Bengals Cut Brian Simmons

[HairOnFire]

Free agency is almost a day old. Isn't it about time for Hoosier's annual failing grade for the Bengals?

[cincy9275]

thanks brian sad to see ya go good luck. how can we cut brian and keep pos like thornton or robinson. this is unbelievable. cut our best l/b and tender offers to crap like johnson and miller. other than odell which we can not count on. we have count them zero starters at l/b you can say landon and jentey are but the are not they are backup material. then the coaches stress character and professionalism is what we need. then turn around and cut the guy who had the most on the team. my faith in this staff is dwindling with every boneheaded move they make.

[HoosierCat]

The only real question behind this debate, IMO, is "how good a football team are the Cincinnati Bengals?" If they're a steaming pile of mediocrity or worse, then take a chance to push them foward. If they're a good team with a chance to be better than a good team, then leave them be.

On that central point, nobody will ever agree.

Well, I don't know about everybody, but I certainly won't. You have it backwards. A poor or even mediocre team has no real reason to be a big FA player; one or two players isnt likely to make a difference. That isn't the case here and now. They have a chance to be better, but that won't happen by standing still.

[Kirkendall]

Brooks can't stay on the field

If you mean, not dressing up the final two games of the season, then you're absolutely right. I would have just worded it as, "Brooks can't stay in stadium".

[DuffMan]

Maybe im getting too used to this...just setting myself up for disappointment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IqadSMQm5o

[Stripes]

The only real question behind this debate, IMO, is "how good a football team are the Cincinnati Bengals?" If they're a steaming pile of mediocrity or worse, then take a chance to push them foward. If they're a good team with a chance to be better than a good team, then leave them be.

On that central point, nobody will ever agree.

Well, I don't know about everybody, but I certainly won't. You have it backwards. A poor or even mediocre team has no real reason to be a big FA player; one or two players isnt likely to make a difference. That isn't the case here and now. They have a chance to be better, but that won't happen by standing still.

And that's where I'll never agree. As the young players gain experience, they'll improve. The offense isn't old enough for me to worry about the wait yet.

[HoosierCat]

And that's where I'll never agree. As the young players gain experience, they'll improve.

Of course our young players will improve (at least some of them, hopefully). But so will the Browns' young players. And the Steelers'. And the Ravens'. And on and on. You don't gain ground that way.

[Stripes]

And that's where I'll never agree. As the young players gain experience, they'll improve.

Of course our young players will improve (at least some of them, hopefully). But so will the Browns' young players. And the Steelers'. And the Ravens'. And on and on. You don't gain ground that way.

The Bengals are a younger team than the Ravens (and I believe the Steelers too, but I'm not certain there). I'd say they can gain ground simply by default.

[SkinneymulleT]

And that's where I'll never agree. As the young players gain experience, they'll improve.

Of course our young players will improve (at least some of them, hopefully). But so will the Browns' young players. And the Steelers'. And the Ravens'. And on and on. You don't gain ground that way.

Gotta disagree. Improvement and development of young men largely has to do with the coaching and conditioning environment that they are in. If you have better coaches and training staff who understand players strengths and weaknesses and develop schemes accordingly, are able to place them in a position to succeed they will improve and reach their potentional more so then those in a lesser system. If you think the squealer and ratbirds have a better or equal staff to ML and the boys, then your right. I dont think so and thus younger players will improve and be the foundation for years to come and should leave those turds in the toilet.

[HoosierCat]

Gotta disagree. Improvement and development of young men largely has to do with the coaching and conditioning environment that they are in. If you have better coaches and training staff who understand players strengths and weaknesses and develop schemes accordingly, are able to place them in a position to succeed they will improve and reach their potentional more so then those in a lesser system. If you think the squealer and ratbirds have a better or equal staff to ML and the boys, then your right. I dont think so and thus younger players will improve and be the foundation for years to come and should leave those turds in the toilet.

First, I don't see where the Bengals' staff is any better than most. Coaching is pretty even around the league. Occasionally, you get one that's obviously elite, like the current one in NE. Other times you get one that's obviosuly poor, like the one in Oakland last season, or the Browns under Butch, or the Bengals under, well, just about everyone in the Nineties. Certainly the Cowher-era Steelers staff was equal to or better than Marvins, same for Billick and his crew.

Second, if you really want to argue that Marvin and his staff are something special at developing young talent, then you'll have to show me where because I don't see it. Madieu regressed last year, as did O'Neal. Justin has had four years under the Marvin regime and isn't a tick better than he was to begin with. Neither Ratliff nor Greg Brooks have developed into anything. Pollack might have, but he never impressed me, he always looked lost. Odell's gap control was horrible from his first game to his last. Despite all the work we constantly hear about, Graham still struggles with kickoffs. Neithr Landon nor Caleb have been able to win a starting job except via injury. Geathers only broke out after the coaches stopped trying to turn him into a DT. No, sorry, I don't see where the Bengals have shown any special ability to coach up young players.

[SkinneymulleT]

How do you know "coaching is even around the league"? You must be an insider. It appears that this is not true. If it was, so many coaches would not lose thier job each year. Additionally, many coaches are successful-tony dungy, belli-check, cohwer, fisher, now retired dick vermeille, holmgren, parcells, ect. and those coaches who are not, norv turner, denny green, many other who have lost jobs or will do so. So again you appear to be wrong and just throw out unsupported statement to in effect prove you are lacking in knowledge. Additionally, many of these coaches develop talent from within, avioding paying high price FA and that is why they are successfull. Is this coincidence, acts of god or luck? I think not. Now you appear to think ML is a bum but call yourself a fan. ML did a wonderful job of develping talent with the ravens and squealers, and has done a good job here, but only time will tell. When he wins a super bowl, I sure youll be "#1 fan!" Now cowher is not the coach of the steelers but tomlin, romeo is coaching the browns and billick the ravens. Billick has developed nothing without ML, tomlin nothing thus far and romeo, poor romeo...so it would appear that we would have an advantage over division foes contrary to your original statement. Under ML, CP is an allstar, TJ, CJ, RUDY, Stieny, and the entire offense developed under him, but you think we only have a D. Now on D., mw has progressed nicely but has been battling injuries but that is ml's fault, geather 10+ sack oh that right, odell was only rookie so how could he have developed? but was still a stud!!!!! And gap control please, he may have over played some plays but he was a rookie and second round pick dummy so what more do you want? I like his aggresive play and sometimes intense player will do just that. Pollack was comming along as a pass rusher but got hurt again ml's fault.Oneil pro bowl!!!! Caleb did develop nicely as a role player but clearly understand the D better than many player out there. So although he is not perfect, ML has developed one of the best offenses in the league, and despite a number of injuries on D, I think the younger players such as ODELL AHMED GEATHERS SMITH PEKO MW JEANTY and the like are developing and will if they stay healthy, make probowls! Your nothing but a fairweather ignorant Hooooosier! (isnt that slang for hillbilly?)

[Stripes]

No need for the insults, Skinney. Hoosier has as much a right to an opinion as anyone (even if he's wrong. just kidding).

[SkinneymulleT]

No need for the insults, Skinney. Hoosier has as much a right to an opinion as anyone (even if he's wrong. just kidding).

Sorry, but the truth is the ultimate defense!

see http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=5911

Besides stating he is ignorant is not an insult just a fact based on his statment and he calls himself a hoosier. On the plus, he has been enlighten so i geuss he is no longer ignorant so i retract that statment.

[HoosierCat]

How do you know "coaching is even around the league"? You must be an insider. It appears that this is not true. If it was, so many coaches would not lose thier job each year.

The vast majority, however, do not. And may of those who do quickly end up back in the saddle someplace else -- Norv Turner, for example. The real dregs are flushed out quickly (Butch, Spurrier, etc.). If coaching were very uneven, if it were very difficult to find a good staff, you would expect to see the opposite: only a few teams with elite coaches and staffs and a lot struggling. But that isn't the case.

Additionally, many of these coaches develop talent from within, avioding paying high price FA and that is why they are successfull.

Many do. Many also work for organizations that take advantage of free agency and related avenues to build their teams. The two aren't mutually exclusive propositions.

Now you appear to think ML is a bum

I do? Well, all I can say is your telepathic abilities need work.

ML did a wonderful job of develping talent with the ravens, and has done a good job here, but only time will tell.

Well, has he done a good job, or is it "only time will tell"? Make up your mind.

Under ML, CP is an allstar, TJ, CJ, RUDY, Stieny, and the entire offense developed under him,

Most of the offense was already here when he arrived. His additions were Carson and Steinbach, and Steinbach's gone.

I think the younger players such as ODELL AHMED GEATHERS SMITH PEKO MW JEANTY and the like are developing and will if they stay healthy, make probowls! Your nothing but a fairweather ignorant Hooooosier! (isnt that slang for hillbilly?)

Well, while you are gazing into your crystal ball you might get tomorrow's winning lotto numbers, too.

[SkinneymulleT]

How do you know "coaching is even around the league"? You must be an insider. It appears that this is not true. If it was, so many coaches would not lose thier job each year.

The vast majority, however, do not. And may of those who do quickly end up back in the saddle someplace else -- Norv Turner, for example. The real dregs are flushed out quickly (Butch, Spurrier, etc.). If coaching were very uneven, if it were very difficult to find a good staff, you would expect to see the opposite: only a few teams with elite coaches and staffs and a lot struggling. But that isn't the case.

Additionally, many of these coaches develop talent from within, avioding paying high price FA and that is why they are successfull.

Many do. Many also work for organizations that take advantage of free agency and related avenues to build their teams. The two aren't mutually exclusive propositions.

Now you appear to think ML is a bum

I do? Well, all I can say is your telepathic abilities need work.

ML did a wonderful job of develping talent with the ravens, and has done a good job here, but only time will tell.

Well, has he done a good job, or is it "only time will tell"? Make up your mind.

Under ML, CP is an allstar, TJ, CJ, RUDY, Stieny, and the entire offense developed under him,

Most of the offense was already here when he arrived. His additions were Carson and Steinbach, and Steinbach's gone.

I think the younger players such as ODELL AHMED GEATHERS SMITH PEKO MW JEANTY and the like are developing and will if they stay healthy, make probowls! Your nothing but a fairweather ignorant Hooooosier! (isnt that slang for hillbilly?)

Well, while you are gazing into your crystal ball you might get tomorrow's winning lotto numbers, too.

Id like to respond in detail but your random cut and past job is basically nonsensical so i dont even know what your saying. Let me try. Coaches have contracts and must be given time to show what they can do and eventually will get fired if they do not perform so i dont know how your statment is supportive. It tends to show the opposite that there is disparity among the quality of coaches. For the most part, a teams that go FA spend more money for talent and does not develop within are not successfull due to salary cap constraints. Not that it is impossible just the odds are against it. Name one that is? The redskins? Giants? Vikings? Cardnals? I believe they have been the FA teams giving up draft picks for FA's and they all suck! Telepathic skills? I just read what you said "Marvin and his staff are something special at developing young talent, then you'll have to show me where because I don't see it." Maybe poor paraphrasing skills but not telepathy. Make my mind about what? Lets see i said "has done a good job here" Pretty clear in the present tense and do I know about the future? No again no esp telekenesis or what not, just alot of the newer players have not had time to develope (odell one year dummy) so i cant know how they have developed. The offense, we are not talking about drafting the players. TJ, CJ, CP, Levi, JJ, Rudy,CH and even Willie had not been been "developed" or said another way they were young and not stars or had not gone to Pro Bowls. A Fan would know that. So the "developed" under ML dummy. Now the young player you have no faith in i do have faith in ML to "develope them" Looking at my crystal ball and it says your mom will have problems with gap control!!!! Sorry i couldnt resist.

[Stripes]

[HoosierCat]

Coaches have contracts and must be given time to show what they can do and eventually will get fired if they do not perform so i dont know how your statment is supportive. It tends to show the opposite that there is disparity among the quality of coaches.

What does the fact coaches have contracts have to do with anything? The point is that most coaches are not fired each year; it's a minority of teams that change HCs every year. Furthermore, those changes tend to be concentrated among a group of traditionally troubled organizations (Arizona, Oakland, lately Cleveland, etc.) Again, if good coaching were hard to find, you would see a great deal of turnover and very little recycling, and that simply isn't the case. Changes occur on only a few teams, and coaches are commonly recyced (Turner, Parcells, Vermeil, Gibbs, Belichick, Dungy, Schottenheimer, etc.).

For the most part, a teams that go FA spend more money for talent and does not develop within are not successfull due to salary cap constraints.

Who is in cap trouble this year? No team, as far as I can tell. A few have little to spend, but no one has been forced into wholesale cuts to get under the cap. The last team that had to do that was Tennessee several years ago. Yet FA has continued, the deals have only gotten bigger...yet the cap has ceased to be an issue.

The redskins? Giants? Vikings? Cardnals? I believe they have been the FA teams giving up draft picks for FA's and they all suck!

Huh? The Cards havent given up any draft picks recently, though considering how poorly they draft they might have been better off doing so. The Giants traded some '05 picks but that was the first time they had done so since 1998. The Vikes have had 7 or more picks in every draft for the last 10 years, excpet for 2006. Only the redskins have given up a lot of picks lately -- and their problems have less to do with the players they've gotten in return than with the junk they actually selected with the remaining picks.

In fact, all these team seem to do pretty well with FAs. Plexico has been solid in NY, Brad Johnson did a good job for the Vikes, even good ol' Rackers did OK in AZ. FA isn't the source of these teams' problems.

Telepathic skills? I just read what you said "Marvin and his staff are something special at developing young talent, then you'll have to show me where because I don't see it." Maybe poor paraphrasing skills but not telepathy.

Ah. Well, let me make it clearer, then: just because Marvin & Co. are nothing special at developing players doesn't make Marvin a bum, any more than the fact you car isn't the fastest one on the planet makes it the slowest.

Lets see i said "has done a good job here" Pretty clear in the present tense and do I know about the future? No again no esp telekenesis or what not, just alot of the newer players have not had time to develope (odell one year dummy) so i cant know how they have developed. The offense, we are not talking about drafting the players. TJ, CJ, CP, Levi, JJ, Rudy,CH and even Willie had not been been "developed" or said another way they were young and not stars or had not gone to Pro Bowls. A Fan would know that. So the "developed" under ML dummy.

And you call me nonsensical? Is the above even English? Marvin developed Willie? Levi and Chad were starters before he came here. If Marvin did such a great job developing them, why didn't Justin Smith improve, too? How about John Thornton? What's Marvin developed him into? Geathers only got his 10 sacks after they stopped trying to develop him and let him do what comes naturally.

Like most staffs, Marvin & Co. have had some successes and some failures, and a lot of in-between. Like I said, nothing special. You seems to believe, based on no evidence, that they are among the elite. Fortunately, like Marvin, I see better than I hear.

[HairOnFire]

What's Marvin developed him into? Geathers only got his 10 sacks after they stopped trying to develop him and let him do what comes naturally.

Wow, so now Marvin doesn't even get credit for developing his own mid-round draft picks into starters?

[HoosierCat]

What's Marvin developed him into? Geathers only got his 10 sacks after they stopped trying to develop him and let him do what comes naturally.

Wow, so now Marvin doesn't even get credit for developing his own mid-round draft picks into starters?

Whether he's a starter remains to be seen. But the only "development" Marvin & Co. did was to stop trying to make him into something he wasn't. They get a nod from me for recognizing their mistake, but if they hadn't made it he might have exploded a year earlier.

[HairOnFire]

What's Marvin developed him into? Geathers only got his 10 sacks after they stopped trying to develop him and let him do what comes naturally.

Wow, so now Marvin doesn't even get credit for developing his own mid-round draft picks into starters?

Whether he's a starter remains to be seen. But the only "development" Marvin & Co. did was to stop trying to make him into something he wasn't. They get a nod from me for recognizing their mistake, but if they hadn't made it he might have exploded a year earlier.

Lewis may have made a mistake asking Geathers to add weight so that he could slide inside occasionally, but claiming Geathers hasn't been developed is ridiculous. On more than one occasion last season several of us noted the vast improvement in Geathers run defense. Plus, he now offers a far more complete set of pass rush moves. Last, his stamina has improved so much that he rarely misses more than a handful of snaps in games. Frankly, he no longer resembles the one-trick pony he was as a rookie and Lewis should not only get credit for that, but for developing a second day draft pick into one of the best yound DE's in the NFL.

Last, whether you recognize the fact or not Geathers has been a starter for two seasons with the second being an unqualified success.

[HoosierCat]

Lewis may have made a mistake asking Geathers to add weight so that he could slide inside occasionally,

May have?

but claiming Geathers hasn't been developed is ridiculous.

I didnt claim Geathers hadn't been developed, only that the key to his development was that the Bengals stopped screwing him up.

Last, whether you recognize the fact or not Geathers has been a starter for two seasons with the second being an unqualified success.

Geathers did not have a single start last season. Not one. Look it up if you don't believe me.

[SkinneymulleT]

Coaches have contracts and must be given time to show what they can do and eventually will get fired if they do not perform so i dont know how your statment is supportive. It tends to show the opposite that there is disparity among the quality of coaches.

What does the fact coaches have contracts have to do with anything? The point is that most coaches are not fired each year; it's a minority of teams that change HCs every year. Furthermore, those changes tend to be concentrated among a group of traditionally troubled organizations (Arizona, Oakland, lately Cleveland, etc.) Again, if good coaching were hard to find, you would see a great deal of turnover and very little recycling, and that simply isn't the case. Changes occur on only a few teams, and coaches are commonly recyced (Turner, Parcells, Vermeil, Gibbs, Belichick, Dungy, Schottenheimer, etc.).

For the most part, a teams that go FA spend more money for talent and does not develop within are not successfull due to salary cap constraints.

Who is in cap trouble this year? No team, as far as I can tell. A few have little to spend, but no one has been forced into wholesale cuts to get under the cap. The last team that had to do that was Tennessee several years ago. Yet FA has continued, the deals have only gotten bigger...yet the cap has ceased to be an issue.

The redskins? Giants? Vikings? Cardnals? I believe they have been the FA teams giving up draft picks for FA's and they all suck!

Huh? The Cards havent given up any draft picks recently, though considering how poorly they draft they might have been better off doing so. The Giants traded some '05 picks but that was the first time they had done so since 1998. The Vikes have had 7 or more picks in every draft for the last 10 years, excpet for 2006. Only the redskins have given up a lot of picks lately -- and their problems have less to do with the players they've gotten in return than with the junk they actually selected with the remaining picks.

In fact, all these team seem to do pretty well with FAs. Plexico has been solid in NY, Brad Johnson did a good job for the Vikes, even good ol' Rackers did OK in AZ. FA isn't the source of these teams' problems.

Telepathic skills? I just read what you said "Marvin and his staff are something special at developing young talent, then you'll have to show me where because I don't see it." Maybe poor paraphrasing skills but not telepathy.

Ah. Well, let me make it clearer, then: just because Marvin & Co. are nothing special at developing players doesn't make Marvin a bum, any more than the fact you car isn't the fastest one on the planet makes it the slowest.

Lets see i said "has done a good job here" Pretty clear in the present tense and do I know about the future? No again no esp telekenesis or what not, just alot of the newer players have not had time to develope (odell one year dummy) so i cant know how they have developed. The offense, we are not talking about drafting the players. TJ, CJ, CP, Levi, JJ, Rudy,CH and even Willie had not been been "developed" or said another way they were young and not stars or had not gone to Pro Bowls. A Fan would know that. So the "developed" under ML dummy.

And you call me nonsensical? Is the above even English? Marvin developed Willie? Levi and Chad were starters before he came here. If Marvin did such a great job developing them, why didn't Justin Smith improve, too? How about John Thornton? What's Marvin developed him into? Geathers only got his 10 sacks after they stopped trying to develop him and let him do what comes naturally.

Like most staffs, Marvin & Co. have had some successes and some failures, and a lot of in-between. Like I said, nothing special. You seems to believe, based on no evidence, that they are among the elite. Fortunately, like Marvin, I see better than I hear.

hahahhahhahahhaha! No its portugues dummy! Thats the best you got. The voice of hooseir reason. I dont know how many times ive read that comment on this board when someone has nothing to support thier reason or lack of. No one said cap trouble only it acts as a restraint. See Major league baseball. Let me follow this...not the giants, vikes except 2005 and 2006...hahahhahhaha! Im sure there are more teams than that and what about my you car? keep him out of this. You must have done well on the analogy section of the sat. HAHHAHH! You, like most ignorant people, attempt to distract from the original discussion by talking about nonsense. And oakland is traditionaly troubled? They were in the superbowl like 4 years ago!HAHAHHAHHAH! And being a starter is not a Pro-bowler. Development defined: act of improving by expanding or enlarging or refining. Sea even yous can be edumacated. HAHAHHAH You skipped the entire offense because you have no argument. I heard wise men say it is the fool who argues with the fool so I geuss that makes me a fool!!!!

[HairOnFire]

Geathers did not have a single start last season. Not one. Look it up if you don't believe me.

I'm not interested in having an argument over semantics right now. Suffice to say the we both know the act of starting is more of a function of down and distance, not a reflection of which player gets more snaps.

[HoosierCat]

hahahhahhahahhaha! No its portugues dummy! Thats the best you got. The voice of hooseir reason. I dont know how many times ive read that comment on this board when someone has nothing to support thier reason or lack of.

Portugues? I'll make the guess you meant Portugese. So maybe if I go to babelfish and run this through he translator it will make sense?

No one said cap trouble only it acts as a restraint.

Hmmm...let's see, why does the cap act as a restraint? Because you get into cap trouble if you abuse it? Yep, that would be it.

Let me follow this...not the giants, vikes except 2005 and 2006...hahahhahhaha! Im sure there are more teams than that

Yeah, there are 30 more NFL teams, last I checked. Your point?

And oakland is traditionaly troubled? They were in the superbowl like 4 years ago!HAHAHHAHHAH!

I think they've had 5 winning seasons in the last 20. That's hardly a model of success, is it?

And being a starter is not a Pro-bowler.

No, thats true, it isn't. Was there some point you were trying to make?

Development defined: act of improving by expanding or enlarging or refining. Sea even yous can be edumacated.

Maybe in Portugal.

You skipped the entire offense because you have no argument.

So Willie isn't part of the offense? Levi? Chad?

[Stripes]

Credit to Hrod for breaking this news first... For all those arguing over FA (myself included), feast your eyes on this:

CLEMENTS BLOWS OUT THE CURVE

Adam Schefter of NFL Network reports that the San Francisco 49ers have signed cornerback Nate Clements.

It's a mind-boggling eight-year, $80 million deal, with $22 million in guaranteed money, and it makes Clements the highest-paid defensive player in NFL history.

Clements was expected to be pursued by several teams. But he never got out of San Fran.

Dear God.