Senior Bowl

[HairOnFire]

Anyhow, Jones was very adamant up front that all his Bengals sources say the switch to a 3-4 is basically a done deal, and that a DT to man the nose was the target in round one. He describes Ellis as on top of his wish list for that spot.

That suprises me. Then again it doesn't. As much as I'd be suprised that Marvin Lewis would abandon the scheme that he built his reputation on...it's been difficult to ignore how clearly Zimmer has made it that a switch is still being considered. In fact, I expected him to squash the idea immediately after being hired and in reality he's done everything but that.

[Spor_tees]

Anyhow, Jones was very adamant up front that all his Bengals sources say the switch to a 3-4 is basically a done deal, and that a DT to man the nose was the target in round one. He describes Ellis as on top of his wish list for that spot.

That suprises me. Then again it doesn't. As much as I'd be suprised that Marvin Lewis would abandon the scheme that he built his reputation on...it's been difficult to ignore how clearly Zimmer has made it that a switch is still being considered. In fact, I expected him to squash the idea immediately after being hired and in reality he's done everything but that.

Well with Zimmers quote how he likes bigger LBs and then goes on to mention how in a 3-4 bigger backers are needed...maybe it is a hint of things to come.

[Kazkal]

Being his best years were 4-3 and marvins a 4-3 guy I'm pretty sure were sticking 4-3.

[HoosierCat]

Anyhow, Jones was very adamant up front that all his Bengals sources say the switch to a 3-4 is basically a done deal, and that a DT to man the nose was the target in round one. He describes Ellis as on top of his wish list for that spot.

That suprises me. Then again it doesn't. As much as I'd be suprised that Marvin Lewis would abandon the scheme that he built his reputation on...it's been difficult to ignore how clearly Zimmer has made it that a switch is still being considered. In fact, I expected him to squash the idea immediately after being hired and in reality he's done everything but that.

Well with Zimmers quote how he likes bigger LBs and then goes on to mention how in a 3-4 bigger backers are needed...maybe it is a hint of things to come.

And now you can toss our new LB coach, who comes to us from the 3-4 Ravens, into the mix.

[agreen_112]

I seriously hope we finally go into a 3-4... Zimmer, Marv, Fitz, Odell, Brooks; all the pieces are there except for of course the NT.

[DesperateDerelict]

I seriously hope we finally go into a 3-4... Zimmer, Marv, Fitz, Odell, Brooks; all the pieces are there except for of course the NT.

That's quite a piece - the NT is the linchpin of the 3-4. San Francisco is one of several teams that have the nose guard on top of their wish list (DAL, SD, KC, Atl, etc), with very few available this year. The 2 Texas NTs (Frank Okam (UT) & Red Bryant (A&M)) are the only 'true' NTs in the draft rated to go day one. Dorsey, Ellis, Sims, Moore, and Law would all get washed out or worn down in the nose guard position.

Also, the DE's in the 3-4 should be bigger guys - they are actually interior linemen half the time. We aren't over supplied with large DE's at this time.

Just because you have an over abundance of linebackers is NOT a good excuse to convert to a 4-3. The way the rush defense has performed for the last decade, a move to a 5-2 makes more sense to me. Look at what the NY Giants have done with alot of smaller, quicker defensive linemen.

[COB]

I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, but it seems appropriate to this discussion. I buzzed past Lance's blog on my lunch hour today, and noticed an interview with Jerry Jones (of the Drug Store List, not the Cowboys) under recent interviews (dated 1/11).

Anyhow, Jones was very adamant up front that all his Bengals sources say the switch to a 3-4 is basically a done deal, and that a DT to man the nose was the target in round one. He describes Ellis as on top of his wish list for that spot.

If they do this, and if Ellis is gone, Gholston will probably get serious consideration. He's been projected by most to be taken by a 3-4 team, then stood up to rush the passer. He played linebacker in high school, the Buckeyes actually put his hand on the ground.

[HoosierCat]

That's quite a piece - the NT is the linchpin of the 3-4. San Francisco is one of several teams that have the nose guard on top of their wish list (DAL, SD, KC, Atl, etc), with very few available this year. The 2 Texas NTs (Frank Okam (UT) & Red Bryant (A&M)) are the only 'true' NTs in the draft rated to go day one. Dorsey, Ellis, Sims, Moore, and Law would all get washed out or worn down in the nose guard position.

Also, the DE's in the 3-4 should be bigger guys - they are actually interior linemen half the time. We aren't over supplied with large DE's at this time.

Well, we aren't overly-supplied with defensive lineman at the time. Whether the Bengals stick with a 4-3 or move to a 3-4, they are still looking at a substantial rebuild up front.

B-rob is already history. Justin will almost certainly leave. Fanene is a restricted FA. Rucker looks like a flop. Thornton is high on the list of possible cap casualties. Basically, we are down to Peko, Geathers and Mike Myers (who just turned 32 a few days ago).

Meanwhile, as agreen noted, we're up to our nostrils in LBs.

If the Bengals are going to make a switch, this would probably be the best time in the last few years to do it.

[DesperateDerelict]

Well, we aren't overly-supplied with defensive lineman at the time. Whether the Bengals stick with a 4-3 or move to a 3-4, they are still looking at a substantial rebuild up front.

B-rob is already history. Justin will almost certainly leave. Fanene is a restricted FA. Rucker looks like a flop. Thornton is high on the list of possible cap casualties. Basically, we are down to Peko, Geathers and Mike Myers (who just turned 32 a few days ago).

Meanwhile, as agreen noted, we're up to our nostrils in LBs.

If the Bengals are going to make a switch, this would probably be the best time in the last few years to do it.

Unfortunately, our DL coach is still Jon Hayes, arguably the worst coach at his position in the league. Here's a quote from Hayes at the Senior Bowl practices this week -

""You know who I want? William Wallace. That's who I'm looking for," said Hayes, a smile curling his lips as he thought about the bloodthirsty, passionate patriot of the middle ages movie Braveheart."

You know what we'll get? A slow, weak, passionate player who gets beat 95% of the plays, but keeps trying. I can't think of any DL in stripes that has improved dramatically while with the Bengals the last 5 years. Not ONE!! That's so far against the odds as to be bizarre.

Forget the 3-4 and the 4-3. We'll draft LB's and play 6 LBs behind Peko.

[HairOnFire]

B-rob is already history. Justin will almost certainly leave. Fanene is a restricted FA. Rucker looks like a flop. Thornton is high on the list of possible cap casualties. Basically, we are down to Peko, Geathers and Mike Myers (who just turned 32 a few days ago).

I know I'm alone on an island on this one, but that's never stopped me before...and it won't now.

Rucker doesn't look like a flop to me. He's played pretty well when given the chance, and there's the rub because with Justin Smith routinely playing about 96% of the snaps he's not going to get many chances. He was drafted to be insurance in the event Justin Smith left in free agency, and that day may finally be here. In addition, he has plenty of experience playing the elephant DE role in the 4-3 AND in the 3-4.

Finally, Fanane being restricted is a big consideration as it means the Bengals can keep him if they want, and he too has the look of a young 3-4 elephant.

[DesperateDerelict]

I know I'm alone on an island on this one, but that's never stopped me before...and it won't now.

Rucker doesn't look like a flop to me. He's played pretty well when given the chance, and there's the rub because with Justin Smith routinely playing about 96% of the snaps he's not going to get many chances. He was drafted to be insurance in the event Justin Smith left in free agency, and that day may finally be here. In addition, he has plenty of experience playing the elephant DE role in the 4-3 AND in the 3-4.

Finally, Fanane being restricted is a big consideration as it means the Bengals can keep him if they want, and he too has the look of a young 3-4 elephant.

Who's going to develop them? Coach them technique? Show them WHERE they need to be and WHY? If today's Bengals had drafted Sapp, Feeney, J.Henderson, or KGB, they'd either be languishing on the bench or labeled a bust.

You're only as good as the coaching and scheme.

[HoosierCat]

Unfortunately, our DL coach is still Jon Hayes, arguably the worst coach at his position in the league.

There is that.

In Hayes defense, tho, I would say that he hasn't had much to work with: a handful of mid-to-late round picks, some UDFAs, and a few Old Washed Up Dudes from the FA bargain bin.

Compare that with, say, Kevin Coyle, whose supposed good coaching of the secondary got his name into contention for the DC spot this month. I honestly don't know whether Coyle is a good coach or not, but I have to think it's a lot easier to look good when you have 3 first round picks (Hall, JJ, Deltha), 1 second (Madieu) and a former SB MVP FA (Dex) to work with.

[HairOnFire]

That's quite a piece - the NT is the linchpin of the 3-4. San Francisco is one of several teams that have the nose guard on top of their wish list (DAL, SD, KC, Atl, etc), with very few available this year. The 2 Texas NTs (Frank Okam (UT) & Red Bryant (A&M)) are the only 'true' NTs in the draft rated to go day one. Dorsey, Ellis, Sims, Moore, and Law would all get washed out or worn down in the nose guard position.

Mike Mayoch said on this mornings Senior Bowl telecast that he discussed Ellis with Pete Carroll off camera yesterday and Pete claimed Elli's best position is as a NT. He went on to add that over his entire career at USC Ellis had actually played that position more often than any other, and not only held up well, but his burst and explosion are the things that make him special at that position. For whatever it might be worth, Mayoch disagreed with Carroll, feeling that Sedrick's skills would be a better fit in a traditional 4-3 role, and I think I agree. As for Ellis himself, they showed an interview with him earlier in the week where he said he was as comfortable in the 3-4 as in the 4-3, and had experience playing every spot on the line...including NT and as a 3-4 DE. (GASP!!!!)

Last point. Add Ahtyba Rubin to your list of potential NT's. He's a day two prospect who has looked almost unblockable during the Senior Bowl drills.

[HoosierCat]

Rucker doesn't look like a flop to me. He's played pretty well when given the chance, and there's the rub because with Justin Smith routinely playing about 96% of the snaps he's not going to get many chances. He was drafted to be insurance in the event Justin Smith left in free agency, and that day may finally be here. In addition, he has plenty of experience playing the elephant DE role in the 4-3 AND in the 3-4.

Finally, Fanane being restricted is a big consideration as it means the Bengals can keep him if they want, and he too has the look of a young 3-4 elephant.

Rucker could still pan out, yes, and Fanene has potential as a 3-4 DE. My biggest issue with the pair isn't their play, it's their annual struggles to stay healthy. At a certain point, no matter what the player's potential, if he can't stay off the injury list, you have to move on (see Perry, Chris). Rucker isn't at that point yet, but Fanene IMHO is coming up on it fast.

[HairOnFire]

I honestly don't know whether Coyle is a good coach or not, but I have to think it's a lot easier to look good when you have 3 first round picks (Hall, JJ, Deltha), 1 second (Madieu) and a former SB MVP FA (Dex) to work with.

Please. Coyle was the coach in charge of Deltha's teardown and total rebuild. He got results immediately and managed to produce a Pro Bowl season from a CB that Mike Shanahan had reluctantly switched to WR. In addition, he took an already aging journeyman CB in Tory James and yet aain got immediate results and a Pro Bowl season. And while Hall and Joseph were both 1st round picks it was Coyle who got All-Rookie seasons out of both. (Hall was named to the PFW team earlier this month.)

[DesperateDerelict]

Rucker could still pan out, yes, and Fanene has potential as a 3-4 DE. My biggest issue with the pair isn't their play, it's their annual struggles to stay healthy. At a certain point, no matter what the player's potential, if he can't stay off the injury list, you have to move on (see Perry, Chris). Rucker isn't at that point yet, but Fanene IMHO is coming up on it fast.

Agreed. I would point out, however, that frequency of injury is only partially dependant on luck. It's also a product of conditioning, TECHNIQUE, and the athlete's 'natural' body characteristics.

Show me a history of season ending injuries year after year by one position group on any given team, and I'll show you coach(es) that are (at least partially) to blame.

[HairOnFire]

Unfortunately, our DL coach is still Jon Hayes, arguably the worst coach at his position in the league.

There is that.

In Hayes defense.....

This is where I toss off my Homer mask and step away. I admit Jon Hayes doesn't have a stable of 1st round picks to work with, but Smith had his best season before Hayes arrived and the longer Thornton has been here the less he's produced. Plus, the best DE developed under Hayes, Robert Geathers, has seen his career surge and stall and surge and stall again, in part because Hayes demanded Geathers bulk up to play a role he wasn't suited for. As for Peko, I like him just fine, but IMHO he looks no better now than he did as a rookie.

Frankly, this is the one area of the coaching staff that I felt would have been improved had one more grenade been tossed, and I have serious reservations about Hayes being in charge of revamping the Bengals defensive line, whether they stay in the 4-3 or switch to a 3-4 front.

[DesperateDerelict]

This is where I toss off my Homer mask and step away. I admit Jon Hayes doesn't have a stable of 1st round picks to work with, but Smith had his best season before Hayes arrived and the longer Thornton has been here the less he's produced. Plus, the best DE developed under Hayes, Robert Geathers, has seen his career surge and stall and surge and stall again, in part because Hayes demanded Geathers bulk up to play a role he wasn't suited for. As for Peko, I like him just fine, but IMHO he looks no better now than he did as a rookie.

Frankly, this is the one area of the coaching staff that I felt would have been improved had one more grenade been tossed, and I have serious reservations about Hayes being in charge of revamping the Bengals defensive line, whether they stay in the 4-3 or switch to a 3-4 front.

My nomination for the post of the week goes to . . . .

Senor Hair !!!

[TJJackson]

Good job hunnybunny

[HoosierCat]

I honestly don't know whether Coyle is a good coach or not, but I have to think it's a lot easier to look good when you have 3 first round picks (Hall, JJ, Deltha), 1 second (Madieu) and a former SB MVP FA (Dex) to work with.

Please.

Where did I say anything bad about Coyle? All I'm pointing out is that you'd expect a position coach given that kind of talent to produce a good unit. Conversely, any position coach would struggle with as skimpy a group as Hayes has. I wouldn't complain at all if the Bengals tossed Hayes under a bus, but IMHO the main problem on the d-line isnt coaching, it's a severe lack of talent. That's why we're all talking about Ellis and Gholston etc., right?

[DesperateDerelict]

I wouldn't complain at all if the Bengals tossed Hayes under a bus, but IMHO the main problem on the d-line isnt coaching, it's a severe lack of talent. That's why we're all talking about Ellis and Gholston etc., right?

Hoosier -

Isn't it the responsibity of the position coach to:

1) Promote the selection of the best / most helpful players in the draft or FA.

2) Coach them up

3) Insure that the players understand and can execute the game plan.

The following is a list of DL with the Bengals since 2000 - including 'big' FA signings, top draft picks, and those RESIGNED to lucrative deals>

Adams, Sam ( DT )

Askew, Matthias ( DT )

Barndt, Tom ( DT )

Booker, Vaughn ( DE )

Clemons, Duane ( DE )

Fanene, Jonathan ( DE )

Geathers, Robert ( DE )

Gibson, Oliver ( DT )

Langford, Jevon ( DE )

Lewis, Marcus ( DT )

Martin, Terrance ( DT )

Monds, Mario ( DT )

Moore, Langston ( DT )

Myers, Michael ( DT )

Ogbogu, Eric ( DE )

Patterson, Elton ( DE )

Peko, Domata ( DT )

Powell, Carl ( DE )

Robinson, Bryan ( DE )

Rucker, Frostee ( DE )

Scott, Greg ( DT )

Smith, Justin ( DE )

Smith, Ron ( DT )

Smith, Shaun ( DT )

Steele, Glen ( DT )

Thornton, John ( DT )

Whittington, Bernard ( DT )

Williams, Tony ( DT )

MISERABLE, ISN'T IT !!!

[HoosierCat]

MISERABLE, ISN'T IT !!!

Yup. I agree that Hayes hasn't done anything to show he's a better coach than, say, some randomly selected Bengalszone poster. But that list is a sad testament to just how scarce quality resources have been on the line.

[HairOnFire]

Where did I say anything bad about Coyle? All I'm pointing out is that you'd expect a position coach given that kind of talent to produce a good unit.

Calling Deltha a 1st round pick is accurate, but it ignores the fact that his CB career was in shambles before Coyle salvaged it. And again, Coyle immediately got the best out of Tory James, an aging journeyman who had never sniffed the Pro Bowl before coming to Cincy. So you're ignoring his two most striking examples of coaching players up. As for Joseph and Hall, both were named to all-rookie teams...and ahead of cornerbacks who were drafted before them.

Conversely, any position coach would struggle with as skimpy a group as Hayes has. I wouldn't complain at all if the Bengals tossed Hayes under a bus, but IMHO the main problem on the d-line isnt coaching, it's a severe lack of talent. That's why we're all talking about Ellis and Gholston etc., right?

Actually, yeah....the higher rated a prospect is the greater my hope becomes that the talent they arrive with will result in a real upgrade. Go big or stay home, ehh? But as much as I can slag the Bengals for not investing more heavily in defensive line talent I can't help feeling that in too many cases the talent that is here hasn't been used properly or hasn't developed a lick under Hayes.

Shouldn't I be able to expect more from a group that includes Justin Smith, Robert Geathers, Domato Peko, and John Thornton? Seriously, I know they're not the second coming of the 85' Bears but IMHO they should be far better than we're seeing....or have ever seen under his direction.

[HairOnFire]

Getting back to the senior Bowl coverage, Mayoch spoke a little bit about the safeties in this years draft...calling the crop of prospects the weakest of any position in the draft. He went on to say that he has DeJuan Morgan ranked higher than Kenny Phillips, and doubted that either player was worthy of being selected in the 1st round....although one might slip in at the very end of the round.

Mayocks Top Five

DeJaun Morgan

Kenny Phillips

Thomas DeCoud

Marcus Griffin

Tyrell Johnson

[HairOnFire]

I don't want Balmer at 9. But Balmer at 15 or 20? Yeah, I could see that.

I was watching NFL Live today and caught my first glance of Mel Kiper's 1st round mock.

Sedrick Ellis long gone.

Vernon Gholston off the board at #5.

Clemson DE Phillip Merling to the Bengals at #9.

Kentwan Balmer goes one pick later at #10.

Keith Rivers and Dan Connor go 30th and 31st.