Hobson on Dline and 3-4

[Kazkal]

Mybe he was just ment for when they ran sub packages >_<

Sam Adams=Nose tackle nono

Shaun Smith= only true nose tackle

Brob=DE

JT=DE

Justin,askew = no mention about 3-4

Jonathan Fanene=perfect 3-4 DE

DRAFT PROSPECTS: DEFENSIVE LINE

Mathis Kiwanuka (Getty Images)

When the players are coming up to the reporters and asking them if they know if the Bengals are sticking with the 4-3 defense or switching to the 3-4 this season, then you know head coach Marvin Lewis has done a heck of a job keeping things under wraps.

But Lewis probably won’t make up his mind until the smoke clears from this weekend’s draft and there are a couple of defensive ends who could set off a 3-4 buzz if the Bengals take them at No. 24.

It’s pretty clear the Bengals won’t have a shot at defensive tackles Brodrick Bunkley and Haloti Ngata and end Mario Williams, and the Sam Adams signing means they don’t have to reach for Michigan tackle Gabe Watson.

One guy who may or may not be there and would probably signal a return to the 4-3 is Boston College end Mathias Kiwanuka. He’s 6-5, 268 pounds, is eyelash-quick off the ball, and sounds like he would be a nice fit in Cincinnati. Ourlads Scouting Services compares his long arms and speed to Dolphins Pro Bowl end Jason Taylor but also says he needs to get bigger and stronger at the point of attack.

Jerry Jones, the former Cincinnati pharmacist and long-time observer of Bengals drafts who publishes the draft survey The DrugStore List, doesn’t get too overwhelmed by the knocks against Kiwanuka playing vs. the run. He thinks he’s improving (he missed a couple of games with a minor knee injury this past season) and compares him favorably to a defensive end the Bengals picked No. 4 in 2001.

“When Justin Smith came in, he was told he was going to have to do more things other than just rush the passer and he’s turned into an excellent all-around player,” Jones says. “I don’t know why they’re not trying to re-sign him. A guy like that will be hard to find in the draft. Very few of these guys are asked to do more than one thing in college. But (Kiwanuka) can learn how to play the run.”

Although ESPN’s Mel Kiper Jr., says he doesn’t play consistently enough to be a top prospect and that he’ll have to develop a secondary move instead of relying on his big wingspan, he also says Kiwanuka is “a gifted athlete with tremendous physical prowess.”

Fact is, Kiwanuka has impressed scouts with speed and movement and the ability to turn the corner and make a play. With Smith unsigned, it’s not a bad pick.

Tamba Hali (Getty Images)

Another 4-3 end is Penn State’s Tamba Hali. His life should be a movie after his miraculous exit from war-torn Liberia. He’s a real grinder more than a workout numbers guy who plays with great effort, intensity and has the good balance to go with the long arms. Teams are hesitant because of his height and he may be a late first-rounder, early second because of it, but Jones argues, “He’s the reason Ohio State didn’t win it all, and the last I checked he was getting around some pretty good guys.”

The ends who set off the 3-4 alarms? North Carolina State’s Manny Lawson, who probably won’t be there, and Florida State’s Kamerion Wimbley. The 6-5, 241-pound Lawson is the hot pick of this week and why not?

Calling him “a rare athlete with speed and fluid movement,” Ourlads says he will be disruptive as a rush linebacker. The man runs a 4.43-second 40-yard dash and has arms long enough to block seven kicks in his career. Putting him on the other side of a linebacker/end the Bengals already have in David Pollack would make you go 3-4 in a hurry. But, alas, the more pub he gets, the higher he probably goes on Saturday.

The 6-3, 250-pound Wimbley was the consensus best pass rusher on the South team at the Senior Bowl, but he’d have a heck of a time in a 4-3 against the massive offensive tackles. He’s another guy with a great motor who needs to get stronger against the run. But he’s very quick, knows how to rush the passer, and athletic enough to have played five positions (defensive end, linebacker, quarterback, receiver, punter) in high school. And he’ll be able to figure it out because he graduated from high school a semester early.

He seems awfully small to play end in a 4-3, but Kiper says he’ll be able to pass rush out of it and he compares him to another Florida State guy Lewis drafted and cultivated into a Pro Bowler: Peter Boulware.

Conventional wisdom is Lewis is going to stick with the 4-3 base, but he’d probably like to get even more multiple than last season to keep teams guessing what scheme they’re playing, a la the Patriots and Cowboys.

A couple of things working against the 3-4 is that Adams isn’t a 3-4 nose and the only guy the Bengals have that really fits that spot is Shaun Smith. Plus, they would really need another pass rusher on the other side to complement Pollack and the 270-poundish Justin Smith and Robert Geathers aren’t big enough to play a 3-4 end.

A couple of things in favor of the 3-4 is that tackles like John Thornton and Bryan Robinson are big enough to be 3-4 ends, and Pollack is a 3-4 type of backer who can also rush the passer.

Figure the Bengals draft at least one tackle and one end during the seven rounds, while also adding two or three college free agents.

Stay tuned.

I'm glad not everyone is blind when it comes too Justin and know theres more too a DE then double digit sacks

LE Justin Smith (6th season, Missouri, 6-4, 270; Turns 27 Sept. 20)

Perfect example of a guy who is a victim of his draft position. At No. 4 in the country, people want him to be Michael Strahan with double-digit sacks every year. His high is 8.5, but he’s everything teams want in a first-rounder: productive, durable, consistent. Write him in for 6.5 sacks and 90 tackles a year, and the only game the kid has missed is the opener after his rookie holdout.

“Justin is always in great shape, plays hard and he plays every down. He holds up well against the run,” Hayes says.

Smith has slimmed back down to about 270, and Hayes is looking for him to finish off some of those sacks when he gets the quarterback hemmed in.

[jungleman85]

Interesting. I'd really like to see the Bengals give Tamba Hali a shot. He has desire, and he's a pretty good player from what I've seen.

[Whur CHad At?]

Interesting. I'd really like to see the Bengals give Tamba Hali a shot. He has desire, and he's a pretty good player from what I've seen.

Can't say I agree more...but you know TJ is gonna dog him becuase he didn't run his 40 in 4.4 or lower

[jungleman85]

Interesting. I'd really like to see the Bengals give Tamba Hali a shot. He has desire, and he's a pretty good player from what I've seen.

Can't say I agree more...but you know TJ is gonna dog him becuase he didn't run his 40 in 4.4 or lower

To much stock is put into those 40 times and such. When is a DE ever going to run 40 yards straight in a football game?

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Wow a DE getting 90+ tackles and 6-8 sacks! The Bengals' shouldn't have anyone getting past the left side of the defensive LOS!

They should be #1 in the NFL!

Why have linebackers then?

Disengaging from a tackle and letting him bowl over LB's and DB's is not a DE's job. Nor is wearing yourself out to make a tackle 5-10 yards downfield, or using the same lame speed rush move to the outside every passing down, where offenses just take advantage of your predictability.

If you play enough snaps, are fast and can run around enough, don't get hurt, then you'll put up #'s over a full season in that position.

But that doesn't help the fact they were 28th in total defense and 26th in yards per carry as a defense, and 20th against the run (yardage).

He's been here for years now and it's never changed.

I say it's time for a change, if nothing else use him differently.

But i'd just assume not pay him big bucks, and use a more traditional guy there and let these LB's make some more tackles like they should.

Smith can be a play maker but as a 4-down lineman he just seems to get tired rushing the passer and reading plays freelance.

Again if your d-lineman are making that many tackles, then your LB's suck, or your schemes/personnel are not protecting them and giving them enough opportunities at the LOS.

I've still yet to see Smith beat a T off the snap in my life - and that is one of the few/only ways you will get to a QB in the NFL - I just want a better pass rusher at DE - let the LB's do their jobs. Let the DE do his.

[kingwilly]

Shula I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!

Smith is not a terrible player but has NOT lived up to a #4 pick...even Warrick continued to develop, then got hurt. he is a decent Pro, comes ready to play but is not in the same class as your average Pro Bowl end.

I've presented the idea that with his motor he would be a decent 3-4 LB, even inside because his speed is not that of a Pollack.

I thought about it a bit and am hard pressed to remember Smith getting a sack because he flat beat a guy versus a coverage sack due to no one being open/slow flat -footed QB...

[HoosierCat]

But that doesn't help the fact they were 28th in total defense and 26th in yards per carry as a defense, and 20th against the run (yardage).

He's been here for years now and it's never changed.

Yeah, and it's all his fault.

Heaven knows Justin Smith has been teamed with such awesome talent on the d-line! I mean, Tony Williams...John Thornton...Shaun Smith...Mathais Askew...and of course who can forget Carl Powell? And those linebackers, what a group: Kevin Hardy, Caleb Miller, Nate "ow my ACL" Webster...and of course Brian Simmons. And let's not forget David Pollack...has there even been such an impact from a 1st round rookie OLB? And don't forget those killer safeties, like Ohalete and K2, in run support!

Yeah, I just can't understand why Justin Smith makes 90 tackles a year with all that talent around him.

It's a fricking wonder his tackle total isn't 180 a year.

My shout out to all the Justin Smith haters:

(PS: So yo willy where's my Justin Smith jersey? j/k)

[Kazkal]

Don't forget he's really wasting his energy thats why hes in almost everydown oh and don't forget how he er missed that 1 game back on his er rookie season er the very first game of season jeez why did we get rid of clemons we should have cut justins ass and kept the roid user

[derekshank]

You guys are really asking for a lecture from HairOnFire...

[Stripes]

You guys are really asking for a lecture from HairOnFire...

I'm sure Hair's eager for that opportunity.

I've been a Justin Smith supporter all along. Give that man a new set of tackles (halfway there) and I bet his numbers improve. He already plays harder than anyone else on the line.

[Kazkal]

/sends haironfire a private message and gives him a link too the post

[turningpoint]

IMO Hali is a 2nd rounder all the way.

[Kazkal]

Hali seems like he be good pick sense he looks like he could be 3-4 and 4-3 DE so we could use him in the base 4-3 and then 3-4 packages

[lando griffin]

I was thinkin about the Hali pick myself, and I was thinkin he might be available in the second. Then I looked at some mocks and realized how sick this draft is. There are serious ass players up to and a little after the 4th round. I saw one mock with us taking Freddie Roach in the 7th round. f**k yea I'd take that. Damn, this weekend is going to be excited...not sure where I'm going to find time to write this final paper thats due Monday, I'm just going to be watching this draft unfold obsessively

[schweinhart]

A DT and a DE....Nice.

All the talk about the 3 man fronts and Shaun Smith being the only nose makes it sound like a DT who can play nose might get some priority over a gap DT. The clock is ticking away

And the emphasis on Kiwi and Hali -- if the article is really in the loop -- makes it sound like either is in real contention at #24 if they pass on on a DB, TE or BPA. If so, I'd like to see them trade down, add a pick and take either one left. If either Maroney or DeAngelo Williams are somehow still left at #24, I could see the Colts giving up their 3rd to move up from #30 to #24. For the Jags to move up if they're after the TE of their choice, they'd have to give up their 3rd but get the Bengals 4th to make the chart value work.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I was thinkin about the Hali pick myself, and I was thinkin he might be available in the second. Then I looked at some mocks and realized how sick this draft is. There are serious ass players up to and a little after the 4th round. I saw one mock with us taking Freddie Roach in the 7th round. f**k yea I'd take that. Damn, this weekend is going to be excited...not sure where I'm going to find time to write this final paper thats due Monday, I'm just going to be watching this draft unfold obsessively

No kidding. Where would Alex Smith go this year? Honestly, I wouldn't see him above the #8 pick, and some might say closer to 15.

[TJJackson]

TJ is gonna dog him becuase he didn't run his 40 in 4.4 or lower

*shrug*

Speed is important to Marvin as well, and Tamba doesn't have it

[ArmyBengal]

Put me in the camp of wanting to put more talent around Justin Smith. We got Big Sam and if we were to add another pass rushing DE and a DT worth a d*mn I could see his numbers improving.

Unfortunately, how much impact would those new guys actually have on what Justin Smith will do "this" year. The impact would be at least another year away IMO. Justin is going to have to rely on Geathers getting better after dropping some weight during the off season and the addition of Big Sam in the middle. With Pollack and Odell firmly in the system, J. Smith could have a huge year !!!

WHODEY !!!

[Kazkal]

Or geathers staying at end rather then tackle

[HoTbOy]

I think I would rather have Geathers playing DE than DT... He didn't impress me as a full time starter, maybe the added weight slowed him down...THali maybe available in the 2nd rd...JSmith needs to get more sacks period...someone said thet never saw him beat a top tier LT and that is the truth, i would like to give him some help to see if his #'s improve...if not we can do better. there will be no excuse this year with SAdams drawing double teams...

[ArmyBengal]

Yeah, the thought of Sam drawing those double teams should not only help J. Smith, but the LB's as well.

God I can't wait to see what our defense could be this year and for years to come !!!

WHODEY !!!