A common thread: no playmakers on D/real reason...Marvin's D

[Kinnebrewski]

Question to the board: (and I'll make my suggestions...)

Why do the Bengals, year after year after year, lack enough defensive playmakers??? Doesn't matter whether we're talking about the Dave Shula, Bruce Coslet, Dick LeBeau, or Marvin Lewis regimes, it's always the same ol' SH*T here. We don't seem to have a problem getting talented offensive skill players---- but why can't we get a damned true pass rusher or a bona-fide run-stuffing D lineman???

Moreover, when do Mike Brown and Marvin see the writing on the wall and realize this is not something that will ever to be corrected unless something drastic is done? I remember Lewis saying in training camp that he felt they had enough defensive talent already on board to build with. Baloney. Even if Pollack and Thurman were in the mix, this defensive squad still would not have enough consistent tacklers, let alone guys who can make big plays at opportune times.

All I can think of in the end is Mike Brown. IMHO the Bengals fate rests on whether he is willing to buck up, put some real money down on the table and get some primo defensive talent in here ASAP. We simply can't wait on the draft and player development to bring the defense up to snuff. From where I'm standing we don't have that luxury. This team is not rebuilding---- with the core of Carson, the Johnsons, TJ, the O-line (which I think will get sorted out), offensively the timeframe is next year, maximum 2008 for this team. If we go beyond 2 years more than likely a few players from offense will be gone and it just won't be the same.

And that's what makes this season all the more painful.

So Marvin Lewis speaks to the press as if he genuinely believes the Bengals can cultivate their own talent defensively but what I really wonder is if he's just touting the party line, having already accepted that MB is a cheap motherf*cker and won't spend any real dough on free agents. Sam Adams was a typical Bengals free agent acquisition.....someone clearly past their prime, just here to wait out 2 years and collect paychecks for mediocre play. Think Clyde Simmons, Richmond Webb, et al.

[walzav29]

To think that losing Odell and Pollack meant nothing is crazy. They were play makers and it is obvious that they are missed. Pollack really didn't do anything, but he showed flashes and although Odell would play out of position from time to time, but he made big plays. Agreed though. There are no play making maniacs on defense.

[Bengalhead]

Question to the board: (and I'll make my suggestions...)

Why do the Bengals, year after year after year, lack enough defensive playmakers??? Doesn't matter whether we're talking about the Dave Shula, Bruce Coslet, Dick LeBeau, or Marvin Lewis regimes, it's always the same ol' SH*T here. We don't seem to have a problem getting talented offensive skill players---- but why can't we get a damned true pass rusher or a bona-fide run-stuffing D lineman???

Moreover, when do Mike Brown and Marvin see the writing on the wall and realize this is not something that will ever to be corrected unless something drastic is done? I remember Lewis saying in training camp that he felt they had enough defensive talent already on board to build with. Baloney. Even if Pollack and Thurman were in the mix, this defensive squad still would not have enough consistent tacklers, let alone guys who can make big plays at opportune times.

All I can think of in the end is Mike Brown. IMHO the Bengals fate rests on whether he is willing to buck up, put some real money down on the table and get some primo defensive talent in here ASAP. We simply can't wait on the draft and player development to bring the defense up to snuff. From where I'm standing we don't have that luxury. This team is not rebuilding---- with the core of Carson, the Johnsons, TJ, the O-line (which I think will get sorted out), offensively the timeframe is next year, maximum 2008 for this team. If we go beyond 2 years more than likely a few players from offense will be gone and it just won't be the same.

And that's what makes this season all the more painful.

So Marvin Lewis speaks to the press as if he genuinely believes the Bengals can cultivate their own talent defensively but what I really wonder is if he's just touting the party line, having already accepted that MB is a cheap motherf*cker and won't spend any real dough on free agents. Sam Adams was a typical Bengals free agent acquisition.....someone clearly past their prime, just here to wait out 2 years and collect paychecks for mediocre play. Think Clyde Simmons, Richmond Webb, et al.

Oh for the love of God. Here we go again with the Mike Brown stuff again. Can we please deal with a loss without automatically saying Mike Brown doesn't spend enough money??? The Bengals are up against the salary cap so how do you expect to get a high priced free agent to come in here? STOP saying that MB needs to start spending money. PLEASE! I'm so tired of this same lame a$$ excuse for the Bengals losing. Now, having vented a bit, I agree that the defense is VERY average. I have been saying it all this year and all through last year as well. When this team doesn't get turnovers, it simply does not stop anyone. That fact is what has kept, and will continue to keep this team from the elite levels until it is fixed. How do you fix it? That's a good question. Yes, lets make smart signings in FA for defense - but don't think for a minute that bringing in some big name/high dollar FA is going to fix the ho hum defense. It's going to take mulitple players who can stop the run AND get to the QB.

[membengal]

No playmakers on D, a continuing myth (gosh, did the Bengals lose this weekend? I can't tell from the even-handed responses and threads on this board)

Deltha O'Neal has defined playmaker since coming to this team, and the Pro Bowl apeparance for him was no joke. Madieu Williams does nothing but make plays. And, right now, there are two ends (despite the slander tossed Justin Smith's way on this board) who are also "playmakers"---Smith and Geathers (who is getting better all the time). That's four I am comfortable with on defense. Tell you what, in three starts, Ahmad Brooks has all the earmarks of "playmaker". That's five.

So, five off the top of my head, depending on what your definition of the nebulous term "playmaker" is.

High dollar free agent? Who would that be, exactly? Impact free agents on defense are few and far between. How is John Abraham working out in Atlanta? Oh, that's right, he's only played 31 downs this year due to injury. Is Brian Urlacher going to be available anytime soon? No? What about other impact guys? What? Teams either lock them up or franchise them? Really? But...But... isn't real life NFL just like Madden? It's not?

Shocking.

As for the notion that this season so far is "painful", a serious question, just what the f**k were your expectations? Carson Palmer coming off a devastating knee injury and a schedule that could only be described as brutal---not exactly a recipe for unbridled optimism. Plenty of observers, both on this board and in the media noted the Bengals could be better than last year and not win as many games as 2005. A bunch in here, me included, thought 10 wins would be about right for this team, give or take one. It's a tough schedule, but this is a tough team. They are a few plays away from 6-1. They are a few plays away from 2-5. Such is life in the NFL in general. So, pardon me for being somewhat pleased, in light of all the injuries they have sustained, and Palmer's uncertainty to start the year and his lack of practice all off-season, and in light of their schedule, for being 4-3 at this point with a chance to get to 5-3 and tied for first in the division and a 3-0 division record at the halfway point. Not a bad opportunity. Hopefully they can take advantage of it. If they can't, hopefully it rights itself the next week. No reason with this team it can't.

[HoosierCat]

Why do the Bengals, year after year after year, lack enough defensive playmakers???

Historically, they have a history of favoring the offense over the defense in the draft, and the Bengals' standard approach to FA doesnt involve bringing in big-ticket players. That said, draft priorities have shifted in the past couple of years, which along with some shrewd FA moves, have brought an influx of talent. James may be at the end of his rope but he has been a valuable addition. Deltha was a steal. Madieu and Joseph round out a very good secondary.

They also drafted Odell and Pollack, who ought to have been the foundation of an elite LB corps. That plan appears to have blown up in their faces, however, and there's little that can be done about it now except hope for Brooks to get real good real fast. Along with Jeanty's foot injury and now Simmons' stinger, the train wreck that is the LB position is probably the biggest reason our D has struggled.

On the line, I dont know what more people can want out of Justin and Jumpy Jr., both of whom are having career years. Peko looks like a keeper, but needs time. Shaun Smith is solid. Sam Adams, however, is as I feared a waste of money, and B-rob's encouraging performance at DE early has tailed off. Another injury, Frostee Rucker's, has robbed us of a possible upgrade here.

Bottom line: give the team its LBs back and a difference-maker at DT and this D suddenly gets a whole lot better.

[101Airborne]

I mostly agree with Mem and Hoosier. We might get lucky and catch some solid players from free agency, but I wouldn't count on it. It seems to me that it took a few years to get the offense together, so why don't we all just sit back and breathe a sigh of relief that we aren't 3-13 with a hopeless string of years to come? Let's give the organization time to build a defense that will compliment this offense and then we can go win us some Super Bowls. To say that we have no playmakers is to totally ignore our league leading turnover rate last year. While that does not a defense make, it certainly does a play make.

[agreen_112]

No playmakers on D is a direct result of our lack of scouts, which can be blamed on MB. We have some of the worst defensive scouts in the league. Look at the NY Giants. They alway draft good defensive players, exspecially d linemnan. Osi Unimoria (can't spell) is a monster. He's in like his second or third year (14 sacks last year) and just got hurt, so his backup (a rookie) fills in and he's a monster getting sacks too.

I though Madiue and Ratliff were great picks at the time, we all know Ratliff was a bust and Madiue is nice for run support but his coverage abilities aren't that great.

Give it another year or two and we'll get a good D together. Talk about playmakers, wait until you see Odell and Brooks together on the same field, WOW!

[Tasher]

That was the FIRST games in a string of 25 that the Bengals have NOT taken the ball away (since 2004 vs Pats).

This team led the NFL in takeaways by a huge margin last year and is still in the top tier of takeaways this year.

We are facing teams with a collective winning pct of over .580. GOOD teams are not going to let you do those things to them and are not going to make the mistakes, let alone the frequency of mistakes that lead to those kind of takeaway numbers. Just look at how many times WE turn the ball over to the other side. We do not make very many mistakes, either.

Our defense has been playing reasonably well considering the offenses we have been going against. Look at what NE did to Minny last night. Until the 4th when we handed them the ball in our red zone, it was a one score game. TB scored 14 points, Carolina scored 14 points.

Against this schedule there is no breathing room and it will take time for everything to come together, especially considering the injuries, suspensions and getting Carson back into top form.

Marvin said it best yesterday: "At the END of the year we will be right where we NEED to be."

We are playing for FIRST PLACE in the AFC North!

And I will say it again: 9-7 will win this division.

[walzav29]

I'm a little surprised that everyone has forgotten our 15 years of misery. We have the most talent in the division and are 4-3 with win's

@KC

@Pitt

Carolina

They seem off, but to start the Mike Brown talk again is pointless.

[Bengalhead]

It's a tough schedule, but this is a tough team. They are a few plays away from 6-1. They are a few plays away from 2-5. Such is life in the NFL in general. So, pardon me for being somewhat pleased, in light of all the injuries they have sustained, and Palmer's uncertainty to start the year and his lack of practice all off-season, and in light of their schedule, for being 4-3 at this point with a chance to get to 5-3 and tied for first in the division and a 3-0 division record at the halfway point. Not a bad opportunity. Hopefully they can take advantage of it. If they can't, hopefully it rights itself the next week. No reason with this team it can't.

Very well put. I couldn't agree more. In the NFL, it always comes down to a few plays each game that makes the difference. This team could just as easily be 6-1 as it could be 2-5. The teams that win the most are those that can make those precious few game-changing plays that always occur, occur in their favor.

[HairOnFire]

It's hard to take a thread entitled "No playmakers on D" very seriously when this teams habit of forcing turnovers routinely and consistently ranks amongst the very best in the NFL.

And I wouldn't discount the injuries so quickly. The teams designated pass rusher is currently wearing metal headgear while attempting to beat kids at video games....he may never play football again, and I'll hazard a guess that the small crowd of options who were once described as our starting SS have been injured more often than not for three or four seasons in a row.

[HoosierCat]

And I wouldn't discount the injuries so quickly.

And, one might add, the suspensions as well. Not to make excuses, but the fact is that when starters begin dropping like flies, your chances of going anywhere diminish considerably.

Just as an illustration, I dug up that piece that Hobson did a year or so ago comparing teams injury levels to their final record. It's here: http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=2734 The bottom line is that once a team loses more than two starters, they're in deep sh*t.

And so far this year, the Bengals are basically out 3 starters already: Odell, lost before the season began; Pollack, KO'd on his second defensive snap; and Rich Braham, who all reports say is gone until late in the season at best.

On top of that, the Bengals have lost Tab Perry and Antonio Chatman, a pair of key role players and special teamers. Those injuries have particularly hurt the return game.

In the other categories Hobson's story looks at, collective games mised by starters and players who have started every game, the numbers are getting ugly fast. After 7 games, Bengals starters have missed a collective 16 games. That pushes to 21 if you include Chris Perry. And we have just 13 players, O and D combined, who have started all 7 games.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Yep it's a philosophical/operational problem relating to the way the Brown family runs their franchise.

Skimp on defense and the 0-line, draft offensive skill players every single year in the 1st 3 rounds, only sign FA defenders when you're rather desperate, same with 0-lineman, is their MO.

And even then, they're mediocre at best filling major starting roles (Thorton, Dixon, Robinson, Hardy, Dexter, Adams, and the rest of the mediocre-to-declining heap)

They'll draft a tackle in the 1st round every 10 years, then not let him go for another 10, and not draft a single o-lineman in the 1st round again (including a TE) for another 10 years.

The Bengals' still operate like they're playing in the 70's or 80's.

Until that out-dated mindset is finally aborted, we'll be looking at defensive shortcomings en masse every year, and Carson Palmer wearing knee braces the size of Dan Marino and Elway by the time he's in his 6th year.

[Stripes]

We DO have playmakers on defense, as others have already stated. Mike Brown's name shouldn't even appear in this thread. Takeaways galore since 2004? Playmakers.

Madieu? Deltha? Tory when he isn't falling on his butt? Justin Smith? Odell and Pollack coming into the season? Joseph and Peko look to join the list soon enough as well.

Injuries, suspensions, and Mike Vick are the only reasons this thread exists today.

[skyline]

We DO have playmakers on defense, as others have already stated. Mike Brown's name shouldn't even appear in this thread. Takeaways galore since 2004? Playmakers.

Madieu? Deltha? Tory when he isn't falling on his butt? Justin Smith? Odell and Pollack coming into the season? Joseph and Peko look to join the list soon enough as well.

Injuries, suspensions, and Mike Vick are the only reasons this thread exists today.

Let's go ahead and add Geathers to that list.

And what about KK, who has arguably won two games for us thanks to his "playmaking" abilities?

[Stripes]

Certainly, Skyline.

I think the problems on defense are more in the fundamentals and in physicality.

[skyline]

Certainly, Skyline.

I think the problems on defense are more in the fundamentals and in physicality.

I agree completely.

Watching the Patriots game last night, the one comment that really had me nodding in agreement was that the Patriots are so good, because they pay so much attention to the fundamentals. They do all the things that high school football players are asked to do, and they do them all better than everyone else.

[Kazkal]

Oh for the love of God. Here we go again with the Mike Brown stuff again.

Aye you think after giving out the contracts he did this off season people would get a clue...Patriots are the penny penchers now.

[Kinnebrewski]

I can't believe some of you guys are so hung up on the interception frenzy of last year. Can't you see that was more or less a flash in the pan??? Do you see much carry-over in that regard this year? NO. So let's stop all of the preachiness here which is based on yesterday's news. And yes, Deltha O'Neal IS a playmaker, but one of very few.

And let's look at larger, longer trends anyway. Namely- when is the last time Cincinnati had a defensive player who had over 10 sacks??? 1971 ???

The pass rush has consistently SUCKED ever since I can remember. I would have loved to have seen Justin Smith blossom into a hardcore pass-rusher with the Bengals, but it's clear at this point it's not going to happen. Geathers seems to have a lot of upside, but if they surround him with mediocre talent on the line he will just be another Alfred Williams--- a huge talent suppressed by his supporting cast.

[Stripes]

Justin Smith has 6.5 sacks, just under one per game. Half the board KNEW that would happen once the Bengals upgraded the DT spot. He IS blossoming into a good pass rusher. Geathers too.

[101Airborne]

I can't believe some of you guys are so hung up on the interception frenzy of last year. Can't you see that was more or less a flash in the pan??? Do you see much carry-over in that regard this year? NO. So let's stop all of the preachiness here which is based on yesterday's news. And yes, Deltha O'Neal IS a playmaker, but one of very few.

And let's look at larger, longer trends anyway. Namely- when is the last time Cincinnati had a defensive player who had over 10 sacks??? 1971 ???

The pass rush has consistently SUCKED ever since I can remember. I would have loved to have seen Justin Smith blossom into a hardcore pass-rusher with the Bengals, but it's clear at this point it's not going to happen. Geathers seems to have a lot of upside, but if they surround him with mediocre talent on the line he will just be another Alfred Williams--- a huge talent suppressed by his supporting cast.

It's not that we lack playmakers it's that those great playmakers seem to be undisciplined. Look at how we over persue and fail to tackle. Those problems aren't from lacking playmaking ability, they are from lack of fundamentals. Fundamentals beat big playmaking any day IMO. We shouldn't be relying on KK to save every game with a pick in the endzone. PLaymakers? Yes! Disciplined? NO! That's our real problem.

[Bengalhead]

Justin Smith has 6.5 sacks, just under one per game. Half the board KNEW that would happen once the Bengals upgraded the DT spot. He IS blossoming into a good pass rusher. Geathers too.

Thats pretty convenient in a contract year, isn't it? Sam Adams is not the game changing force like we expected him to be so I don't contribute Smiths added production to him. However, it really is amazing at the amount of production a guy can put out when he stand to make more money at the end of the year. Smith's production, while a plus for the team, is merely the product of him setting himself up for a big contract next year. And for the record, I don't care if he leaves because he has PROVEN with his stats that he is an AVERAGE DE unless it's a contract year.

[derekshank]

Justin Smith has 6.5 sacks, just under one per game. Half the board KNEW that would happen once the Bengals upgraded the DT spot. He IS blossoming into a good pass rusher. Geathers too.

Thats pretty convenient in a contract year, isn't it? Sam Adams is not the game changing force like we expected him to be so I don't contribute Smiths added production to him. However, it really is amazing at the amount of production a guy can put out when he stand to make more money at the end of the year. Smith's production, while a plus for the team, is merely the product of him setting himself up for a big contract next year. And for the record, I don't care if he leaves because he has PROVEN with his stats that he is an AVERAGE DE unless it's a contract year.

Well... Sam Adams may not have seemed like a "game changing force"... but there is no question that the rotation of Adams, Peko, Thornton and S. Smith is much improved from last year. What has it caused? Justin Smith isn't double and triple covered every play. This is why he is one of the league leaders in sacks. Not because of a contract year.

Even the Smith detractors don't usually attempt to say he is lazy... just unskilled. He's always been a hard worker, and we're finally seeing that he actually has skill to go along with it. We finally we have a DT rotation that allows him to be one on one. We're finally seeing the production that we drafted... and that I personally believe he always would have had if he hadn't been alone. He always plays with a lot of pride... so I don't think you can write it off as a money issue. He's just finally getting some help.

[HairOnFire]

I give Fat Sam very little credit for the increased sack production of Justin Smith. Instead, I'll point to the opposite end of the line where Robert Geathers hardly resembles the clueless and sluggish player he was last season when inserted into the starting lineup. The change in Geathers is remarkable, and all one needs to look at for an explanation of why Smith's sack numbers have improved so dramatically. In fact, the argument that he's just a pass rusher who can't play the run is becoming more and more obsolete with each passing week. He's becoming a complete player, and a near perfect bookend for Justin Smith.

As for Kinnebrew's argument that the interception orgy was a flash in the pan sort of thing, take your own advice and look at the turnovers this team has produced long term. The interceptions have been coming at a high rate for three years in a row now, and the defense forced a remarkable number of forced fumbles in Marvin's first year.

The turnovers aren't a fluke. The Bengals gameplan for them.

Sadly, other criticism of the Bengals defense is harder to dismiss.

[HoosierCat]

I give Fat Sam very little credit for the increased sack production of Justin Smith. Instead, I'll point to the opposite end of the line where Robert Geathers hardly resembles the clueless and sluggish player he was last season when inserted into the starting lineup. The change in Geathers is remarkable, and all one needs to look at for an explanation of why Smith's sack numbers have improved so dramatically. In fact, the argument that he's just a pass rusher who can't play the run is becoming more and more obsolete with each passing week. He's becoming a complete player, and a near perfect bookend for Justin Smith.

Yeah, Geathers has come on this season. He's getting better in all facets of the game. A stouter interior has helped, but the bottom line is that Robert has clearly stepped up.