Are Mike and Marvin on the same page?

[BZBot]

A lack of depth due to injuries and suspensions is starting to make me wonder who is making the decisions.

Source: http://www.bengalszone.com/article.php?sid=558

[HoosierCat]

Interesting thought, walzav. FWIW I don't get the sense that there's any serious friction between Mikey and Marvin...but I do believe that the FO has, for lack of a better word, tendencies that in some cases aren't shared by the HC, and in others have just bit them on the arse this year.

An obvious one is the FO's habit, prior to last April, of giving potential draft choices the benefit of the doubt on character issues. Marvin has made it clear he takes character issues more seriously.

Another is the FOs view that guards aren't worth top dollar. That factored into their thinking in keeping Willie over Steiney, and right now it looks like that decision may come back to haunt them.

And yeah, the FO does usually reward loyalty. So you keep Willie over Eric and franchise Justin. Although that particular tendency seemed to fade out this past offseason, with the cut of Simmons and non-retention of some long-time role players.

But outside the draft, I'm not sure that in the end Marvin would have done things much differently.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Good write-up, expect to get some hate mail for daring to question the king and his servant.

I questioned all of the $ they put into Levi and Willie in the same off-season, given their injury history and Willie's deteriorating condition and age. Whitworth could take over for Levi or Willie at this point.

It seems some times loyalty and taking the "easy road" are the only way Mike Brown wants to operate. Never changes it seems.

Think how much cap space they could save w/o Justin Smith and Willie - they could've easily re-signed Bach or another center, guard or tackle, or RB, and drafted a Usama Young at CB in the 2nd versus Irons.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

In general, I think it would have been a better idea to keep Steinbach than Willie, and I believe I said so a number of times. Problem is, he went up for FA the year after Hutchinson's contract blew the G numbers out of the water. So his value went sky-high.

At the same time, they had Justin coming up for FA too, and could only franchise one of them. So I think they did a relatively smart thing - franchise Justin and put a tender on Steinbach. What I can't remember - what level did they give him? I'd surely have used at least the "1st round pick" level, he was worth it. I don't think they did, though, which I don't understand.

So basically, when doing the math on that decision, how good of pick(s) are we getting?

[HoosierCat]

They didn't tender Steinbach, he was an unrestricted FA.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

They didn't tender Steinbach, he was an unrestricted FA.

Ah crap, thought he was RFA. Well, there goes that theory.

[HairOnFire]

Fun fact: If they would have re-signed Steinbach he would currently be on the injured list instead of Big Willie...who would be playing elsewhere.

Proving what 2nd guessers have always know, that no matter what steps are taken the panic button is always within reach.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Fun fact: If they would have re-signed Steinbach he would currently be on the injured list instead of Big Willie...who would be playing elsewhere.

Proving what 2nd guessers have always know, that no matter what steps are taken the panic button is always within reach.

That kind of revisionist analysis is always pointless. I'm sure Irons wouldn't have been injured if he got drafted by another team, chances are Steinbach would have been healthy if he were still here. If you're going to analyze a decision that was made in the past, you have to stick with the information that was actually available then, or else you have no point.

[HairOnFire]

Fun fact: If they would have re-signed Steinbach he would currently be on the injured list instead of Big Willie...who would be playing elsewhere.

Proving what 2nd guessers have always know, that no matter what steps are taken the panic button is always within reach.

That kind of revisionist analysis is always pointless. I'm sure Irons wouldn't have been injured if he got drafted by another team, chances are Steinbach would have been healthy if he were still here. If you're going to analyze a decision that was made in the past, you have to stick with the information that was actually available then, or else you have no point.

I'd say it's more than a little unfair for whining second guessers to engage in endless speculation and then casually ignore the fact that Steinbach is currently injured. The fact remains that if he were here the very same whining voices would be bemoaning the fact that Steinbach was one of the 19 currently injured Bengals OR wasn't worth the money he was paid to flay backwards before bouncing to a rest infront of Carson Palmer's feet. Plus, there would be the predictable whining about how a loyal foot soldier like Willie Anderson was allowed to leave in FA.....just as the same people who are whining about how much it cost to keep Justin Smith would have whined about how he wasn't adequately replaced yet.

Blah, blah, blah.

BTW, why are you so sure that Iron's would be healthy if drafted by another team?

It was a non-contact injury, right?

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Nah you just don't pay tackles who can barely walk, who've been around over 10 years, money you thought he should've deserved 5-7 years ago, and the two players you drafted as replacements, are now out of position and shuffled around because you refuse to pay interior lineman or draft any on day one consistently as a result.

Most comptent teams would've drafted a replacement for Levi a year ago when they learned he was "knock kneed" and could very well have long term knee problems, and was too expensive as a result, and plugged Whitworth in Willie's spot and let Willie go when his contract was up - and move on.

I was ALWAYS fine with letting Justin Smith go after last year and said as much - as we can see guys like Fanene, Rucker and Hendersen are perfectly capable of providing a pass rush. It's just too bad they can't sign or draft any LB's after 5 years who are worth a damn to make up for Justin's hustle behind him still.

Despite all this you can only hope they come out ok and Willie has something left in the tank, and Levi's knee actually heals 100% for now.

What a nightmare it will be, possibly, having to watch an oline of Guy-chick, Kooistra, Andrews and Whitworth all play together to start the season - egads. Kiss the playoffs good-bye if that occurs. Alexander hasn't done anything with Andrews or Guy-chick so far - they're both well below average NFL lineman....that's a fact.

And even if Levi comes back - the most ridiculous part of this poor management is that Whit hasn't had enough time at LG to take over for Andrews and will be on the bench for a while - leaving your next best lineman on the sidelines because of crappy roster management from the FO.

Just sick of the stupidity, continued poor drafting and ridiculous cap allotments from Mike Brown. The man is still a football moron.

[bengalsfansince68]

Alexander hasn't done anything with Andrews or Guy-chick so far - they're both well below average NFL lineman....that's a fact.

That, sir, is 100% your opinion, and absolutely not a fact!!!

Crissakes!!!

U R killin' me!!!

[Kazkal]

Another is the FOs view that guards aren't worth top dollar. That factored into their thinking in keeping Willie over Steiney, and right now it looks like that decision may come back to haunt them.

Meh I'm really not worried about willie he should be playing week 1,Plus if we would have redone steinbach instead of willie then I'd still be worried just rather if he's going start the season if he's gonna be able to protect Carson without getting his knee blown out.

[bengalboomer7]

Fun fact: If they would have re-signed Steinbach he would currently be on the injured list instead of Big Willie...who would be playing elsewhere.

Proving what 2nd guessers have always know, that no matter what steps are taken the panic button is always within reach.

That kind of revisionist analysis is always pointless. I'm sure Irons wouldn't have been injured if he got drafted by another team, chances are Steinbach would have been healthy if he were still here. If you're going to analyze a decision that was made in the past, you have to stick with the information that was actually available then, or else you have no point.

I'd say it's more than a little unfair for whining second guessers to engage in endless speculation and then casually ignore the fact that Steinbach is currently injured. The fact remains that if he were here the very same whining voices would be bemoaning the fact that Steinbach was one of the 19 currently injured Bengals OR wasn't worth the money he was paid to flay backwards before bouncing to a rest infront of Carson Palmer's feet. Plus, there would be the predictable whining about how a loyal foot soldier like Willie Anderson was allowed to leave in FA.....just as the same people who are whining about how much it cost to keep Justin Smith would have whined about how he wasn't adequately replaced yet.

Blah, blah, blah.

BTW, why are you so sure that Iron's would be healthy if drafted by another team?

It was a non-contact injury, right?

Isn't whining about others whining still in fact whining?

[chrishcovga]

Whether Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis are on the Same page doesn't matter. What matters is the product on the field.

Let's Look at Marvin's Pros..

1. Over saw the change of an entire franchise and it's mindset.

2. Made the Decision to draft Carson Palmer over Byron Leftwich. - Saw to it that the first 4 picks of the '03 draft had high round grades.

3. Became the face of the franchise despite the characters / Chad, Rudi, Carson etc. which is admirable to say the least.

4. Has Never had a Losing season.

- There are more, but these stand out

Marvin's Cons'

1. As well as he has drafted, the talent on the field has not remained on the field. Steinbach,Washington,The cornerback from Oregon State, Pollack, Henry, Thurman, Moore, Linebacker from Mars Hill, etc. etc.

2. Marvin does not have Control of his players off the field. - Yes it's true that these are relatively grown men, but The Patriots don't have people committing crimes. The Raiders don't have people committing crimes. Marvin said he wanted to change the persona of the team and it's history , while the wins have come in more frequency, but the laughing stock persona has remained by all the off the field incidents.

3. As a Defensive Guru, he has been unable to get the Defense right !! Considering the quality of Coach and person that he is, Why hasn't he been able to lure a High profile Defensive co-ordinator to work for him ???

4. Has let the Front Office dictate what players will be on his team. - It was the same mistake that Bruce Coslet did, and it ultimately drove him out of the league.

vs. Mike Brown

Mike Brown is and will always be the cause of Cancer, Aids, Syphillis , Death, Crime in the streets, and Satan's personal caddy in Hell !

- He is the Anti-Brown. Everything his father the great Paul Brown was, His son is the complete Opposite. There is NO good thing in him.

Mike Brown actually believes that his daughter and son in Law running the finances of the team is the equivalent of hiring a General Manager ???? He doesn't think this is a conflict of interest, since after 12 terrible seasons he finally agreed to hire a coaching staff that didn't work for the Bengals in some form or fashion previously with Marvin Lewis.

If Marvin Lewis is going to fix this team, then he has to have someone in the Front Office making moves that guarantees that he will have talent to field a team with.

Right Now, Marvin Lewis is asked to be Paul Crewe, and pick from a bunch of crap , derelicts, criminals, and Mike Brown is still the EVIL warden.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Mike Brown is and will always be the cause of Cancer, Aids, Syphillis , Death, Crime in the streets, and Satan's personal caddy in Hell! - He is the Anti-Brown. Everything his father the great Paul Brown was, His son is the complete Opposite. There is NO good thing in him.

What if someone put a foot in his a$$. Wouldn't that be good?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'd say it's more than a little unfair for whining second guessers to engage in endless speculation and then casually ignore the fact that Steinbach is currently injured. The fact remains that if he were here the very same whining voices would be bemoaning the fact that Steinbach was one of the 19 currently injured Bengals OR wasn't worth the money he was paid to flay backwards before bouncing to a rest infront of Carson Palmer's feet. Plus, there would be the predictable whining about how a loyal foot soldier like Willie Anderson was allowed to leave in FA.....just as the same people who are whining about how much it cost to keep Justin Smith would have whined about how he wasn't adequately replaced yet.

Blah, blah, blah.

I 'whine' just to give you something to b*tch at people about so your life can be complete. Save your lectures for someone who cares.

Additionally, don't lump everyone together. If you're responding to me, *I* stated at the time I thought it would be a better idea to keep Steinbach *if possible*. Well, guess what? The FA deal the Browns threw at him made that impossible, so we deal with it. If they would have let Willie go, *I* wouldn't have claimed it was wrong to do so. I realize it's more convenient for your strawman arguments if you can cherrypick from the entire board when responding to one person, but it's lame. If you're responding to someone and wish to bring up the past, use their own posts only, or knock it off.

But saying, 'oh, wow, glad we didn't keep him because he got injured in Cleveland' is stupid in the extreme, because if he played for us he wouldn't actually BE in Cleveland. And again, using current information to analyze a past decision is just dumb.

[membengal]

I guess I don't understand the issue.

How are the flurry of injuries indicitive of Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis being not on the same page? If anything, the injuries have shown we have depth. It's just that we don't have depth beyond the depth. Frankly, few if any teams in the NFL do.

If Willie and Levi can go, I feel pretty good about our depth at O-line. If they can't? I don't feel good about what is behind those that must fill in for them. But that would be the same for any team in the NFL.

Oh, and no part of me is sad the the Bengals passed on spending $49 million dollars on a guard who twice caused Carson Palmer to have season ending injuries...

[HoosierCat]

Additionally, don't lump everyone together. If you're responding to me,

He isn't responding to anyone, just tossing out flame bait. Look around, he did the same thing in half a dozen or more threads yesterday. Don't feed the trolls.

[HairOnFire]

Additionally, don't lump everyone together. If you're responding to me,

He isn't responding to anyone, just tossing out flame bait. Look around, he did the same thing in half a dozen or more threads yesterday. Don't feed the trolls.

I'm not the poster who offered the fairly accurate desriptions of so many of you as panty bunchers or panic button pushers...so I'm not the only one here who has made note of the hand wringers tired act.

Like it or not there are quite a few of you who consistently lose your water at the first sign of adversity, and far too often you do so without reason. For example, how many of you whined and worried about how none of the rookies were signed days or even weeks before camp opened?

Yet when all was said and done what was the result? One player missing a total of three practices?

So how come so many of you you guys can't hold your water long enough to see what actually happens? To my knowledge there's no prize handed out to the most pannicky poster so what's the rush?

As for who is the troll around here, how about the so-called fans who question everything the team does, and everything it doesn't do? Show me a troll and I'll show you a fugtard who can't stop talking about how the team is cursed. Or the poster who can't stop himself from blaming Mike Brown for the injuries suffered by Bengal players.

Sheesh, we go through this every year, don't we? Moe is me, and woe is us. Squeaky wheels demanding grease, panty bunchers demanding attention, wet blankets demanding their right to constantly worry about everything.

But you're not trolls, right?

[HairOnFire]

I guess I don't understand the issue.

How are the flurry of injuries indicitive of Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis being not on the same page? If anything, the injuries have shown we have depth. It's just that we don't have depth beyond the depth. Frankly, few if any teams in the NFL do.

Seems to me you understand the issue very well.

[DesperateDerelict]

Moe is me

HOF, your Freudian slip is showing.

But you're not trolls, right?

Right down to my (blue) hair roots !!!

LET"S KEEP IT LIGHT, FOLKS ==> IT'S STILL PRESEASON, & VICK WAS NEVER A BENGAL!