Defense sucks again!

[generaldreedle]

Once again this defense showed that it is making absolutley no progress. They cannot get consistent pressure on the QB, resulting in big play after big play. When they do get presssure on the QB, the secondary waits until the receiver firmly has the ball, and a first down, before they make the tackle. Heres an idea for the secondary, how about you break up the pass play before the completetion, then there is no need to make a tackle---Brilliant!!!! This defense will once again be ranked 28th or lower in the league, and ensure us another 8-8 season....if were lucky. Bresnahan should be fired NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bengalboomer7]

They did make Joey harrington look like Joe Montanta

[711chad]

from my seat i thought joey harrigton was joe montana

[EyeoftheTiger]

The poor state of our D puts extra pressure on our O to put up big numbers to take a win.Hopefully , somehow we can get the Defense to step it up as the season gets underway.

[membengal]

Serious question. Scheme thing. Draft philosophy question too.

So...

I watch the Steelers Sunday night, and even in pre-season with "vanilla" D, they get ferocious pressure on McNabb. From the LBers. They always have LBers who can rush. Always. Why are the Bengals not able to target that same kind of LB as well? Why are we not able to identify that kind of diamond in the rough? Ever?

And, as to scheme:

What. the. f**k? Why are guys running that wide open? Always? Is there really nothing that can be done to tighten that up? I understand the Falcons were in some exotic five wide sets, and that the Lions a few weeks back are mad scientists in the pass game with Martz, and that Brees is a spread the field QB as well, but is there really not something they can put in to deal with that? Even in the pre-season? Just to, ya know, practice stopping someone? You know Brady and Roethlisberger, at the least, will spread the field in the regular season on them. Hell, even Baltimore may try that once they get a load of the pre-season tape.

What. the. f**k. is. Bres. and. ML. looking. at? Why can't this be fixed?

Year after year, I wait to see some improvement. I see no sign of improvement. None.

That team will stuggle to not be 0-4 out of the gate if the D doesn't have any better clue than that in a few weeks.

Jeebus.

[HoTbOy]

When i saw the 1st PS game in which the Bengals gave up 489 yds. passing, I said that that was not good and some fans were saying it's to early to start bitchin about the D...Well now that weve had our 3rd PS game the so-called dress rehersal for the season with the starters on both side playing deep into the game, what do you think of the D now...The run D has not been bad, but when you have teams passing on you like that, there is no need to run...Teams are going to watch tape of these PS games and exploit the Bengals, maybe we should bring DFulcher and LBreeden out of retirement what the hell the Rocket did it for the Jankees ...But seriously like someone said before I think this is another 8-8 season...The pass D sucks...

[walzav29]

Drew Brees I can deal with, but making JT O'Sullivan and Joey H. look like stars puts up a big red light in my mind. Is there a reason to NOT be concerned with the pass defense?

[GapControl]

sadly the D is a victim of circumstances.

-the D had almost no talent when Marvin took over

-Leslie Frazier was a DC that Marvin didn`t want.

-Lose Takeo, Pollack, Odell, Nate Webster, Dennis Weathersby, big Daddy, Kim Herring, Charles (forgot his last name) from West Virgina who was a 2nd rounder

-Robinson and Thornton did not come as advertised through free agency. 1 great year from Tory James

-Can`t sign any top tier FA because the O has the cash tied up

The D sucks more because of Front Office spending philosophy, ( aka Brown loves QBs), and bad injury breaks than anything else.

Remember, at 1 time we had some great LBs in Simmons, Spikes and Pollack, Thurman. All for naught.

[HoosierCat]

I watch the Steelers Sunday night, and even in pre-season with "vanilla" D, they get ferocious pressure on McNabb. From the LBers. They always have LBers who can rush. Always. Why are the Bengals not able to target that same kind of LB as well? Why are we not able to identify that kind of diamond in the rough? Ever?

Well, former Pitt LB Frazier had a sack last night, so clearly the answer is to sign LBs Pitt cuts...

Seriously, tho, I thought they got pretty good pressure all around last night -- from the DTs, the ends and the backers -- especially considering that both Geathers and Jeanty were on the sidelines, and Dex went out early. But that only happened when they tried, when they brought some heat. When they rushed 3 or 4 and dropped everyone into coverage, they were just asking to get burnt by the long ball (and often did).

What. the. f**k? Why are guys running that wide open? Always? Is there really nothing that can be done to tighten that up?

Yeah, they can quit playing this soft, big-cushion zone.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Bresnahan should be fired NOW!

I feel he should do what the former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales did yesterday and resign. His leadership of the defense has failed. Results show that he's done nothing to measurably improve their overall performance. He has also not helped them establish anything resembling pride in their identity, or any "on the field" leaders from the veteran defensive players. (Which by the way the offense seems to have no problem doing as we've seen Carson, Willie, Chad, and Rudi step forward to do time and time again.)

Why does this paradox exist on our beloved team? Why does it seem as though the defense must always be the weak sister to the offense in Cincinnati? Don't they grow tired of everyone heaping praise upon their offensive brothers, while they languish playing second fiddle in near anonymity? But on the other hand...I have questions:

Is it possible the core of the problem may go higher than Chuck Bresnahan? Could he be just another fall guy for someone elses failure, as Leslie Frazier now increasingly appears to be? Is it in any way the fault of head coach Marvin Lewis? Just a year ago or so ago suggesting such a thing would be the equivilent of religious blasphemy, but honestly...when was the last time you heard anyone say "In Marvin We Trust?" I used to hear it said and see it emblazoned in signs hung at Paul Brown Stadium at every game. Hell it was my own damn signature slogan here for a while. Sadly I can no longer use it because it isn't true for me any longer. The trust has been broken, possibly irrevocably.

But to be fair maybe the blame even goes beyond Marvin Lewis and his staff, and lays at the feet of the one many have found easy to hate in the past. Mike Brown. I just don't know. The one thing I do know is that through all of this misery I've endured with the Bengals since their last playoff win, there has been one common denominator. The son of football coaching legend Paul Brown.

[GapControl]

this dropping into coverage is just a zone blitz defense. sit in your zone, wait, read, react....

I think the reading of coverages which depend on offensive formations pre snap is really difficult in this scheme. I am guessing this is marvins scheme, not chucks.

chuck is just running it.

marvin just hasn`t got the personnel for this, yet. I think it is key to recall in a time like this, where the defense is sucking azz again, that in Baltimore and Washington the FO spends a lot of cap and cash on D players. This has never been the case with the Bengals.

[walzav29]

How long does it take to get the personel? It's been long enough. This defense has to stop sucking for this team to have a shot.

[HoosierCat]

As usual, Goheen at The Post does a pretty good job of framing the issue:

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ar...PT03/708280307/

"He'll (Marvin) always do that at halftime but this time he saw things from a different perspective and he was able to address them right away," said defensive tackle John Thornton. "Right now we're at a point where we're not trusting each other on defense. There are some guys we aren't able to trust right now but we've got two weeks to work on that.

"He was animated about it but it was needed."

That trust issue gets back to Gap's personnel issue. We had a couple starters out to begin with last then lost Dexter, too. In go career ST types (like Frazier) and raw rooks (Nduke) in addition to continuing projects like Ahmad Brooks. Some of that is attributable to injuries, both current and longer-term (like Pollack); some to the suspension of Odell; and some to the decision this past offseason to let veteran depth (like K2) go in favor of rooks and ST types. Also, there have been a lot of position changes among the vets: Peko, Landon and Geathers now starting, and nickle corner duties for Madieu.

The upshot is that the defense has not yet gelled, much less found an identity.

[agreen_112]

I'm glad the Ndukwe hype has been laid to rest, he's definitely not ready as I presumed. Talented but not ready, he's a ST'er. Dexter's still our man. As far as the other side goes, Madieu's okay at best, nothing special. Until we get some guys that are playmakers back at safety, our defense will continue to suck. Leon Hall and J. Joseph are the future and I trust that they will both excel so I have patience with these two. Keiwan's garbage, time to cut his slow, sorry ass. Deltha should've stuck with his man, there was nobody else on that side of the field when he let him go for the TD, that wasn't entirely Ndukwe's fault, he was split between two wR's both who couldv'e scored. I believe they were in man coverage when Deltha let him go for the TD, feel sorry for Deltha in the filmroom today and for the losing of his job halfway through the season.

LB's looked pretty good. Landon was a standout, had some pretty big plays. I think this will be his best year. We have a long way to go, but I think this group will do good this year. I'm praying that Ahmad can hold it down.

I have a question, actually It's probably the same question everyone's wondering; Why in the hell were the safeties playing between 15-20 yards back? 20 freaking yards? How can a safety lay a big hit or provide any kind of help playing that far back when there is only 10 yards to gain? I couldn't stand to watch Harrington boo-boo pick us apart like that. This will be a long season if they don't get that figured out. Bring in the safeties just a lil' bit Marv, damn.

9-7 if our D doesn't get their s**t together!

[GapControl]

For me, that sounds like Thornton being diplomatic but really meaning guys don`t know their assignments. Sure, of course. It is personnel. The newly acquired LB Marshall, ST guys going to scrimmage, and rooks starting or near starting just don`t know this playbook.

It is going to be real shaky to begin the season. We might get past Baltimore in the first 4 but I am not sold on beating the other teams. One thing I don`t like about our D this year and previously is the tendency to bounce LBs from spot to spot. It seems DB will be bouncing spot to spot also this year.

Hmmmm.... when you consider the amount of material a player must learn in order to be able to switch from WB to MB or from NB to FS throughout a game that must be something, huh?

[Jet23]

ML's defensive philosophy was great for Baltimore, but it is killing the Bengals. Why not bring pressure, every damn receiver is running wide open anyway? He should have kept Frazier, because Brez is horrible!

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I really don't need to hear more excuses about "trust" and "it'll come togther."

QB's since all of last season are throwing for insane completion percentages and I don't care what the reason or excuse is - it shouldn't be happening. Breshnahan is a moron and I shudder to think we have to watch this garbage for another full season - I can only pray the regular season shows us something different.

QB's the last two preseason games:

49 of 70-521 yards

That's INSANE - there's too much talent on the defense for anyone to do that - so I have to blame the coordinator/position coaches and their stupid philosophy.

[agreen_112]

I really don't need to hear more excuses about "trust" and "it'll come togther."

QB's since all of last season are throwing for insane completion percentages and I don't care what the reason or excuse is - it shouldn't be happening. Breshnahan is a moron and I shudder to think we have to watch this garbage for another full season - I can only pray the regular season shows us something different.

QB's the last two preseason games:

49 of 70-521 yards

That's INSANE - there's too much talent on the defense for anyone to do that - so I have to blame the coordinator/position coaches and their stupid philosophy.

Where's all this talent In ur opinion?

[Jet23]

I really don't need to hear more excuses about "trust" and "it'll come togther."

QB's since all of last season are throwing for insane completion percentages and I don't care what the reason or excuse is - it shouldn't be happening. Breshnahan is a moron and I shudder to think we have to watch this garbage for another full season - I can only pray the regular season shows us something different.

QB's the last two preseason games:

49 of 70-521 yards

That's INSANE - there's too much talent on the defense for anyone to do that - so I have to blame the coordinator/position coaches and their stupid philosophy.

Where's all this talent In ur opinion?

Smith, Peko, Geathers, Hall, Joseph, M. Williams, L. Johnson, Deltha. That is enough to at least be respectable. When you don't have a clue, you may as well pin your ears back and try to kill the qb. Given time, the worst qbs in football can pick them apart.

[membengal]

What's the philosophy behind a big soft-cushion zone?

I seriously don't get it. That scheme practically guarantees first down after first down to opposing offenses.

[HoosierCat]

Where's all this talent In ur opinion?

Yup. Our LBs and DTs are, across the board, unspectacular. At best you have an above-average guy like Peko or Landon. Maybe Hartwell. But for the most part it's special teamers, career backups and bargain-bin FAs. At DE we have some good players, but one injury and it's back to B-flop, like last night. In the secondary, Hall and JJoe (not to mention White and Nduke) are all still learning, and vets Dexter, O'Neal and Madieu all boast inconsistent, injury-plagued careers.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Yup. Our LBs and DTs are, across the board, unspectacular. At best you have an above-average guy like Peko or Landon. Maybe Hartwell. But for the most part it's special teamers, career backups and bargain-bin FAs.

I agree, which results in us having mediocre run defense

At DE we have some good players, but one injury and it's back to B-flop, like last night. In the secondary, Hall and JJoe (not to mention White and Nduke) are all still learning, and vets Dexter, O'Neal and Madieu all boast inconsistent, injury-plagued careers.

So that's the core of our pass defense: DEs Smith and Geathers are great pass rushers, and the DTs get enough push to help out. We've invested a lot in CBs, they're really not bad. Dexter is pretty good. Madieu is good. They may be injured throughout their careers - but they're not injured NOW, and the D sucked with them too. We have more than enough talent to be a top 10-15 passing defense. There is absolutely no excuse for not being that, other than the fact that the schemes are a joke.

To address something that agreen said, about us needing playmaking safeties: the schemes have to put them in position to do that. Right now, Chuck generally has them playing way back. The base defense is basically a prevent zone, where you have everyone sitting back and reacting. We could have Polamalu or Harrison, they wouldn't look very good in these schemes.

And another thing that's bad about Chuck's defense - you can read it like a book. Some teams I honestly have trouble picking out the DEs vs LBs before the snap, blitzers vs. coverage LBs, etc. Chicago and NE do a great job of that. Our D, I look at it before the snap and I know exactly what every player will do, pretty much. That lets the QB read the D in about a second pre-snap, so he has time to think about what he's going to do. That's part of why our D schemes even make *Chris Redman* look good.

That's another thing that convinces me it's the schemes - you might argue that our starters aren't as talented, but I'm not convinced any team's 3rd string is any better than any other. And even 3rd string QBs light us up.

So OK, it's preseason. You could argue that it's the plain vanilla D, not what we'll see week 1. Two problems with that: 1) it's week 3, so presumably what you see is what you get. 2) it's the same schemes I saw last year too.

[agreen_112]

I really don't need to hear more excuses about "trust" and "it'll come togther."

QB's since all of last season are throwing for insane completion percentages and I don't care what the reason or excuse is - it shouldn't be happening. Breshnahan is a moron and I shudder to think we have to watch this garbage for another full season - I can only pray the regular season shows us something different.

QB's the last two preseason games:

49 of 70-521 yards

That's INSANE - there's too much talent on the defense for anyone to do that - so I have to blame the coordinator/position coaches and their stupid philosophy.

Where's all this talent In ur opinion?

Smith, Peko, Geathers, Hall, Joseph, M. Williams, L. Johnson, Deltha. That is enough to at least be respectable. When you don't have a clue, you may as well pin your ears back and try to kill the qb. Given time, the worst qbs in football can pick them apart.

Where's all this talent In ur opinion?

Yup. Our LBs and DTs are, across the board, unspectacular. At best you have an above-average guy like Peko or Landon. Maybe Hartwell. But for the most part it's special teamers, career backups and bargain-bin FAs. At DE we have some good players, but one injury and it's back to B-flop, like last night. In the secondary, Hall and JJoe (not to mention White and Nduke) are all still learning, and vets Dexter, O'Neal and Madieu all boast inconsistent, injury-plagued careers.

I agree with Hoosier. There seems to be no hope for our D. I don't see any above average guys beside Landon (Who only gets my respect because of his toughness and how he finished the season last year), Peko, Geathers and Smith, Joseph... Hall hasn't had enough reps for me to call him a stud yet but I'm sure he'll be better than Deltha. Madieu has shown us what he's got and he's basically just an average FS, nothing spectactular. We need a MLB, SSLB, FS, SS, DT (we'll see how Myers/Allen pan out, to me there bottom barrell FA's). That's atleast 5 out of the 11 spots that are weak. You can't have that many weak spots and have a winning defense, it aint gonna happen.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Where's all this talent In ur opinion?

Yup. Our LBs and DTs are, across the board, unspectacular. At best you have an above-average guy like Peko or Landon. Maybe Hartwell. But for the most part it's special teamers, career backups and bargain-bin FAs. At DE we have some good players, but one injury and it's back to B-flop, like last night. In the secondary, Hall and JJoe (not to mention White and Nduke) are all still learning, and vets Dexter, O'Neal and Madieu all boast inconsistent, injury-plagued careers.

JJ and Hall are 1st round picks - they should be starters and solid based on the position they were drafted - these are not projects and should be immediate impact types - JJ is in his second year - it's what 1st round picks are for. Hall was rated as the best CB in the last draft.

Madeiu - he's healthy and in his what, 4th year? Should be a solid safety and is very capable of it

Geathers had 11.5 sacks last year - Justin is a solid vet making a ton of $ - Fanene, Rucker, Jeanty - all have talent and pass rushing abilities

They have a deep rotation of tackles in Thorton, Peko, Allen, Robinson and Myers - who've all had success here and elsewhere and are veteran players now except for Peko - arguably their best tackle at the moment. Not great, but not terrible either.

Brooks was a 1st round projection with raw talent in his 2nd year we spent a 3rd rounder on - in his 2nd year here, he should not be struggling like he is

Landon is a solid NFL LB, Hartwell should be as well and is healthy, and Mitchell is another proven commodity in his role - I make no bones about the LB's not reaching their potential or not being a strong group though. Maybe Hunley needs to be scrutinized like Breshnahan.

I see talent enough to win games and not give up 400-500 yards passing every week to crappy 2nd tier QB's.

Deltha O'Neal was arguably the best CB in the league in 2005 - not sure why the coaching staff is incapable of motivating him and the Bengals' refused to re-do his contract after getting what they wanted out of him - now you have an unhappy player.

My point is that it's not a world beater defense - but talented and deep enough to play quite a bit better than what they've shown.

Stop making excuses for everyone!

[agreen_112]

Yup. Our LBs and DTs are, across the board, unspectacular. At best you have an above-average guy like Peko or Landon. Maybe Hartwell. But for the most part it's special teamers, career backups and bargain-bin FAs.

I agree, which results in us having mediocre run defense

At DE we have some good players, but one injury and it's back to B-flop, like last night. In the secondary, Hall and JJoe (not to mention White and Nduke) are all still learning, and vets Dexter, O'Neal and Madieu all boast inconsistent, injury-plagued careers.

So that's the core of our pass defense: DEs Smith and Geathers are great pass rushers, and the DTs get enough push to help out. We've invested a lot in CBs, they're really not bad. Dexter is pretty good. Madieu is good. They may be injured throughout their careers - but they're not injured NOW, and the D sucked with them too. We have more than enough talent to be a top 10-15 passing defense. There is absolutely no excuse for not being that, other than the fact that the schemes are a joke.

To address something that agreen said, about us needing playmaking safeties: the schemes have to put them in position to do that. Right now, Chuck generally has them playing way back. The base defense is basically a prevent zone, where you have everyone sitting back and reacting. We could have Polamalu or Harrison, they wouldn't look very good in these schemes.

And another thing that's bad about Chuck's defense - you can read it like a book. Some teams I honestly have trouble picking out the DEs vs LBs before the snap, blitzers vs. coverage LBs, etc. Chicago and NE do a great job of that. Our D, I look at it before the snap and I know exactly what every player will do, pretty much. That lets the QB read the D in about a second pre-snap, so he has time to think about what he's going to do. That's part of why our D schemes even make *Chris Redman* look good.

That's another thing that convinces me it's the schemes - you might argue that our starters aren't as talented, but I'm not convinced any team's 3rd string is any better than any other. And even 3rd string QBs light us up.

So OK, it's preseason. You could argue that it's the plain vanilla D, not what we'll see week 1. Two problems with that: 1) it's week 3, so presumably what you see is what you get. 2) it's the same schemes I saw last year too.

That's a great outlook and I think your right. I hope they make major adjustments, like firing Bres.