levi's extension looked god for a bit longer, but even he quickly blew out both knees soon after getting paid. They're shown Chad the money twice in recent years, and what has that gotten them? A ranting sports talk show head case who accuses the FO of dissing him! Shoot, I wish they'd "dis" me as bad as they've "dissed" him!

Some of the bad decisions, of course, can be laid at the feet of mangement. They ought not have extended Willie, and kept Steinbach instead, for example. Draft-wise, more scouts and a GM whose job depends on drafting well probably means they don't take problems like Odell, Henry, Rucker and Nicholson. OTOH, no amount of personnel or money can predict things like Chris Perry turning to fine china the moment he enters the NFL, or Pollack busting his neck on a freak play, or Weathersby blacking out and running his car into a pole, or Keift blowing out a foot every time he steps on the field, or devastating injuries to key FA pickups like Tony Williams and Nate Webster.

Fortunately, it looks like things are changing. For one thing, the team avoided character risks in the draft last year, and have said they will do so again this year. That should wipe out a whole class of problems moving forward. And this year, the organization has been far more reluctant than usual to hand over new deals to its own, average, players, such as Justin, Madieu and Landon. It replaced Justin with an arguably better player in Antwan Odom, retained Dhani Jones, who played at least as well as, if not better than, Landon last year -- and with far less experience in the system and no time to practice -- and has any number of DBs on the roster who look capable of replacing Williams, whose play was never the same after his injury.

They also dumped Chuckie B., which ought to make any Bengals fan cheery, and are reportedly tearing up chunks of the playbook, which ought to have been done earlier but at least it's getting done now. Usually, this is the time of year when I'm most down on Bengals management; this year I can't find a whole lot to complain about.

[damiancasey]

I am not saying he does not care about winning.

Your not? All I read through your whole post is Mike Brown cares about money, not winning.

Have they done anything to vault the Bengals right into the playoffs for the next five years?

Can you explain the move that you have hoped for. You know, the move that vaults us into the playoffs for the next five years.

If Mike Brown built his team with the same passion that he builds profits,

So Mike Brown is an accomplished businessman who makes a lot of money by ignoring the will of his customers? Then he's not a businessman, he's a magician. I suspect you know absolutely nothing about profits made by the Bengals organization.

I am serious about this.

Not really. We had a 16-year-old kid's version of this same rant in here a few months back. His was entertaining. If you were serious, you wouldn't write 6 paragraphs of conclusory statements that all boil down to: "Mike Brown cares about making money not winning, and the proof is that we haven't won enough." To make matters worse, you then post the aforementioned right after the coach promised to blow up the defense, the team fired the DC, hired a successful DC, let a bunch of dead weight walk off the defense, made public attempts to trade for two top tier defensive linemen, then signed a free agent end. That just doesn't sound like a sluggard organization sitting back profit taking.

I just don't see any evidence to support what you are saying. What I see is a worn out tirade. And I see the organization taking actions that completely put the lie to your whole theory.

I'm damiancasey and I endorse this post...

[HairOnFire]

Fortunately, it looks like things are changing. For one thing, the team avoided character risks in the draft last year, and have said they will do so again this year. That should wipe out a whole class of problems moving forward.

But drafting character risks doesn't say a thing about an owners willingness to spend money. For example, Denver has shown the same willingness to select character risks, and has probably had far less success with their picks than Cincy. But nobody doubts Pat Bowlen's motives, only his judgement.

And this year, the organization has been far more reluctant than usual to hand over new deals to its own, average, players, such as Justin, Madieu and Landon.

Again, we're talking about a change in team building strategy, not a change in an owners willingness to spend money. In fact, the reluctance to throw ever increasing amounts of money at underperforming players may be a welcome change, but it smacks a little bit of the coupon shopping that Brown has always been accused of.

Bottom Line: The Bengals were over the cap again last season so spending isn't the issue. Instead, for most Bengal fans it all comes down to Mike Browns unwillingness to manipulate the cap room from year to year to year. They simply refuse to engage in the "creative accounting" that often results in 15-20 million dollars in additional cap room in a given year...as well as the need to purge 15-20 million dollars worth of talent two or three years later.

[HoosierCat]

And this year, the organization has been far more reluctant than usual to hand over new deals to its own, average, players, such as Justin, Madieu and Landon.

Again, we're talking about a change in team building strategy, not a change in an owners willingness to spend money. In fact, the reluctance to throw ever increasing amounts of money at underperforming players may be a welcome change, but it smacks a little bit of the coupon shopping that Brown has always been accused of.

Well, if you go back and re-read my post, I said explicitly that a willingness to spend isn't the problem -- it's how the money is spent that's the issue -- and that's exactly the point addressed in this "change of strategy." And I don't think it represents "coupon shopping" at all. If you do, well, all I can say is that offers more proof that you're just an irrational Mikey-hater.

[Oldcat]

Mike Browns problem is that he hasn't spent money on players who will get us to the playoffs. You can see that since we haven't gotten to the playoffs.

Yet every year, teams that make the playoffs sign players that play on playoff teams. So it can't be hard. We should be like teams that make

the playoffs, and sign players that will make the playoffs. Once we do that, we will be in the playoffs all the time.

The only possible reason for Mike Brown to do this is to piss us off on this message board.

[HoosierCat]

Mike Browns problem is that he hasn't spent money on players who will get us to the playoffs. You can see that since we haven't gotten to the playoffs. Yet every year, teams that make the playoffs sign players that play on playoff teams. So it can't be hard. We should be like teams that make the playoffs, and sign players that will make the playoffs. Once we do that, we will be in the playoffs all the time.

:lmao: The logic is irrefutable!

[damiancasey]

This has been discussed alot and the 2 options are always:

1) Evil "Mr Burns" Mike Brown

2) Unlucky but reformed Mike Brown

The reality is option 3?

3) He's stubbornly trying to live up to his Dad's legacy and he's just plain not very good at developing a winning football franchise.

Does he want to make money? Of course

Does he care what people think? To some extent - of course

Throw in the normal fluctuation of injuries and schedules and you have the current Bengals record.

[HairOnFire]

Well, if you go back and re-read my post, I said explicitly that a willingness to spend isn't the problem -- it's how the money is spent that's the issue -- and that's exactly the point addressed in this "change of strategy."

I agree, and if it sounded like I was arguing with you then I worded my response poorly. My intent was simply to point out how the changes in draft and free agent strategy don't really represent a change in spending. Brown spends to the limit of the cap every season.

If there's a failure it's demonstrated by his unwillingness to play the type of cap games that allow teams to create additional cap room at critical moments. Mike Brown has explained many times that this type of conservative strategy prevents future problems, but in the minds of many represents missed opportunities.

[COB]

Is this making sense to you now?

No.

In my opinion, your whole premise is flawed. Profitability and winning are in no way mutually exclusive. In fact I would argue they go hand in hand. The posts above lay it out better than I can - that losing seasons by the Bengals are not a reflection of an ownership disinterested in winning, but instead are the result of a poorly-conceived strategy, or the result of a sound strategy that was poorly or unluckily executed.

You say the Bengals finances are available public information. They aren't. The corporation is privately held, and the owners hold their financial information very closely. Kagan World Media issues a book every year estimating the profitability of professional sports teams. They infer their numbers from NFL Players Association reports, NFL court filings, public tax filings, etc. You don't know how profitable the Bengals are and neither does anyone else. It's all an educated guess. But I agree with your guess that the Bengals are very profitable. Every owner wants to make money. They own professional teams, not NCAA squads.

fans like you who think a bunch of 8 and 8 season with one playoff appearance gives them hope

That is me in a nutshell. Having watched Marvin turn 3 and 4 win seasons into 7,8, and 11 win seasons inspires real hope in me that he can now turn those seasons into 10, 12, even 14 win seasons as his team brand of football slowly displaces the last traces of the selfish, me-first past. That belief is a reasonable one, I think.

[bengalsfansince68]

That is me in a nutshell. Having watched Marvin turn 3 and 4 win seasons into 7,8, and 11 win seasons inspires real hope in me that he can now turn those seasons into 10, 12, even 14 win seasons as his team brand of football slowly displaces the last traces of the selfish, me-first past. That belief is a reasonable one, I think.

COB, thanks for adding a bit of positivity to the depressing sea of hopeless despair that is Bengal Nation.