DT Michael Myers visit PBS/signs with the Bengals

[HoosierCat]

Whur is just a classic example of whiney fans bitching when the Bengals don't sign players in March, and then mocking and ridiculing who they do sign in April. Damned if they do, damned if the don't.

Yeah, and there's no difference in the quality of FA you get in April versus march. Impact players are stilll everywhere, right?

And no, DC, you -- and 30 other teams -- didn't miss anything. We just signed yet another aging DT, this time one who is so good he's been cut by two teams and traded by a third (and that team was Cleveland, no less!). Frankly, I'm not even sure he makes the final roster; certainly there isn't much point in him doing so if Marvin and Chuck are going to continue to insist on playing Fear the Fanene.

Now, if Harwell is healthy and they land him, that could make some difference. But Myers? BFD.

[Stripes]

Yeah, and there's no difference in the quality of FA you get in April versus march. Impact players are stilll everywhere, right?

That's just the thing. One must compare the difference in quality with the difference in price. No offense to you or WCA, but this looks like a much better way of filling the roster IMO.

[mjm47]

Also, it's not like there were a bunch of tackes on the free-agent market to begin with. Almost every top-flight guy in the front four got franchised this year (including the under-rated #90).

The only available guy rated higher than Myers was Ian Scott (http://proxy.espn.go.com/nfl/fa) - I have to imagine that the front office is capable of deciding betwen the two and I'm inclined to defer to their knowledge because I, unlike WCA and Hoosier, lack a lifetime of experience watching and evaluating football talent and the facilities to review years of game tape.

[HoosierCat]

That's just the thing. One must compare the difference in quality with the difference in price. No offense to you or WCA, but this looks like a much better way of filling the roster IMO.

OK, admit it, youre really Mike Brown, right?

Also, it's not like there were a bunch of tackes on the free-agent market to begin with.

And I said there were where? The issue is the Bengals' consistent failure to seriously address DT position at all. Forget FA -- the last time we took a day 1 DT in the draft was Big Daddy.

I may not have a film room, but the Cowboys do. And the broncos do. And the Browns do. And what did they do with Myers? Kicked him to the curb, right? But that means nothing, right? Since the bengals signed him, he must be a stud, eh? And of course, had they not, Bengals fans would have dismissed him as a bum.

Praised if they do, praised if they don't...

[Stripes]

OK, admit it, youre really Mike Brown, right?

Eh, just on Fridays. Monday through Thursday I'm Geoff Hobson, and Saturday/Sunday I'm Troy Blackburn.

Praised if they do, praised if they don't...

A fair point, albeit a sarcastic one.

For the record, I have opposed many moves the Bengals have made in my day, but I've seen few reasons for that during Marvin's tenure. I just think they're doing it right.

[derekshank]

Praised if they do, praised if they don't...

...right. There aren't many here saying that Myers is going to be a stud starter. Just a replacement for S. Smith, and he is more than capable of that. He's gotten more production in the last 3 years than anyone currently on the roster, and he has started every damn game. So what's the point in bitching about the signing of a veteran to act as a role player? When you can get a guy who has been starting for the Broncos for 2 straight seasons, and their defense has been consistently one of the better defenses in the NFL, I don't see how you can complain about it.

I'm also not so dumb that I don't understand the difference between signing Michael Myers and signing Adalius Thomas... but it is a philosophy difference. Build through the draft, get role players through free agency. When the Bengals sign these role players, fans like you roll their eyes acting as if the Bengals claim to be building through free agency, but are just too incompetent to do it well.

So, what category do you fall in? Are you so stubborn and arrogant that you think that you could run a franchise in the same way as Dan Snyder, yet with better results, or you are too dumb to understand the Bengals adopt a different philosphy?

[Stripes]

C'mon folks, let's act like grown-ups and disagree peaceably (directed at myself and much as anyone else). This board is better than that.

[HoosierCat]

I'm also not so dumb that I don't understand the difference between signing Michael Myers and signing Adalius Thomas... but it is a philosophy difference. Build through the draft, get role players through free agency.

Fine, let's build through the draft. So...where is all the defensive line talent we've drafted?

I'm sorry, but I'm fed up with aging vet DT FAs. Just as the offense starts with the offensive line, the defense starts with the defensive line. Draft? The last time we took a day 1 DT was 13 years ago. And since then we've taken just 5, count 'em, 5 day 2 DTs. If you want to know why our D consistently stinks, there's a pretty big clue.

Myers is business as usual. And business as usual isn't going to improve this D.

[mjm47]

I think that you also have to realize that building through the draft is not a panacea - there simply aren't enough picks to staff twenty two spots.

Last year, there were two d-linemen taken after the Bengals selected at 24: the Bills took McCargo at 26 and the Giants took Kiwanuka at 32. McCargo was, from what I've read (and I'm not implying that I'm an expert) a bust. Kiwanuka had a good season and looks like a solid pick, but I'm not sure I'd prefer him to Geathers or Smith.

The year before, the Bengals may have missed by not drafting Luis Castillo who fell to the Chargers at 28.

However, from my limited knowledge, it seems to me that certain positions are simply easier to fill. You can't have it both ways is what I'm saying - I think that everybody was pleased with Pollack and Joseph (I know that I am).

I think that DT, like some other positions (guard, fullback, receiver) can generally be adequately staffed without 1st round picks.

There's no reason to think that paying a veteran with pretty good numbers less than paying an untested S. Smith who couldn't even make the field most weeks is not a good idea. If we want Round 1 talent at corner, linebacker and end, something's got to give.

[Stripes]

And since then we've taken just 5, count 'em, 5 day 2 DTs.

Marvin has been responsible for three (and a half) of them though (Langston Moore, Matthias Askew, Domata Peko, Jonathan Fanene). I agree that the problem should have been addressed a while ago, but regardless it is being addressed in the present. John Thornton, Bryan Robinson, Sam Adams, and Michael Myers may all fit the same description as free agents, but Marvin has tried to find players in the draft to being up behind them. He looks like may have finally found one capable of making a difference in Peko. Other than that, there haven't been all that many productive day one DTs available for the taking.

First day DTs over the last four years (first rounders listed before the dashes):

2006: Haloti Ngata, Broderick Bunkley, John McCargo -- Claude Wroten, Dusty Dvoracek

2005: Travis Johnson, Luis Castillo, Mike Patterson -- Shaun Cody, Johnathan Babineaux, Sione Pouha, Atiyya Ellison

2004: Tommie Harris, Vince Wilfork -- Igor Olshansky, Junior Siavii, Tank Johnson, Dwan Edwards, Darnell Dockett, Randy Starks, Donnell Washington, Tim Anderson

2003: Dwayne Robertson, Johnathan Sullivan, Kevin Williams, Jimmy Kennedy, William Joseph -- Anthony Adams, Cory Redding, Wayne Hunter, Kenny Peterson

---

There are certainly some impressive first rounders listed, but beyond that, the only good players I see are Igor Olshansky, Tank Johnson, and Cory Redding (all of whom were selected before the Bengals picks in the 2nd round).

[HoosierCat]

I think that you also have to realize that building through the draft is not a panacea - there simply aren't enough picks to staff twenty two spots.

Well, as the guy who is always urging the team to do more in FA, I would humbly suggest that that's my point! If you would like to explain that to those who don't agree with me, I will happily cover your back!

I think that DT, like some other positions (guard, fullback, receiver) can generally be adequately staffed without 1st round picks.

DT is indeed one of the toughest positions to fill -- which is exactly why you need to pay special attention to it in the draft, and if you don't, why you have to consider paying top dollar in FA. Neither is a guarantee of success, but clearly ignoring DT until late in the draft and signing only old washed up dudes hasn't worked, either.

If we want Round 1 talent at corner, linebacker and end, something's got to give.

If you have a good defensive line you don't need round 1 talent behind it, or at least as much of it.

Other than that, there haven't been all that many productive day one DTs available for the taking.

Great. All the more reason to dedicate top dollar in FA on DT, right? I mean, you can't have it both ways -- either you build through the draft or you build through FA. Now I'm being told that we are doing neither...well, yeah, I agree.

[Stripes]

Great. All the more reason to dedicate top dollar in FA on DT, right? I mean, you can't have it both ways -- either you build through the draft or you build through FA. Now I'm being told that we are doing neither...well, yeah, I agree.

Perhaps, though I suspect the Bengals view that scenario as lose-lose. Either they overspend on free agent DTs (whom haven't been overly impressive in FA either) or they reach for questionable draft picks.

Instead, they've brought in players from the bargain bin and taken their chances on the second day with DTs (at least with Marvin). Moore and Askew amounted to very little, but it seems they've got their guy now. It may seem absurd from an immediate impact standpoint, but they've been able to use that money on other measures that are just as important (and IMO more important) -- the offensive core.

[mjm47]

I think that I did a poor job of explaining myself. What I meant to say is that I believe that the front office is making smart moves with this signing and with the past few years' drafts.

My understanding of the ways that defenses works leads me to prefer first round talent in the back seven (understanding that you simply can't afford to have first round talent in all eleven positions). For every first rounder [or expensive free agent (let's assume that they equate)] you have, you need one or more role players to ensure that you have a sustainable base and depth chart to avoid cap hell (i.e. Titans and Ravens of years past).

I didn't mean to imply that I view DT as an unimportant position, simply one that can be triaged to a lower priority assuming that those in the back seven are playing at a high level.

[HoosierCat]

Instead, they've brought in players from the bargain bin and taken their chances on the second day with DTs (at least with Marvin). Moore and Askew amounted to very little, but it seems they've got their guy now.

They have one guy, maybe, now. At that rate, they'll have another just in time for Peko to be an RFA. And who knows what we'll have out of the bargain bin then.

I didn't mean to imply that I view DT as an unimportant position, simply one that can be triaged to a lower priority assuming that those in the back seven are playing at a high level.

Well, you and I have a fundamental disagreement then. I regard the defensive line as where the D begins and ends. Look at the Bears last year, the Ravens in 2000, or those great Tampa defenses as examples. They all had a$$-kicking defensive lines -- and those went a long way to making the rest of the defense look good.

[mjm47]

Instead, they've brought in players from the bargain bin and taken their chances on the second day with DTs (at least with Marvin). Moore and Askew amounted to very little, but it seems they've got their guy now.

They have one guy, maybe, now. At that rate, they'll have another just in time for Peko to be an RFA. And who knows what we'll have out of the bargain bin then.

See, here's the irreducible conflict - I see no reason to assume that everything will go terribly wrong in the future while others accept this as the default position. At some point, there's no point in talking because these underlying outlooks are in conflict and none of us are predisposed to change our basic outlooks.

Well, you and I have a fundamental disagreement then. I regard the defensive line as where the D begins and ends. Look at the Bears last year, the Ravens in 2000, or those great Tampa defenses as examples. They all had a$$-kicking defensive lines -- and those went a long way to making the rest of the defense look good.

I don't disagree - a great defensive line is fantastic. Maybe we both need to realize that neither the front four nor the back seven will play well without the compliment of the other - it's a symbiotic relationship and both areas require attention.

As far as "fundamental disagreement" go, I'd still rather be here than go-bengals.com - they drive me nuts.

[HoosierCat]

See, here's the irreducible conflict - I see no reason to assume that everything will go terribly wrong in the future while others accept this as the default position. At some point, there's no point in talking because these underlying outlooks are in conflict and none of us are predisposed to change our basic outlooks.

I'm not making any assumptions that things will go "terribly wrong." I'm simply making the assumption that things will pretty much go the way they have. Past performance may not be a guarantee of future success or failure -- but that's no reason to dismiss it, either. And again, the Bengals ignoring DT in the draft and filling in with aging vets is hardly a new thing. It's pretty much standard operating procedure, so much so I mocked it with a sign elsewhere. Maybe Myers turns out to be the second coming -- but most likely he's just another vet cashing a last paycheck. Maybe DT X who gets taken on day 2 this year (if, indeed, one is taken) is Peko II. But the odds are at least as good he's Askew II.

Maybe we both need to realize that neither the front four nor the back seven will play well without the compliment of the other - it's a symbiotic relationship and both areas require attention.

Both are important, but I'll argue that you get further starting with a good line than with a good back seven. As evidence I'll submit, well, the Bengals.

As far as "fundamental disagreement" go, I'd still rather be here than go-bengals.com - they drive me nuts.

Well, you're welcome here. You have to put up with me, tho.

[Stripes]

They have one guy, maybe, now. At that rate, they'll have another just in time for Peko to be an RFA. And who knows what we'll have out of the bargain bin then.

I honestly think the defensive line could be fine if Peko alone lives up to the billing. Placing him next to one of the cheapos wouldn't be bad at all, IMO. Gotta wait and see, of course.

[HoosierCat]

I honestly think the defensive line could be fine if Peko alone lives up to the billing. Placing him next to one of the cheapos wouldn't be bad at all, IMO. Gotta wait and see, of course.

I like Peko but we need more than him. Thornton is what he is, and Sam and Myers are limited-use types. I still have my fingers crossed for a DT on day one this year -- probably in the second, Harrell would be sweet but he wont last -- but I'm not counting on it. If they pass on Branch I don't care if both his legs are fricking broken I'll be p*ssed.

[derekshank]

*yawn*

There is a line in a song I listened to in high school that said "You can lead a horse to water, you can even make him drink, but you can't change his point of view."

I guess If a fan desires to view every non-signing as the excessive frugality, and every single signing as more of the same nothing is going to change that. I'm happy with the direction the team is going. If someone else is unhappy... that's their burden to bear.

See ya folks. Wake me if this discussion ever returns to Michael Myers.

[Stripes]

I honestly think the defensive line could be fine if Peko alone lives up to the billing. Placing him next to one of the cheapos wouldn't be bad at all, IMO. Gotta wait and see, of course.

I like Peko but we need more than him. Thornton is what he is, and Sam and Myers are limited-use types. I still have my fingers crossed for a DT on day one this year -- probably in the second, Harrell would be sweet but he wont last -- but I'm not counting on it. If they pass on Branch I don't care if both his legs are fricking broken I'll be p*ssed.

If the line doesn't look overly improved with more Peko in 2007, it'll be hard to disagree. I don't want/expect a first day DT this year (unless Okoye falls for whatever reason), but if Peko's progress doesn't amount to overall progress on the line, I'll be on board that bandwagon next offseason.

[TheCinciBengal]

the dude is sorta an upgrade but at the same time he isn't. But i guess we'll see what he does for us this season.

[mjm47]

Another reason I like the Myers signing - tackles are just tough to pick - as many misses as hits.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft07/colu...&id=2844964

If a day one tackle is, more or less, a crap shoot, why not just bring in day twos and role-playing free agents? It seems like drafting a real difference-maker is as much luck as anything else.

[chrishcovga]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, there is no-one at the defensive tackle spot on our current roster

OTHER .. than Domata Peko that is worthy of a roster spot !

-Sam Adams is a shadow of his former self.

-John Thornton has never been consistent.

-Bryan Robinson was a very solid veteran player in the last millenium, when he was only a defensive end in Chicago.

I love what Marvin Lewis has done with this team overall, but he has yet to address the defensive line properly. - We have failed to draft from the elite talent on the defensive line when available. Peko was a find, but if he's not challenging for a starters spot this year, then something is wrong with him if he can't beat out 2 overpaid bums ahead of him.

- Shaun Smith, won't miss him.

----- If the Bengals are going to address the problem, it's going to be in the draft. The only way they're going to fix the problem is by drafting better players at the position.

- This requires doing things the Bengals don't normally do, and thats' move themselves around during the draft to either move up or down to get guys they know can play.

Marvin Lewis talks about drafting players that have an upside that aren't finished products already. But is he actually saying that the elite players in each draft coming out of college won't get better as pros????????

** where they're taught proper technique

- better strength and conditioning skills..

- better nutritional habits

etc. etc. etc...

- Marvin can show that Super Bowl ring around all he wants, but the REALITY, is when The Ravens won the Super Bowl they had a pro bowl playmaking defensive tackle in Sam Adams, and a Huge Big body next to him that kept Adams from consistent double teams in Tony Siragusa.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's the stat the Bengals really need to look at. Two of the top 5 defenses didn't even make the playoffs. The Colts won the Super Bowl and averaged giving up more than 22 points a game. The Difference is they played lights out in the Playoffs.... because they rode the talent and energy of their 2 best players in Bob Sanders and Dwight Freeney.

- What 2 defensive players like that do we currently have on our roster..??

In Marvins Defense..

- it should have been Pollack, Thurman, and Madieu Williams. - The Defense of 2005 could have won us a Super Bowl. We gave up yards, didn't play the run as well, but it was a squad of " playmakers ".

Ok, How do we fix it this year..??

1. SCORE MORE POINTS

* Get rid of the average players, and at least attempt to find a playmaker up the middle. ON the outside at linebacker, and teach Johnathan Joseph how to catch!

Oh yeah,

Draft this years playmakers, Nelson, Merriweather, Harrell, Beason, Hall, etc. etc..

- Or move up / trade away some picks and take Okoye, Anderson, or Calvin Johnson !

[NJ29]

We can all sit here and argue about the best way to build a team, but at the end of the day, the players have to do their jobs. Someone has to find a way to step up and overachieve in order for this team to be great. Peko looks like he will do that, now we need some linebackers and DBs to do that. Same goes for the receiver situation.

[jjakq27]

Here's the stat the Bengals really need to look at. Two of the top 5 defenses didn't even make the playoffs. The Colts won the Super Bowl and averaged giving up more than 22 points a game. The Difference is they played lights out in the Playoffs.... because they rode the talent and energy of their 2 best players in Bob Sanders and Dwight Freeney.

- What 2 defensive players like that do we currently have on our roster..??

In Marvins Defense..

- it should have been Pollack, Thurman, and Madieu Williams. - The Defense of 2005 could have won us a Super Bowl. We gave up yards, didn't play the run as well, but it was a squad of " playmakers ".

Ok, How do we fix it this year..??

1. SCORE MORE POINTS

* Get rid of the average players, and at least attempt to find a playmaker up the middle. ON the outside at linebacker, and teach Johnathan Joseph how to catch!

Oh yeah,

Draft this years playmakers, Nelson, Merriweather, Harrell, Beason, Hall, etc. etc..

- Or move up / trade away some picks and take Okoye, Anderson, or Calvin Johnson !

Excellent analysis. I think the Bengals have the blueprints for success right up i-74. Defensive minded coach inherits a good soon to be great offense. The Colts have a tremendous offense that puts fear in just about every team. Their defense is opportunistic but is built for playing from ahead. With a few playmakers on our defense I believe we could use the same formula.

I think Marvin and the rest of us need to forget about how the Ravens did it because their offense sucked. I mean Trent Dilfer was their QB.....We don't need our defense to win games for us, just keep us in them.