Peter King Rates 2001 Draft An A

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Article

I suppose the "King is an idiot!" comments won't be so prevalent this time around.

I agree, Justin, Chad, TJ and Rudi in one draft is excellent. Core of the offense in one draft.

[jjakq27]

It's one of the best drafts this team has ever had. Chad Johnson in the second round is probably the steal of that entire draft.

[AGrizzlyBaer]

when you pick up four rather good staters in a draft thats a good one

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Whoa triple post! Not sure what's up with the lag here today, I'm sure the other two will be deleted.

Marvin should send Lebeau a thank you card for that draft.

[kingwilly]

Even an idiot can tell that our 2001 draft was about as good as it could have been. He does not get off the "Idiot" hook by stating the obvious.

[cincy9275]

see lebeau did do some good .

[HoosierCat]

see lebeau did do some good .

Yup. Said so before myself. Had he stuck with Kitna as a starter in '02 instead of the three-headed-QB-hydra bit, Bengals history might be very different.

Specifically on the draft, I find it notable that in LeBeau's 2 drafts, 2001 and 2002, the team found 5 starters in 14 picks: Levi, Justin, Chad, Rudi and TJ. Meanwhile, from 2003-05, Marvin has had 27 picks...and found precisely the same number of starters: Palmer, Steinbach, Madieu, Odell and Henry. That's a 36% success rate versus a 19% success rate.

No offense to Marvin, obviously his arrival here has been far, far more positive than negative. But I never have forgotten a blurb on profootballtalk.com just after the bengals named him head coach, which quoted an anonymous league source as saying he was a great coach but a lousy judge of personnel. And nothing that's happened during Marvin's tenure has made that statement look dumb...

[ArmyBengal]

Chad Johnson in the second round is probably the steal of that entire draft.

While I respect your opinion, the steal of that draft in my mind would have to be TJ in the 7th !!!

WHODEY !!!

[jjakq27]

Chad Johnson in the second round is probably the steal of that entire draft.

While I respect your opinion, the steal of that draft in my mind would have to be TJ in the 7th !!!

WHODEY !!!

Yes,you are correct sir! TJ in the 7th was a great pick.

[AMC]

see lebeau did do some good .

Yup. Said so before myself. Had he stuck with Kitna as a starter in '02 instead of the three-headed-QB-hydra bit, Bengals history might be very different.

Specifically on the draft, I find it notable that in LeBeau's 2 drafts, 2001 and 2002, the team found 5 starters in 14 picks: Levi, Justin, Chad, Rudi and TJ. Meanwhile, from 2003-05, Marvin has had 27 picks...and found precisely the same number of starters: Palmer, Steinbach, Madieu, Odell and Henry. That's a 36% success rate versus a 19% success rate.

No offense to Marvin, obviously his arrival here has been far, far more positive than negative. But I never have forgotten a blurb on profootballtalk.com just after the bengals named him head coach, which quoted an anonymous league source as saying he was a great coach but a lousy judge of personnel. And nothing that's happened during Marvin's tenure has made that statement look dumb...

I tend to disagree about Marvin's draft record.

First, drafting is a group effort, not just the head coach.

Second, the starting lineup, especially on the offensive side of the ball, has been set for much of Marvin's tenure. This leads to fewer draftees becoming immediate starters. Marvin's drafts have been used to fill out the depth chart.

Last, as we know, drafts take a few years to mature. For instance, Landon, Keiwan, Andrews, Geathers, Pollack (already a starter), Guy-check, etc could all be full-time starters within a year or two.

[HairOnFire]

Second, the starting lineup, especially on the offensive side of the ball, has been set for much of Marvin's tenure. This leads to fewer draftees becoming immediate starters. Marvin's drafts have been used to fill out the depth chart.

Last, as we know, drafts take a few years to mature. For instance, Landon, Keiwan, Andrews, Geathers, Pollack (already a starter), Guy-check, etc could all be full-time starters within a year or two.

DING!!!!!!!!!!

[Kazkal]

And nothing that's happened during Marvin's tenure has made that statement look dumb...

Well some of its hard to judge because there still so young but why draft starters when you dont need too?

I'd say marvin and co have done preatty good job (better then alot of other teams out there) "shrug" + he's not the only one making the picks if it was always up too the headcoach the titans would have leinhart.

[HoosierCat]

Last, as we know, drafts take a few years to mature. For instance, Landon, Keiwan, Andrews, Geathers, Pollack (already a starter), Guy-check, etc could all be full-time starters within a year or two.

They could, but I doubt it. Pollack I do not yet count as a starter. Hopefully, that changes this year. Landon got his shot when Nate went down, did well, but was displaced by the rookie Odell last year. Geathers had his own shot last year and now has been moved back to situational pass rusher, putting him in a scrum with the likes of Frostee and Henderson just to make the cut. Keiwan could still take a step up, but right now looks like a career nickle corner. Andrews? Whodafuk knows. Cerrtainly drafting Whitworth didn't bode well. As for Guy-chek (or Ben Wilkerson) I certainly hope someone comes along to replace Richie soon.

[Stripes]

I think it's a bit unfair as of right now to compare LeBeau's 2001 draft with any of Marvin and crew. First and foremost, that 2001 group was awesome. That might be the best single draft by any team of the new millenium (yes, that's probably an overly bold statement).

Marvin has arguably yet to produce a truly "bad" draft. Some will crap on the 2004 job, but if that one was his worst work, then I'm more than pleased. We need more time to see what his projects amount to. Just my opinion.

[Walrus]

I think it's a bit unfair as of right now to compare LeBeau's 2001 draft with any of Marvin and crew. First and foremost, that 2001 group was awesome. That might be the best single draft by any team of the new millenium (yes, that's probably an overly bold statement).

Marvin has arguably yet to produce a truly "bad" draft. Some will crap on the 2004 job, but if that one was his worst work, then I'm more than pleased. We need more time to see what his projects amount to. Just my opinion.

I agree. It's not a stretch to say the Bengals 2001 draft would compare favorably to anyone's draft so far this decade.

Besides, if the 2001 draft had been evaluated 2 years ago, we wouldn't have fared so well in King's evaluation since Rudi and TJ really hadn't come on yet.

Just think who could emerge from the classes of 2002 and 2003 in the next few years...

2002 Cincinnati Bengals

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 10 Levi Jones T Arizona State

2 41 Lamont Thompson FS Washington State

3 67 Matt Schobel TE Texas Christian

4 109 Travis Dorsch K Purdue

6 181 Marquand Manuel FS Florida

7 219 Joey Evans DE North Carolina

Well, ok, probably not much there other than Levi and he's already "emerged"... I'm in the minority who thinks Schobel is a good TE. Maybe he'll take off on another team?

2003 Cincinnati Bengals

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 1 Carson Palmer QB Southern California

2 33 Eric Steinbach G Iowa

3 65 Kelley Washington WR Tennessee

4 98 Dennis Weathersby CB Oregon State

4 118 Jeremi Johnson FB Western Kentucky

5 136 Khalid Abdullah OLB Mars Hill

6 174 Langston Moore DE South Carolina

7 215 Scott Kooistra G North Carolina State

7 259 Elton Patterson DE Central Florida

Obviously Carson is golden. Steinbach, too. I'm still holding out for Kelley -- given the opportunity will he be a factor in the NFL? Jeremi Johnson: gold. Doesn't look like Kooistra will be a starter. But he's solid and it's a funny game so who knows... Anyone else see how either of these draft classes might develop in the next year or so?

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I think it's a bit unfair as of right now to compare LeBeau's 2001 draft with any of Marvin and crew. First and foremost, that 2001 group was awesome. That might be the best single draft by any team of the new millenium (yes, that's probably an overly bold statement).

Marvin has arguably yet to produce a truly "bad" draft. Some will crap on the 2004 job, but if that one was his worst work, then I'm more than pleased. We need more time to see what his projects amount to. Just my opinion.

I agree. It's not a stretch to say the Bengals 2001 draft would compare favorably to anyone's draft so far this decade.

Besides, if the 2001 draft had been evaluated 2 years ago, we wouldn't have fared so well in King's evaluation since Rudi and TJ really hadn't come on yet.

Just think who could emerge from the classes of 2002 and 2003 in the next few years...

2002 Cincinnati Bengals

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 10 Levi Jones T Arizona State

2 41 Lamont Thompson FS Washington State

3 67 Matt Schobel TE Texas Christian

4 109 Travis Dorsch K Purdue

6 181 Marquand Manuel FS Florida

7 219 Joey Evans DE North Carolina

Well, ok, probably not much there other than Levi and he's already "emerged"... I'm in the minority who thinks Schobel is a good TE. Maybe he'll take off on another team?

2003 Cincinnati Bengals

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 1 Carson Palmer QB Southern California

2 33 Eric Steinbach G Iowa

3 65 Kelley Washington WR Tennessee

4 98 Dennis Weathersby CB Oregon State

4 118 Jeremi Johnson FB Western Kentucky

5 136 Khalid Abdullah OLB Mars Hill

6 174 Langston Moore DE South Carolina

7 215 Scott Kooistra G North Carolina State

7 259 Elton Patterson DE Central Florida

Obviously Carson is golden. Steinbach, too. I'm still holding out for Kelley -- given the opportunity will he be a factor in the NFL? Jeremi Johnson: gold. Doesn't look like Kooistra will be a starter. But he's solid and it's a funny game so who knows... Anyone else see how either of these draft classes might develop in the next year or so?

Potentially, there could only be 2 players total from the '03-'04 drafts left on this roster come this time next year. (Palmer and Levi or Steinbach) Unless JJ signed a multi-year deal. Schobel's most likely gone, Steinbach's contract situation is going nowhere, JJ is a year-to-year weight watch, and even if KW has a good year, he may be too expensive to keep, or could just be let go pending.

Just had to mention that. But I think the 2003 draft was very solid, not even counting Carson, who was an obvious choice to most. Abdullah and Weathersby were both injury casualties obviously, and you can't knock the Bengals' for that alone.

2002 was pretty horrid.

[jjakq27]

Here is a thread we had going back in May regarding Marvin's drafts and even some stuff on LeBeau's drafts.

http://forums.bengalszone.com/index.php?showtopic=11171

Chad Johnson in the second round is probably the steal of that entire draft.

While I respect your opinion, the steal of that draft in my mind would have to be TJ in the 7th !!!

WHODEY !!!

Yes,you are correct sir! TJ in the 7th was a great pick.

If you look back at that earlier thread, I won the Mr. Obvious award by stating that besides Carson, Chad was the best pick the Bengals made in the previous 10 drafts.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

A link to Bengals drafts through the years for convenience...

http://www.drafthistory.com/teams/bengals.html

What struck me is just how atrocious, even in retrospect, that their drafts were, year in and year out, until the 2001 draft (except possibly 1998). I remember them being bad of course, but it's stunning when you see them all together. It's nice that we have scouts again.

And to defend 2003 - KW and Weathersby looked like steals at the time, and JJ is a great FB. So I'd say that was 5 good picks 1-5, even if they didn't work out perfectly. I still think 2004 was a disaster, given how many picks they had. I think they only got good value on 3 of the picks (Jumpy, Landon, and uh, Madieu). Perry didn't have any business in the 1st round, Ratliff has disappointed, and none of the rest of them have gotten significant PT.

[cincy9275]

the 02 did produce more than levi .

lamont thompson- starting saftey titans.

marquand manuel- super bowl starter for the seahawwks got injured in the game and is now with green bay .

matt schobel- signed with philly.

so there were some decent players chosen they just were not to marvin's liking so the got cut . so to me if you get 3 starter levi manuel thompson 1 2nd string backup schobel and your first pick is a probowl talent at left tackle . that's a pretty good draft .

[HoosierCat]

I still think 2004 was a disaster, given how many picks they had. I think they only got good value on 3 of the picks (Jumpy, Landon, and uh, Madieu). Perry didn't have any business in the 1st round, Ratliff has disappointed, and none of the rest of them have gotten significant PT.

Yeah, that's definitely the most suspect of Marvin's drafts so far. And given that this is year 3 for all these guys coming up, we ought to get a good idea of just how that draft grades out by the end of this season. I have said it before and I'll say it again: if the Bengals take a step back in 2006 -- and I'm not predicting they will, just "if" -- the failure of this draft class to live up to expectations will be a big reason why.

[Walrus]

the 02 did produce more than levi .

lamont thompson- starting saftey titans.

marquand manuel- super bowl starter for the seahawwks got injured in the game and is now with green bay .

matt schobel- signed with philly.

so there were some decent players chosen they just were not to marvin's liking so the got cut . so to me if you get 3 starter levi manuel thompson 1 2nd string backup schobel and your first pick is a probowl talent at left tackle . that's a pretty good draft .

Agreed. The Bengals should get props for drafting Manuel and Thompson -- two quality NFL starters. If Schobel makes good in Philly, that would make 4 quality starters out of 6 picks in '02 -- a very successful draft.

That said, it's too bad we went and cut 2 solid NFL DBs when that has been such a weak point on our team. I wonder if Marvin has ever thought about that or if he has any regrets...

[ArmyBengal]

"If" the Bengals do indeed take that step back, I to would look to that draft as a good reason why, but will also say, the 2007 schedule could make them all look like superstars again !!!

WHODEY !!!

[HoosierCat]

That said, it's too bad we went and cut 2 solid NFL DBs when that has been such a weak point on our team. I wonder if Marvin has ever thought about that or if he has any regrets...

I wouldn't be surprised if he's had an occasional twinge of regret, but I think he came in with the attitude that he was going to err on the side of rebuilding. In other words, if he had any doubt about player X buying in and/or having the necessary talent, they would be moved out. And given the disaster zone that was the pre-Marvin Bengals, you can't really fault that strategy; the franchise was simply too shot through with foulups, bleeps and blunders. That a few good players would get caught in the sweep was probably inevitable.

[Walrus]

That said, it's too bad we went and cut 2 solid NFL DBs when that has been such a weak point on our team. I wonder if Marvin has ever thought about that or if he has any regrets...

I wouldn't be surprised if he's had an occasional twinge of regret, but I think he came in with the attitude that he was going to err on the side of rebuilding. In other words, if he had any doubt about player X buying in and/or having the necessary talent, they would be moved out. And given the disaster zone that was the pre-Marvin Bengals, you can't really fault that strategy; the franchise was simply too shot through with foulups, bleeps and blunders. That a few good players would get caught in the sweep was probably inevitable.

Yes, good points. Guess you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs ...

... or without being second-guessed by know-it-all fans everytime an egg breaks!

[jjakq27]

the 02 did produce more than levi .

lamont thompson- starting saftey titans.

marquand manuel- super bowl starter for the seahawwks got injured in the game and is now with green bay .

matt schobel- signed with philly.

so there were some decent players chosen they just were not to marvin's liking so the got cut . so to me if you get 3 starter levi manuel thompson 1 2nd string backup schobel and your first pick is a probowl talent at left tackle . that's a pretty good draft .

Agreed. The Bengals should get props for drafting Manuel and Thompson -- two quality NFL starters. If Schobel makes good in Philly, that would make 4 quality starters out of 6 picks in '02 -- a very successful draft.

That said, it's too bad we went and cut 2 solid NFL DBs when that has been such a weak point on our team. I wonder if Marvin has ever thought about that or if he has any regrets...

I always liked Manuel when he was here. He's one that I may have kept. Sometimes it seemed as though Thompson was afraid to hit people but he has also developed nicely. Schobel could have been much more and I wouldn't be surprised if he catches 40 passes this year.

I think Marvin may have had some preconceptions about Thompson and Manuel while these players were scouted by the Ravens before the draft. He also had all of the game tapes from '02 which must have been dreadful to watch, so these guys may not have shined much either.

And in fairness to Marvin, how many safeties have been on IR since he came here? Kim Herring, Madieu Williams and Rogers Beckett, by my count. If these guys would have been healthy, they wouldn't have needed Thompson or Manuel. But it is part of the game.