Marvin's Drafts (and some pre Marvin review too)

[kingwilly]

Since there has been so much discussion on this year's selections, I thought it would be appropriate to hash through the pciks since hMarvin has arrived:

2003 - Then, I graded as a B+, maily due to our r1 and r2 pciks but also due to the good versatile athletes who came along.

Now I'd say it was an A draft.

1 1 Carson Palmer QB Southern California - All-Pro, Franchise QB..nuff said.

2 33 Eric Steinbach G Iowa - Among the elite guards in the league..great pick

3 65 Kelley Washington WR Tennessee - Has contributed but has never reached potential

4 98 Dennis Weathersby CB Oregon State - bad luck, tough break, what could have been.

4 118 Jeremi Johnson FB Western Kentucky - excellent value pick..now the highest paid FB in the NFL

5 136 Khalid Abdullah OLB Mars Hill - ST contirbutor, but injured and then cut

6 174 Langston Moore DE South Carolina - gone

7 215 Scott Kooistra G North Carolina State - Good pick, as a versatile part of our O-line depth.

7 259 Elton Patterson DE Central Florida - gone

2004 - Then, I graded as a B-. Would have been an A but Perry's injury hampers my enthusiasm. Volume of picks meant this draft gave us a major influx of talent to wash-out any former hangers-on. Now, I'd call it a B+.

1 26 Chris Perry RB Michigan - hurt and could not contribute. This pick caught heat, as some thought having Rudi was the answer. At the time Rudi's future was up in the air, so it was more of an insurance pick. Perry hcontributed in '05 and will play more of a role in '06.

2 49 Keiwan Ratliff CB Florida - Ratliff's progress has stalled out a bit. This pick was thought to be our CB answer but some of his limitations, range and speed hold him back

2 56 Madieu Williams FS Maryland - steal of the draft. if Madieu can stay healthy he is a Pro Bowl worhty player.

3 80 Caleb Miller LB Arkansas - good LB depth and ST player...had health issues but is a good player

3 96 Landon Johnson OLB Purdue - another steal in this draft. Consistent player who glies to the ball. Size is a ? but has smarts to compensate

4 114 Matthias Askew DT Michigan State - borderline bust...can;t seem to find the field, despite excellent physical attributes and skills. Immature is used to describe him

4 117 Robert Geathers DE Georgia - decent value pick but changes in D-Coordinators and position may not have set him up for success. '06 will define his future role.

4 123 Stacy Andrews T Mississippi - major project but another excellent athlete who can be developed.

5 149 Maurice Mann WR Nevada - gone

6 183 Greg Brooks CB Southern Mississippi - has hung on but has injury/size concerns

7 218 Casey Bramlet QB Wyoming - got the #3 role but has since been passed on. I thought this was a smart pick and wish he was still around.

2005 - Then I graded as an A-. Pollacks hold-out stalled his season. Just about everyone in this draft had contributions. Now, I'd call it a solid A.

1 17 David Pollack OLB Georgia - '06 could be a breakout year for waterboy.

2 48 Odell Thurman MLB Georgia - amazing rookie season. Either he has a sophomore slump or he is goin to Hawaii. I lay my money on a trip to Honolulu

3 83 Chris Henry WR West Virginia - great contributor, kept KW on the bench. But issues off the field cloud his future. High risk, high reward situation.

4 119 Eric Ghiaciuc C Central Michigan - played well when asked. He contriutes to the overall quality of our O-Line depth

5 153 Adam Kieft T Central Michigan - hurt but on road to recovery. Excellent athlete.

6 190 Tab Perry WR UCLA - as good a value oick as can be had. Done verything asked above expectation

7 233 Jonathan Fanene DE Utah - played well when asked. Versatility give him value as a DE or DT

We've beaten the '06 draft to death...now we will just wait and see.

[Stripes]

I see no picks at all on that list that I would call "bad" (except maybe Chris Perry). Some say Weathersby and Askew were bad, and that's two outta a bunch.

Great late picks like Jeremi Johnson, Scott Kooistra, and Tab Perry are what makes me confident in Marvin's weirder picks this year, like Frostee.

[HoosierCat]

2003 is an A for Palmer alone. Steinbach, Jeremi and Koo just make it that much sweeter.

This is the judgment year for the '04 class. Right now, I honestly have to give that draft a D. Only guy who saves it from being an F is Madieu. Other than him, not one solid starter has emerged from 5 day 1 and 11 overall picks. That's pretty bad. We did get some good backups and role players, like Landon and Geathers, but really this is a group that needs to step it up. If they don't, I see four -- Andrews, Brooks, Miller and Askew -- who may not even be around come September.

'05 is still an incomplete, I think. Odell looks like a winner, Tab could be another late-round steal like TJ turned out to be, and Pollack at least flashed some stuff late last year. OTOH Henry may end up a waste and none of the rest of the guys really jumped out at me...but it remains too soon to really tell.

[TecmoFever]

Good writeup, kingwilly.

I have to disagree about the 2004 draft, though. We had eight picks in the first four rounds, and only one of them is a starter (Madieu). I think that we got a lot of quality depth, but should have gotten another starter or two. I still don't know about the Keiwan pick, and we wouldn't have had to take him in Round 2 if we take Chris GAMBLE in Round 1. Those are the ones that still bother me.

What does make the 2004 draft look better, though, is the fact that we picked up Deltha O'Neal and only had to move back seven spots to do so. (We then, of course, moved back two more picks and grabbed Perry).

Last year was the best of all, I think. When you get contributions from six out of the seven rounds, and SIGNIFICANT contributions from a third and sixth rounder, it's a good draft.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Good writeup, kingwilly.

I have to disagree about the 2004 draft, though. We had eight picks in the first four rounds, and only one of them is a starter (Madieu). I think that we got a lot of quality depth, but should have gotten another starter or two. I still don't know about the Keiwan pick, and we wouldn't have had to take him in Round 2 if we take Chris GAMBLE in Round 1. Those are the ones that still bother me.

What does make the 2004 draft look better, though, is the fact that we picked up Deltha O'Neal and only had to move back seven spots to do so. (We then, of course, moved back two more picks and grabbed Perry).

Last year was the best of all, I think. When you get contributions from six out of the seven rounds, and SIGNIFICANT contributions from a third and sixth rounder, it's a good draft.

Much depends on Pollack in his first full year at LB. If he turns out to be the real deal and Cheech doesn't end up as somebody's boyfriend in the pen, that draft has A+ potential.

I also agree with Joisey on 2004...if they got a GPA for that draft grade, they'd have been academically ineligible.

[Kazkal]

Well geathers is a starter atm =P and Landon will be once they decide Bsimmons has lost too much of a step

[HoosierCat]

Well geathers is a starter atm =P and Landon will be once they decide Bsimmons has lost too much of a step

Well, Geathers didn't exactly wow 'em as a starter and Landon has yet to actually unseat Simmons. If those two should step it up, then the grade will go up. Conventional wisdom says it takes 3 years to judge a draft and this is year 3 for these guys.

IMHO, this is really the draft class to watch this season. Not that I don't expect contributions from guys taken later, from Pollack and Odell to Joseph and Non-Dairy Dessert Man, but it's time for the class of '04 to justify Marvin's love.

[Kazkal]

Very true,though I don't think it was all geathers fault that he was moved inside quite abit +first year as a starter...this will be the year he needs show what he has or 2 young DE's are rdy take his spot

[BengalPappaw]

Kingwilly,

Thanks for the look back.

As I recall those drafts, I was very happy with the quality and the potential of the players that ML picked.

That relative success in the draft, really makes me wonder about this year's draft. This year's draft seems out of character to me.

I still have questions on why a player like Frostee was taken in the 3rd.

But, now it doesn't matter -- Frostee is ours. We now need to hope that he plays up to ML's expectations -- not mine!

[BengalszoneBilly]

2004 - Then, I graded as a B-. Would have been an A but Perry's injury hampers my enthusiasm.

1 26 Chris Perry RB Michigan - hurt and could not contribute. This pick caught heat.

This pick will continue to catch heat (at least from me) until he performs to a level even close to what a #1 pick should bring. So far that has just not happened.

Perry contributed in '05 and will play more of a role in '06.

With this guy's past record of time spent on the DL, that's going out on a big ass limb with that statement. All I can say is he better play more of a role in 06, because so far he has shown all the durability of tissue paper in a tornado!

And yes...IMHO I still think he's a bust.

BTW, great topic KingWilly.

[HairOnFire]

The only thing that looks good about the Perry pick has absolutely nothing to do with Perry, and everything to do with trading out of the original draft slot to pick up Deltha O'Neal in trade. There's the value you look for. Or if you prefer, there's the lipstick for your pig.

Wanna make yourself sick? Imagine the Bengals had stayed put, no trade was made, and they still take Perry.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Wanna make yourself sick? Imagine the Bengals had stayed put, no trade was made, and they still take Perry.

Oh...God...no!

AAAAAArrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!

[GregCook]

Before Marvin, the Bengals were 2 -14. After 3 years of Marvin Drafts, the record was what? 11 AND 5.

What is there to debate? Marvin knows what he's about, he's drafted exceedingly well and his record proves it.

[Kazkal]

well guys before came here helped some

chad,levi,willie etc

[schweinhart]

The defensive picks should be the more telling ones than the ones of offense since most of that side of the ball was already in place, Palmer would have been the #1 regardless of who the head coach was and Marvin's trademark is defense.

While Madieu, Thurman and Pollack look like potentially great players, the D-line has not really improved through the draft. The team has relied on 2nd tier free agency and a waiver wire claim in Shaun Smith to staff the line (with hopes now that Sam Adams still has some beast left in him). The 3rd round pick of Rucker this year and the 4ths in Jumpy Jr., Askew and Peko probably won't change that strategy too much although no free agent DE was brought in this year.

[jjakq27]

well guys before came here helped some

chad,levi,willie etc

Good point. I think what Marvin and the Tobin's have done is increased the depth of this team. The Bengals have always had great individual performers even in the lean years, but they now have depth and quality backups at nearly every position. I also believe that this coaching staff has the ability to teach the young players while coaches like Joe Wessel, Bobby DePaul and Al Roberts were a real liability.

Just for "fun", here are the Bengals picks from the last 4 years of the pre-Marvin period.

1999

Prelude: New Orleans offers the Bengals all 8 of their draft choices for their pick (No. 3 overall) but the Bengals reject the offer. Washington makes the trade and NO moves into the No. 5 spot to take Rickey Williams. Washington takes Champ Bailey at No. 7.

1 3 Akili Smith-QB-Nuff said.

2 33 Charles Fisher-CB-injuries ended career before it started.

3 65 Cory Hall-S-Started here for awhile and later played for Atlanta.

4 98 Craig Yeast-WR-The Akili-to-Yeast combo reminded me of the Klinger-to-Query days.

5 135 Nick Williams (aka Nicholas Luchey)-FB-Played for GB and was picked up during mid-season last year. Had one great game in 2002 against NO that gave Bengals one of their two wins that year. The other was against the expansion Houston Texans.

6 173 Kelly Gregg-NT-A guy that would have been an upgrade to this D-line had he stayed. Plays for Ravens now.

7a 209 Tony Coats-G-?

7b 245 Scott Covington-QB-Ex-U of M QB that couldn't even unseat Akili.

7c 249 Donald Broomfield-DE-?

2000

1 4 Peter Warrick-WR-Knee injury ruined his career after a breakout season in 2003. Now with Seattle.

2 34 Mark Roman-CB-Plays for Packers

3 66 Ron Dugans-WR-College teammate of PDub at FSU. Foot injury ended career.

4 97 Curtis Keaton-HB-Showed some potential as a change-of-pace back to Corey Dillon but was traded to New Orleans in 2002.

5 133 Robert Bean-CB-??

6 169 Neil Rackers-K-Battled PBS turf problems, Travis Dorsch (in 2002) and his own demons while here.

Has emerged as one of the top kickers in the NFL with the Cardinals.

7 210 Brad St. Louis-TE/LS-Steady player as long snapper for Bengals.

2001

1 4 Justin Smith-DE-Solid player for Bengals but has not lived up being the No. 4 pick.

2 36 Chad Johnson-WR-Other than Carson Palmer, this is probably the best pick the Bengals have made in the last 10 drafts, when they acqured Corey Dillon in round 2 in 1997. I believe he is the face of this team around the country. Has led the AFC in receiving the last three years.

3 66 Sean Brewer-TE-Anybody got a match?

4 100 Rudi Johnson-RB-Another great pick. Many thought it was a wasted one since Corey Dillon was considered one of the top backs in the league at the time.

5 135 Victor Leyva-G-Never blossomed as expected.

6 168 Riall Johnson-LB-Decent player on special teams. Later played for Arizona and Toronto (CFL).

7 254 TJ Houshmandzadeh-WR-Starter and perfect compliment to Chad Johnson. Brings toughness and attitude to the offense.

2002

1 10 Levi Jones-T-Solid player that has become a key piece of the O-line.

2 41 Lamont Thompson-S-Never prospered while in Cincinnati. Has become a consistent player in Tennessee.

3 67 Matt Schobel-TE-Main receiving threat from the TE position. SIgned with Philly in offseason.

4 109 Travis Dorsch-K-P-Team could not make up their mind on whether he was a punter or a kicker which seemed to ruin him. Went to GB after leaving here and is now listed on Giants' website roster.

5 None

6 181 Marquand Manual-S-Played 28 games with the Bengals but was gone after 2003 season. Starter on Seattle's Super Bowl team.

7 219 Joey Evans-DE-??

Feel free to add to it....

[HoosierCat]

2001

1 4 Justin Smith-DE-Solid player for Bengals but has not lived up being the No. 4 pick.

2 36 Chad Johnson-WR-Other than Carson Palmer, this is probably the best pick the Bengals have made in the last 10 drafts, when they acqured Corey Dillon in round 2 in 1997. I believe he is the face of this team around the country. Has led the AFC in receiving the last three years.

3 66 Sean Brewer-TE-Anybody got a match?

4 100 Rudi Johnson-RB-Another great pick. Many thought it was a wasted one since Corey Dillon was considered one of the top backs in the league at the time.

5 135 Victor Leyva-G-Never blossomed as expected.

6 168 Riall Johnson-LB-decent player on special teams. Later played for Arizona and Toronto (CFL).

7 254 TJ Houshmandzadeh-WR-Starter and perfect compliment to Chad Johnson. Brings toughness and attitude to the offense.

2003 is close...but I would have to say that draft was the Bengals' best in at least 10 years. Gawd knows we deserved a break after the 1999 and 2000 disasters. Justin Smith is the only d-lineman we have who's been worth spit, even if he hasn't lived up to the No. 4 pick. Chad Johnson is a superstar, Rudi was recently named by SI as the best active 4th round pick in the league, and just read that number before TJ's name. 254. There are a lot of teams eating a lot of crow on that one.

2 solid starters + 2 Pro Bowlers out of 7 total picks = A++ in my book. Even with the Brewer pick!

[Stripes]

2 solid starters + 2 Pro Bowlers out of 7 total picks = A++ in my book. Even with the Brewer pick!

No doubt. That might be the best draft class since it happened for ANY team.