Who to Cut

[Oldcat]

How do you guys intend to cut Justin Smith when he isn't even on the team. He is a UFA.

If I was running the show, Thornton, Rudi and Willie would be playing somewhere else next season.

Sign him, then cut him.

That will show him.

[HairOnFire]

Sign him, then cut him.

That will show him.

Well, it worked with Joe Germaine.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Hair, if I had the time and access to film I'd make you a "plays that Justin Smith f**ked up by leaving his gap" tape. It'd be pretty long.

I'm not impressed by a guy who chases down a busted play but can't make plays in his own damned gap.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Hair, if I had the time and access to film I'd make you a "plays that Justin Smith f**ked up by leaving his gap" tape. It'd be pretty long.

I'm not impressed by a guy who chases down a busted play but can't make plays in his own damned gap.

The feeling I get about Justin is he's a player who loves playing for Cincinnati, but makes mistakes by trying to overcompensate for the horrid play by his fellow defensive linemen. Give the Cincinnati DL a couple of impact players through the draft or free agency, and IMHO this problem will be solved.

[TJJackson]

C'mon now Poopiebritches, even a dink like you knows that things can always get worse

Sweetie, I'm pretty sure we spent the bulk of the season ranked 30-something in total defense, so no, not really, it cannot get worse

I'd love to hear which unemployed street FA could produce at Smith's level. Or isn't it fair of me to ask you to back up your stupid claims with actual names?

No need. Any street free agent will do. I said Johnny Streetclothes....wasn't this clear enough for ya, sugar?

The fact that you'd openly champion the idea of starting a street FA making the NFL minimum at one of the most important positions on the field is exactly why I find your opinions to be worthless so often.

Lambikins, you know since the moment I said "I do" you've granted no value to any of my opinions, NFL-related or otherwise. That said, we're already starting a worthless (and massively overpaid) player. Starting a worthless (but low paid) player is an improvement from where I sit.

Seriously, if you don't like Smith and think he's overpaid then that's one thing, but what you and others are discussing is flat out stupid.

Seriously, you heavily overvalue Smith's worth to this team. That's the short and simple of it. Oh, and do you need me to pick up any milk?

I've always felt that Smith's production would increase if he was asked to play fewer downs

It's not beyond the realm of possibility, dearest. This one I will grant you. Frankly, I am in favor of DL rotation simply on the basis that you hear it game in and game out in the 4th quarter - that the Bengals defense is tired, worn out, huffing, spent. More rotation = fresher defenders.

----BUT----

The point being - what you are saying about Justin is probably true for the vast majority of lineman. So your point really isn't a defense of Justin per se but rather an indictment of our defensive coaches -- and I have no problem with that. Hopefully, the new guy will make a difference. We shall see.

I guess it's the couch for me tonight -- again

[schroomytunes]

Well if I needed to free up some cap space to help bring in Free Agents than these are the guys that I would be looking to cut based on our current roster:

1)Dexter Jackson-we are going to designate Madieu the franchise guy and rightly so, he is young fills a need, and it still allows us to bring in other Free Agents, while Dexter is injury prone, getting older, and has a cap hit of 1.3....we have Nduke that needs to be the starting SS.

2)John Thornton-he dosnt get enough penetration into the opposing backfield and is too small to be on the DL, we can rplace him through the draft and FA, or let Fanene start. His cap hit is @ 3million

3)Rudi-I would try to restructure his contract to a 2 year deal to lower the cap hit and make him a short yardage back, if he's unwilling to be that role than I cut him and look to the draft.

[BengalszoneBilly]

2)John Thornton-he dosnt get enough penetration into the opposing backfield and is too small to be on the DL, we can rplace him through the draft and FA, or let Fanene start. His cap hit is @ 3million

This player is LONG overdue to catch the bus out of Cincy. He's done LESS than Justin Smith, yet has been given a free ride in this town.

[agreen_112]

Not at all, hunnybunches.......he pressures the QB infrequently (like any good street FA does) sacks the passer even less so (like any good street FA does)

C'mon now Poopiebritches, even a dink like you knows that things can always get worse, and if you don't think so I'd love to hear which unemployed street FA could produce at Smith's level. Or isn't it fair of me to ask you to back up your stupid claims with actual names?

....and when you count the tackles he makes behind, at, or near the line of scrimmage (where any good street FA DL will be found) and not the tackles made after the ball carrier has already picked up a first down or more - yeah, I'll take Joe Streetclothes for nfl minimum,

The fact that you'd openly champion the idea of starting a street FA making the NFL minimum at one of the most important positions on the field is exactly why I find your opinions to be worthless so often. Seriously, if you don't like Smith and think he's overpaid then that's one thing, but what you and others are discussing is flat out stupid.

The fact that he is healthy just means we get his less than mediocre play consistently, down after down. YAY!

I've always felt that Smith's production would increase if he was asked to play fewer downs, and I'll bet you a buck that's exactly what will happen the moment he leaves the Bengals. In fact, most teams cap the percentage of downs a defensive lineman will play between 80-85%. By comparison Smith has routinely logged more than 98% of all defensive snaps since his rookie season....likely dictating that your dumb ass would have to find two or three street free agents to simply play the number of downs that Smith does.

One word TJ: OWNED

[TJJackson]

One word TJ: OWNED

*laff*

Coming from you, this is a real compliment. Not that I'd expect you to understand why, but thanks nonetheless.

[agreen_112]

One word TJ: OWNED

*laff*

Coming from you, this is a real compliment. Not that I'd expect you to understand why, but thanks nonetheless.

Understand that you got ONWWWWWWWWWWED homie LMAO.

[HoosierCat]

I would say Justin's performance in Cincy has been hampered by three factors, two of which have already been mentioned: a lack of talent elsewhere on the defensive line, and the exhausting number of defensive snaps he takes. As a third point, I would also add that for years and years they kept trying to get cute, rush someone else, and drop Justin into pass coverage on an all-too-regular basis. I remember Hair and I screaming about this game after game: why are we putting our best rusher in coverage?

[HairOnFire]

Hair, if I had the time and access to film I'd make you a "plays that Justin Smith f**ked up by leaving his gap" tape. It'd be pretty long.

That's the type of empty threat I'm all too familiar with in Justin Smith debates. For example, I once responded to Bengal fan who said he focused on Smith during a game against the Browns and not only didn't Smith make any plays he wasn't double teamed once. So I broke out a yellow legal pad....fired up the Tivo...and after reviewing the game totaled 28 double teams, and 3 other occasions where Smith was chipped by a RB after splitting the double.

And in regards to the "leaving his gap" rant that you admit you can't or won't back up, I once charted every defensive snap over a 6 game period and learned that over that time period opposing teams running directly at Smith managed just 4 rushing plays that gained 5 yards or more. Since I still have the notes I can now pass along the knowledge that one of those 4 plays was a a garden variety 5 yard run, two were harmless QB draws on the last play of the 1st half in two seperate games, gaining 7 and 8 yards respectively, and the last was a 23 yard run that resulted from the RB attacking the edge opposite Smith...then reversing into the open as Smith, who had chased the play, got caught in the interior trash. So there you go. There's your leaving the gap tragedy.

Anyone who has watched Smith closely has to admit that his habit of chasing plays run to the opposite edge is the primary reason for his lofty tackle stats, but also leaves him vulnerable on broken plays and reverses. No argument will be offered in defense. That said, the rant that Smith makes most of his tackles 5 or 7 yards downfield is just so much warmed over crap, as most of those tackles are examples of Smith making hustle plays that few DE's even attempt.

Regardless, I'm betting the time for in-depth Justin Smith debates has passed, and the next time I grab a legal pad and fire up my Tivo it will be to document the play of a highly drafted rookie...or a street FA....trying his best to fill Smith's shoes. And something tells me that doing so will prove far more difficult than YOU think it will be.

[HairOnFire]

Seriously, if you don't like Smith and think he's overpaid then that's one thing, but what you and others are discussing is flat out stupid.

Seriously, you heavily overvalue Smith's worth to this team. That's the short and simple of it. Oh, and do you need me to pick up any milk?

Check yourself, because that's not milk on your upper lip. That's man gravy.

[HairOnFire]

As a third point, I would also add that for years and years they kept trying to get cute, rush someone else, and drop Justin into pass coverage on an all-too-regular basis. I remember Hair and I screaming about this game after game: why are we putting our best rusher in coverage?

Yeah, I remember posting the breakdown of one of the games I charted on the old Huddles board, and most people admitted they had no idea how often Smith was dropped into pass coverage. Seven or eight times in one game if I remember correctly and an average of 4 to 5 times in all of the others.

It is what it is. For whatever it might be worth I like Smith and have always felt he was a solid if unspectacular player, but for the most part I haven't liked the way the Bengals have used him since his rookie year....when LeBeau simply pointed him at the QB and told Mongo to kill.

[HoosierCat]

And here's Hair's favorite guy on the upcoming d-line FA market...

[BengalszoneBilly]

And here's Hair's favorite guy on the upcoming d-line FA market...

I don't know if I can accept anything coming from a guy wearing a Homer Simpson necktie.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

2-sack Budweiser man's problems have more to do with a lack of big buck ability than anything Lebeau used him for 6 years ago.

Classic tweener. Ready to see a different look at that position. He hasn't worked out, LB's should be making too many of his tackles.

I think Marvin wants him to walk, as part of "blowing up" the defensive schemes, but Brown is singing a different, loyal good guy tune.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Classic tweener. Ready to see a different look at that position. He hasn't worked out.

Like John Thornton has been stellar!?! This guy has been the classic hinge on this pathetic swinging gate defense the Bengals have had for years, yet you guys are all over Smith's case!! Give me a break.

[HairOnFire]

Classic tweener. Ready to see a different look at that position.

Sorry, 270 lb. DE's aren't considered tweeners in anyones book but yours. In fact, the type of DE you have repeatedly coveted far better fit the description of a tweener. BTW, can I assume that you're ineterested in the new look that a 245 lb Derrick Harvey would provide?

...LB's should be making too many of his tackles.

I doubt you can elaborate on this point, but I say give it a try.

[jorsan]

It would be a shame to see John Thornton go. He is great for team moral and has the determination to fight and win.

[agreen_112]

It would be a shame to see John Thornton go. He is great for team moral and has the determination to fight and win.

But he has no skill. Skill = Win