PFT article follow up

[HoosierCat]

The fact that Florio is occasionally legit ignores the fact that he chooses to not be legit whenever he feels it suits him.

PFT's much deserved poor reputation is a result of the way it deliberately chooses to do business. Or were you under the impression that respectable media sources use the word "TURD" as it's signature catch phrase? And on that point, I wrote Florio once and he explained to me that the site is deliberately provacative in the hopes that it will generate hits....which will bring advertisers....which apparently will pay the guys heating bills....which I couldn't care less about.

As for ESPN, if it is guilty of anything it's the habit of taking itself far too seriously....because no matter how shaky and poorly constructed the soapbox might be you'll find an ESPN personality attempting to climb atop it.

That said, PFT has positioned itself on the opposite end of the spectrum. It routinely offers up material that it openly admits is "probably untrue" but it's defenders claim that it can't be blamed for it's actions because the reader has been warned, right? After all, the site admits freely that many times it offers unfounded rumors and opinions from sources that aren't named. And when you get right down to it...that isn't all that different than the Weekly World News printing headlines about the face of Elvis being found on Mars.

Legitimacy and respect are two different things, and have nothing to do with whether you choose to be provocative or not. That particular tactic is used by many different media outlets, most famously by Fox News. Many people, among them myself, have no respect for Faux News, but that doesnt change the fact they're a legitimate news organization. If you dont believe me, you try getting a spot on the White House press corps.

As to the explanation Florio offered that you "couldn't care less about," well, thats how all media works. Get ratings, get advertisers, get money. Nothing new there.

And finally, yes, it is far different from the WWN. WWN is expressly produced as fiction; it's essentially a weekly comic book. An online equivalent would be something along the lines of The Onion. An argument could be made that PFT is the football version of the National Enquirer, but the NE is actually a newspaper, albeit one focused mostly on celebrity gossip and diet tips.

[membengal]

Keep legitimizing them

Sorry to bust your balloon, but whether you like it or not, Florio and PFT are already considered legitimate. His site has had many scoops, and is widely read. The league offices routinely respond to questions he asks them. Agents and players and even coaches talk to Florio. His stories are often picked up (sometimes with attribution, sometimes without) by mainstream media. Florio is a regular guest on many local sports radio shows. In fact, at one point his services were bought by ESPN! They started their lame ""insider" thing by buying his old nfltalk site; he subsequently quit and re-established an independent site under the current banner.

Sayiing Florio isn't legit, or is in any way comparable to the WWN is just silly.

Oh, and maybe this is just me, anything less than 100% accurate is bulls**t.

That's an interesting attitude. Tell me, when you hear the 6 o'clock news say there is a tornado warning, do you ignore it? After all, at some point, usually every day, every news outlet screws up. That's why newspapers have daily corrections columns, after all. So, under your theory, since the local news often mis-reports things, it must be BS, right? So...tornado warning...ahh, who cares, eh?

What a bizarre tact to take, hoosier. The PFT equivalent of a local news forecast would be to take a day, with 80 degrees, a nice light southern wind, in the middle of July, and say as a teaser for the evening news that "it COULD snow tonight". Then, when the low dips down to a nice comfortable 65, with clear skies, explain the next day, "hey, we only said it COULD snow, not that it would".

he isn't a news outlet, he isn't legit, he is a muckraker of the lowest common denominator, throwing bombs drudge-like in the hopes of occasionally getting something right. Frankly, the level of respect that some of you accord that kind of bulls**t is baffling.

Look, it's easy, I can do a Florio too:

1. We heard that Mike Vick might have aids, from a super secret source with the CDC (we didn't say he does, just that he might, since he has herpes, maybe we're right, who cares, we'll just throw it out there!)

2. We hear that Rich Braham may have to have his leg amputated. Our secret insider says that the Bengals are being less than forthcoming about his "bone bruise" and that nothing short of a prosthetic device is in his future.

3. A secret source from CBS has contacted us, and tells us that Terry Bradshaw is really a post-operative transvestite, and that he was actually the first true female to ever play in the NFL.

[HoosierCat]

What a bizarre tact to take, hoosier.

No, the bizarre tack to take is assuming that anything that isn't 100% right is therefore BS. Carson Palmer doesn't have a 100% completion percentage. Is he a BS QB?

he isn't a news outlet, he isn't legit,

Of course he is. Didn't the MSM just spend two days on the Palmer's arm story? Heck, several sportsbooks took the game off the board until Palmer said he would play. How many would halt betting if membengal.com said carson was hurt?

Like boomer said, you're jut one of those who don't like him. Me, I think Bill O'Rielly's an idiot and Fox News is a joke, but they are still legit.

he is a muckraker of the lowest common denominator, throwing bombs drudge-like in the hopes of occasionally getting something right.

Occasionally? Id say that roughly 8 out of 10 items like this Palmer one turn out to have something to them -- as, in fact, this one did. More? When he's wrong, he typically fesses up.

Look, it's easy, I can do a Florio too:

1. We heard that Mike Vick might have aids, from a super secret source with the CDC (we didn't say he does, just that he might, since he has herpes, maybe we're right, who cares, we'll just throw it out there!)

2. We hear that Rich Braham may have to have his leg amputated. Our secret insider says that the Bengals are being less than forthcoming about his "bone bruise" and that nothing short of a prosthetic device is in his future.

3. A secret source from CBS has contacted us, and tells us that Terry Bradshaw is really a post-operative transvestite, and that he was actually the first true female to ever play in the NFL.

And now the hater comes out. Aside from his annual April Fools posts, which are actually far more creative than these, Florio rarely makes anything close to batsh*t crazy claims like these.

Frankly, I think there's more than a little Florio-envy going on around here. Ater all, here we are, spending time posting our hearts out on a message board, some of us even writing stories for the site, and the best we can get is the occasional e-mail answer from Hobson. Meanwhile, this Florio guy actually worked to develop a network of league contacts, built a successful sports site that was bought by ESPN, went back to being an indy and built the site again, and now has become a sports media figure that coaches, players, agents, and the league all pay attention to. But no, he's not legit.

[membengal]

Why are you conflating what I expect from a "news and information/rumor" site in terms of accuracy in reporting (in a thread where a discussion of what we expect from the media is at hand), with Carson Palmer's completion rate? Talk about apples and koalas in terms of difference. You are smarter than that.

Jealous of Florio? f**k no. Expect him to be a little more responsible in what he does? I guess I would hope so. His e-mail response to HoF was very illuminating. When you are driven solely by the need to muck rakes and draw eyeballs, it is far from shocking that you are seen so very very lowly by, well, at least me. If you are fine with that style, swell, but the need to swallow hook line and sinker every stinkbomb he throws remains baffling...

By the way, I consider reporting that Palmer has a torn rotator cuff as bats**t crazy. Same thing with reporting that Johnson punched a coach. But, hey, why be accurate when bats**t crazy draws eyeballs???

The news media spent two days on this, in part because he mucked rakes. It turns out he was probable, and spent the day joking about it today. So, why the heat? Well, because that guy made something up.

If there were a membengal.com, I wouldn't engage in that kind of stuff. In fact, on the moderatly successful site that I have been active on as a writer for four years, we consciously don't engage in that kind of stuff. We've had opportunities to, but have chosen not to. Are we less successful for it? Probably, but I can sleep at night too.

I am no fan of O'Reilly and Faux either, and, will go one step further than you, they, like Florio, based on their actions, are not legit.

[HoosierCat]

Why are you conflating what I expect from a "news and information/rumor" site in terms of accuracy in reporting (in a thread where a discussion of what we expect from the media is at hand), with Carson Palmer's completion rate? Talk about apples and koalas in terms of difference. You are smarter than that.

So, usually, are you. The point is that 100% is a goal, in any endevour. To assume that a web site, or a quarterback, are worthless just because they aren't 100% accurate is foolish. If you got a 99% on a spelling test in grade school, is that BS because it isn't 100%? If a treatment for cancer has a 70% success rate, is it BS?

Jealous of Florio? f**k no. Expect him to be a little more responsible in what he does? I guess I would hope so. His e-mail response to HoF was very illuminating. When you are driven solely by the need to muck rakes and draw eyeballs, it is far from shocking that you are seen so very very lowly by, well, at least me.

Not to rehash a discussion I had with RBB on the current events board, but being "driven solely by the need to muck rakes and draw eyeballs" is how the entire media, mainstream and otherwise, works. That's why everything you see today is slanted; it's liberal, or conservative, or outrageous, or hip, or intellectual. Its targeted at men. Or women. Or kids. Or this or that age group. Or people who live here, or there. It's all about providing something that draws enough eyeballs so that you can make a buck. If all you do is produce boring crap no one watches or reads, you don't stay in business long (unless you're PBS, in which case you make up for it by spending a few weeks every year begging people to send you money).

If you are fine with that style, swell, but the need to swallow hook line and sinker every stinkbomb he throws remains baffling...

I don't. But I've learned from hard experience that all too many of his "stinkbombs" turn out to be true, and even the ones that are off are rarely completely false. You raise the "whole fight in the locker room" report. We don't now, and probably never will, know exactly what happened -- but clearly something did. Florio put the story out there, the MSM followed it up, and as it turned out the Bengals were forced to say, yeah, some things got a little rowdy at halftime.

If there were a membengal.com, I wouldn't engage in that kind of stuff. In fact, on the moderatly successful site that I have been active on as a writer for four years, we consciously don't engage in that kind of stuff. We've had opportunities to, but have chosen not to. Are we less successful for it? Probably, but I can sleep at night too.

There you go. You want to be a success in the media business, you have to take some chances. Otherwise, yep, you may sleep better, but you wont be sleeping on any silk sheets, either.

I am no fan of O'Reilly and Faux either, and, will go one step further than you, they, like Florio, based on their actions, are not legit.

I'm simply not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Bottom line is they can get press passes and we can't. That (among other things) makes them legit. Respectable, as I pointed out to Hair, is another thing entirely.

[membengal]

Actually, I can, and have, gotten press passes. Perhaps I feel strongly about this because I am more than passingly familiar with the temptations to do what he does, and have taken a different path.

Of course drawing eyeballs is the goal. But HOW you do it and what you engage in to do it, well, that matters.

Florio could have said "Palmer got beat to holy hell Monday night, and is hurting. The Bengals are concerned about his shoulder and are running tests".

That would have been newsworthy, if he were first, it would have even been a scoop. Quality even. But did he stop there? No. Of course not, because that is not who Florio is, sensationalism at the expense of anything approaching responsibility is.

Btw, a blog that breaks news and does so without resorting to the depths like Florio does? How about deadspin? If there is a site I am jealous of, given the time I have spent in this area of the new media frontier, it's them. But they do it better and are succesful as hell. All without wallowing in the slime. Florio wallows in the slime. I hold him in the deepest of contempt because of it...

Re my Faux and Reilly mention, they, like Florio, make stuff up. Not a fan of that style of "journalism", and the fact that they have done so, and will do so again, makes them illegitimate in my eyes. Always will.

[HairOnFire]

Frankly, I think there's more than a little Florio-envy going on around here. Ater all, here we are, spending time posting our hearts out on a message board, some of us even writing stories for the site, and the best we can get is the occasional e-mail answer from Hobson. Meanwhile, this Florio guy actually worked to develop a network of league contacts, built a successful sports site that was bought by ESPN, went back to being an indy and built the site again, and now has become a sports media figure that coaches, players, agents, and the league all pay attention to. But no, he's not legit.

True story. PFT used to accept rumors sent to them from Average Joes like you and I. And for all I know they still do. Regardless, a fellow poster that Hoosier and I were both familiar with, BengalFreak, once claimed to have made up a harmless rumor about the Bengals that he passed along to Florio. For the life of me I can't remember what story he made up, it was several years ago, but I remember that he claimed he simply wanted to see if Florio would put it on his site. Long story short, the nugget appeared the next day...attributed to an unnamed source.

Again, it's a rumor site, and I guess if you're jealous of professional writers all you have to do to get published is pass along a nugget to PFT. Who knows, maybe it's something you just made up? Or maybe you've got an inside source...like the guy who mops the floors at Paul Brown Stadium. Or maybe you can do better than that. Regardless, send it along to Florio and there's a good chance your words will be spread across cyberspace. Because Mike Florio doesn't pay lip service to the first rule of journalism. That being, don't publish anything until you can find a second source.

Oh, and never bother trying to confirm anything....because that takes too much time.

[bengal4life]

PFT sucks Donkey Penis.

[Bengalhead]

Sayiing Florio isn't legit, or is in any way comparable to the WWN is just silly.

The fact that Florio is occasionally legit ignores the fact that he chooses to not be legit whenever he feels it suits him.

PFT's much deserved poor reputation is a result of the way it deliberately chooses to do business. Or were you under the impression that respectable media sources use the word "TURD" as it's signature catch phrase? And on that point, I wrote Florio once and he explained to me that the site is deliberately provacative in the hopes that it will generate hits....which will bring advertisers....which apparently will pay the guys heating bills....which I couldn't care less about.

As for ESPN, if it is guilty of anything it's the habit of taking itself far too seriously....because no matter how shaky and poorly constructed the soapbox might be you'll find an ESPN personality attempting to climb atop it.

That said, PFT has positioned itself on the opposite end of the spectrum. It routinely offers up material that it openly admits is "probably untrue" but it's defenders claim that it can't be blamed for it's actions because the reader has been warned, right? After all, the site admits freely that many times it offers unfounded rumors and opinions from sources that aren't named. And when you get right down to it...that isn't all that different than the Weekly World News printing headlines about the face of Elvis being found on Mars.

Hair, you're right on regarding PFT. That's an interesting, albeit not surprising tidbit about Florio

[TJJackson]

PFT sucks Donkey Penis.

...as does any poster who would pass along their crap as fact, even implicitly by not labeling such a thread "RUMOR" or "INNUENDO" or "THIS IS A MADE-UP STORY" in the title of the post. Or then go on to defend such crapola.

Fact of the matter is, in regards to the partial truths, that even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes.

[bengalboomer7]

PFT sucks Donkey Penis.

...as does any poster who would pass along their crap as fact, even implicitly by not labeling such a thread "RUMOR" or "INNUENDO" or "THIS IS A MADE-UP STORY" in the title of the post. Or then go on to defend such crapola.

Fact of the matter is, in regards to the partial truths, that even a blind squirrel gets a nut sometimes.

Ok, now I enjoy these message boards very much. I enjoy arguing, debating, and generally talking football with like minds every day. Sometimes I agree with people, sometimes i don't. That's one thing, but to blindly close your ears to an argument, plugging your ears like a three year old screaming "I'm not listening" is just a tad childish.

i am also not the admin of this site. If you would like to make up rules, pass them along to the admin, or open up your own damn site and be gone. I'll argue all day, most of the time in good fun, but what i won't do is listen to someone, ANYONE, personally attack another person in the manner in which you just did. I'm not asking you, I'm telling you to cut that s**t out. If you'd like to continue with the debate, post your feelings and make counterarguments like membengal has. If that's not want you want to do, then f**k off <_<

Now back to your previously civilized conversation.

Neither Hoosier, or myself, has claimed this site to ge the ALMIGHTY GOD. I'm sure he embellishes things sometimes, and I'm sure sometimes he's wrong. I'm also sure he'd tell you that going in. So, let's review the original post from PFT and check it out

A reader tipped us off on Tuesday to the possibility that Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer emerged from Monday night's loss to the Colts with an injury. Per the tipster, Palmer has a shoulder injury, possibly a torn rotator cuff.

We've poked around a bit via our network of sources, and we've concluded that there's something to this one. It's our understanding that Palmer is undergoing tests on the shoulder today.

It's the last thing the 8-6 Bengals need as they prepare to face the 8-6 Broncos on Sunday in Denver. The winner will be in great shape for a playoff spot; the loser will be battling with the likes of the Jaguars and the Steelers and the Jets and the Chiefs and the Titans and the Bills (the Bills?) for the six seed.

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1. He state's Carson Palmer was injured during the Monday night game. Most of us watched it, saw his shoulder problem, and it was even reoported at halftime, by some MSM, namely ESPN.

2. Palmer underwent tests on his shoulder, which was confirmed by our own beloved Bengals.

3. he states, per the tipster(not himself, could be a bengals employee, could be HOF himself) that it is POSSIBLEY a torn rotator cuff. He doesn't state it as fact, he goes on to say he checked it out, and based on the fact that Carson had medical tests(maybe even an MRI) he goes on to say that maybe their's something to it. Doesn't proclaim it as fact, just says "there's could be something to this"

In the immortal words of meatloaf, two outta three ain't bad.

Oh, and BTW, he has a new post up stating Carson should be OK

[TJJackson]

I wrote this carefully to ensure is not a personal attack.

I can see rumor and innuendo posted as if it were pure and simple fact, and even supported as if it were fact by a random member here, but I would generally expect better of someone with an official standing here, such as an admin or moderator. I say this without pointing out any one admin or moderator or any other such official title. People come here for info, and they see a title by a persons name, and that conveys a sense of "ok, this guy is respected and important" giving what they say, write, and support greater credence.

My main point is that "information" from such sources should be labeled with a warning - this is not dissimilar to a recent interview in which Marvin told an interviewer to "consider the source" when he dismissed questions regarding the rotator cuff injury rumors.

[HairOnFire]

POSTED 9:06 a.m. EST; LAST UPDATED 10:00 a.m. EST, December 22, 2006

TESTS NEGATIVE ON PALMER'S SHOULDER

A league source tells us that the recent tests on the shoulder of Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer were negative. Which is positive.

But the source also tells us that there's still a feeling that "something is amiss," and we're still trying to track down more information.

Meanwhile, Palmer himself said Thursday on The Dan Patrick Show that the shoulder is fine, and the host, Señor Patrick, mentioned this here site at least seven times in teasing the Palmer interview.

And, as it turns out, our report created quite a stir. When we arrived in Columbus on Thursday night we saw that the site was mentioned in the local paper (and several others this week), and wagering on Sunday's Bengals-Broncos game temporarily was suspended based on the news that Palmer might have a serious injury.

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Let's walk through it.

An unnamed league source claims unspecified tests on Carson Palmer's shoulder were negative. (The earlier rumor wasn't true, was it?)

The same unnamed source stills insists that "something is amiss." (The Bengals claimed Palmer needed a day to rest his shoulder. Palmer insists his shoulder is fine. The Bengals medical staff has stated point blank that there is no structural damage or injury. Added together these reports completely discount the rumor, However, based upon absolutely nothing PFT continues to milk the discounted rumor for attention.)

PFT mentions the fact that it's site was mentioned 7 times on the Dan Patrick Show. (Completely ignoring the fact that each time it was mentioned was when the player in question discounted the very rumor that gave PFT it's free publicity.)

PFT brags that it's report created quite a stir. (I'm suddenly reminded that it's against the law to scream "FIRE!!!!" in a crowded theatre if there isn't a fire.)

[Spor_tees]

The Message Board is on FIRE! Everybody run for your life! FIRE!!

Of coarse I mean doing quite well in saying that is on fire. Or for my southern brothers, En Fuego!

[HairOnFire]

For starters, we've never reported that Palmer has a torn rotator cuff. We only reported that he has a shoulder injury, and that it's possibly a torn rotator cuff. We also reported that he underwent tests on the shoulder on Wednesday.

The team hasn't acknowledged that Palmer underwent tests. But, surely, if Palmer's shoulder is bothering him enough to miss part of practice, the team has done something to either find out what the problem is, or rule out what it isn't.

And let's not forget the reality that teams routinely lie, cheat, and/or steal when it comes to injuries, especially to quarterbacks.

The above was part of yesterdays PFT's update. Again, let's walk through it.

PFT begins by denying it reported Palmer had torn his rotator cuff, apparently hoping that the reader is so stupid that he fails to realize who the source of that rumor was. PFT then repeats that Palmer underwent tests that it doesn't bother identifying, hoping the reader isn't familiar with the medical practice known as "rule-outs". In short, rule-outs are tests that are conducted even when there is no evidence whatsoever that points to the type of injury the test is designed to find. It's simply an example of a medical staff being cautious and painstakingly thorough. Sadly, PFT is using a practice of good medicine as something that it can milk for publicity.

Moving on, PFT then attempts to deflect attention from the fact that it's rumor was found to be completely bogus by pointing to the fact that NFL teams are sometimes dishonest about a players possible injury. In other words, since some NFL franchises have been known to lie from time to time there's no reason to trust any NFL team at anytime. Instead, trust PFT when they tell you that Palmer might have a torn rotator cuff, and then trust them even more when they later insist that they didn't say anything of the sort.

[TJJackson]

Right.

This is an excellent example of why posts of material from this source should carry a warning label

They're not out to dispense football info, they are out to get hits on their website to earn advertising dollars, and will write almost anything to get that attention.

[HairOnFire]

Right.

This is an excellent example of why posts of material from this source should carry a warning label

They're not out to dispense football info, they are out to get hits on their website to earn advertising dollars, and will write almost anything to get that attention.

If you check out the PFT website today you'll find on their rumor page an advertisment for Sprint, the official telecommunications provider of ProFootballTalk. There's also an endorsement for phones, and a link provided so that you can make you purchase without leaving your house. Had I looked further I'm sure i would have found other advertisements buried within the content page. Obviously, Mike Florio's home heating strategy is paying off...which is fine to a point.

However, when you fabricate or embellish empty rumor about a players health just to increase traffic on your website, well....you have to wonder if Carson Palmer shouldn't be given a share of the advertising revenue that Florio pockets. After all, it's not that different than when an advertisment uses a players likeness without his permission. Because without the mention of Carson Palmer's name, and the phantom rotator cuff injury, there's no real story to report, and no mention of PFT on the Dan Patrick Show. And the mention of the possible injury to the rotator cuff is the critical thing that PFT had to mention in their story, even though they knew from the start that the information probably wasn't credible.

Last, remember the snippet from unanmed league sources that claimed on PFT that "something is still amiss." Well, John Clayton just reported that Carson Palmer responded so well to his day of rest that the Bengals are considering removing his name from their injury list.

[TJJackson]

Well put.

It is stuff like this that makes me wonder why anyone here, particular admin/mods (members with rights and/or responsibilities here greater than the typical posting member) would rise to the defense of such a website/"news" source

[oldschooler]

Mike Florio is a Stealers fan who likes to bash and lie about my team.

What`s to like ?

I liken him to a weather man that instead of saying it`s going to rain, says there is

going to be a Tornado, or instead of a tropical storm is coming, it`s a catergory 5 hurricane.

He takes something that "might" have a shred of truth to it, and embellishes it to the point of ridiculousness.

It is well known that he used to take an e-mail from anyone and post it as a rumor if he thinks it will

help him be a "good business man". I don`t like his style and I don`t need his "info".

I NEVER get info from his site, and I`m never at a shortage for good credible info.