Total number of Bengals' scouts...?

[Bengals44]

Does anyone know how many total scouts we have and if it is the least in the NFL? I tried to do a search but cannot find any info. on this...

Further, I think we are the only team without a offical GM (one that holds that title only), can someone confirm this as well?

Thanks

[B24]

Does anyone know how many total scouts we have and if it is the least in the NFL? I tried to do a search but cannot find any info. on this...

Further, I think we are the only team without a offical GM (one that holds that title only), can someone confirm this as well?

Thanks

From the following link, looks like we've got one full blown scout with 3 scouting consultants. Not sure how much scouting the other Player Personnel do.

http://www.bengals.com/team/FrontOffice.asp

[fattyjay]

Did anyone see the Director of Security's name? Rusty Guy!!! No joke, but that is pretty funny.

[Bengals44]

Thanks for the info. - one real scout and 3 "consultants" seems terribly thin to me.... Does anyone know what the others teams have (or even an average)..?

Also, is it correct that we are the only team without a "real" GM (one that holds only that title and is a footbal man - either has played or coached professionally)...?

[Bengals44]

Just for the heck of it I decided to look at the Colts site and found the following:

Tom Telesco ......................Director of Player Personnel

Dom Anile ................Sr. Consultant to Player Personnel

Clyde Powers ..............Director of Pro Player Personnel

David Caldwell ......................Western Regional Scout

Todd Vasvari ............................Eastern Regional Scout

Bob Ferguson ....Special Asst. to the Dir. of Player Personnel

John Becker ..............................................Area Scout

Ryan Cavanaugh ......................................Area Scout

Mark Ellenz ..............................................Area Scout

Bob Guarini..............................................Area Scout

Byron Lusby ..............................................Area Scout

Matt Terpening ..........................................Area Scout

Kevin Rogers ..............................................Pro Scout

J.W. Jordan ..................Salary Cap/Personnel Analyst

Stefani Paul ..............Player Development Administrator

Jamie Moore ..................................Scouting Assistant

Jon Shaw ........................................Scouting Assistant

Debbie Finn ......Asst. to the Director of Player Personnel

Thats 18 people involved on player development and/or scouting and 11 people strictly listed for scouting purposes... link: http://www.colts.com/images/news_photos/co...aguide_sec1.pdf

If we truely have only one full-time scout and 3 "consultants" it is shamfull and Mike should be bombared for this...

[Bengals44]

The Jags have 14 people listed as scouts - http://www.jaguars.com/team/scouts.aspx

Even the Cards have 10 straight up scouts and a total of 15 people involved in the process: http://www.azcardinals.com/team/staff.php

I'm not going to look up every team individually, but if we have one full-time scout and 3 "consultants", that basically equates to 2.5 scouts in my opinion and there is simply no excuse for that!

Add the lack of a GM and I cant see how we are even lucky enough to even be competitive...

[BengalszoneBilly]

From the following link, looks like we've got one full blown scout with 3 scouting consultants. Not sure how much scouting the other Player Personnel do.

http://www.bengals.com/team/FrontOffice.asp

One? That's it!?! You have GOT to be sh**tin' me! So Mikie Brown must think this is fully sufficient. What a total skin flint this prick is! No wonder the Bengals rarely ever seem ready for good opponents.

Oh yes...there is a reason why blame starts at the very top. 'Nuff said.

[ArmyBengal]

God D*mn you Marvin !!!

WHODEY !!!

[Chad Johnson]

Hasnt Cincinnatti had the smallest scouting corps in the league for years?

[icehole3]

I think you guys miss counted the Bengals have just as many scouts as any other NFL team.

PLAYER PERSONNEL

Pete Brown Senior Vice President - Player Personnel

Paul Brown Vice President - Player Personnel

Jim Lippincott Director of Football Operations

Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel

Greg Seamon Scout

Earl Biederman

John Cooper

Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants

Debbie LaRocco Personnel Assistant

Marvin Lewis Head Coach

Paul Alexander Assistant Head Coach/Offensive Line

Jim Anderson Running Backs

Bob Bratkowski Offensive Coordinator

Chuck Bresnahan Defensive Coordinator

Louie Cioffi Assistant Defensive Backs

Kevin Coyle Defensive Backs

Paul Guenther Assistant Special Teams/Assistant Linebackers

Jonathan Hayes Tight Ends

Jay Hayes Defensive Line

Ricky Hunley Linebackers

Chip Morton Strength and Conditioning

Ray Oliver Assistant Strength and Conditioning

Mike Sheppard Wide Receivers

Darrin Simmons Special Teams

Bob Surace Assistant Offensive Line

Ken Zampese Quarterbacks

[BengalszoneBilly]

Greg Seamon Scout

Earl Biederman Scouting Consultants

John Cooper

Bill Tobin

I see possibly FOUR on that list. Hardly as many as any other team. BTW, are you a product of the Cleveland school system? Your counting is terrible!

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I think you guys miss counted the Bengals have just as many scouts as any other NFL team.

PLAYER PERSONNEL

Pete Brown Senior Vice President - Player Personnel

Paul Brown Vice President - Player Personnel

Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel

Greg Seamon Scout

Earl Biederman

John Cooper

Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants

Erm....I dunno about that. I cut the various assistants, directors, and coaches from your list and that's what's left. I see two guys named Brown who aren't scouts, a director of player personnel (not really a scout), one actual scout, and three part-time consultants as claimed originally.

And I'll go out on a limb, but I'll guess John Cooper isn't putting in too many hours as a 'scouting consultant'. I'd never imagined it was this bad, that's just pathetic. You can't possibly scout a full draft with one actual scout and a couple of part-timers.

I'm also guessing this might explain why we seem to get a lot drafts that have two picks from the same school. With one real scout, there's only so many games he can actually see live. Or hell, even on tape.

[Jet23]

I think you guys miss counted the Bengals have just as many scouts as any other NFL team.

PLAYER PERSONNEL

Pete Brown Senior Vice President - Player Personnel

Paul Brown Vice President - Player Personnel

Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel

Greg Seamon Scout

Earl Biederman

John Cooper

Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants

Erm....I dunno about that. I cut the various assistants, directors, and coaches from your list and that's what's left. I see two guys named Brown who aren't scouts, a director of player personnel (not really a scout), one actual scout, and three part-time consultants as claimed originally.

And I'll go out on a limb, but I'll guess John Cooper isn't putting in too many hours as a 'scouting consultant'. I'd never imagined it was this bad, that's just pathetic. You can't possibly scout a full draft with one actual scout and a couple of part-timers.

I'm also guessing this might explain why we seem to get a lot drafts that have two picks from the same school. With one real scout, there's only so many games he can actually see live. Or hell, even on tape.

I promise you, there will be a lot more scouting going on in Bengalland. Mike upgraded to the Dirctv. Our scout now gets way more HD channels than ever before. He can even take advantage of the NFL Ticket for the first part of next year. I smell Super Bowl!

[agreen_112]

I think you guys miss counted the Bengals have just as many scouts as any other NFL team.

PLAYER PERSONNEL

Pete Brown Senior Vice President - Player Personnel

Paul Brown Vice President - Player Personnel

Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel

Greg Seamon Scout

Earl Biederman

John Cooper

Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants

Erm....I dunno about that. I cut the various assistants, directors, and coaches from your list and that's what's left. I see two guys named Brown who aren't scouts, a director of player personnel (not really a scout), one actual scout, and three part-time consultants as claimed originally.

And I'll go out on a limb, but I'll guess John Cooper isn't putting in too many hours as a 'scouting consultant'. I'd never imagined it was this bad, that's just pathetic. You can't possibly scout a full draft with one actual scout and a couple of part-timers.

I'm also guessing this might explain why we seem to get a lot drafts that have two picks from the same school. With one real scout, there's only so many games he can actually see live. Or hell, even on tape.

I promise you, there will be a lot more scouting going on in Bengalland. Mike upgraded to the Dirctv. Our scout now gets way more HD channels than ever before. He can even take advantage of the NFL Ticket for the first part of next year. I smell Super Bowl!

[icehole3]

Greg Seamon Scout

Earl Biederman Scouting Consultants

John Cooper

Bill Tobin

I see possibly FOUR on that list. Hardly as many as any other team. BTW, are you a product of the Cleveland school system? Your counting is terrible!

It was supposed to be a joke, Mike Brown has always said that the coaching staff does the scouting

[Walrus]

I think you guys miss counted the Bengals have just as many scouts as any other NFL team.

PLAYER PERSONNEL

Pete Brown Senior Vice President - Player Personnel

Paul Brown Vice President - Player Personnel

Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel

Greg Seamon Scout

Earl Biederman

John Cooper

Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants

Erm....I dunno about that. I cut the various assistants, directors, and coaches from your list and that's what's left. I see two guys named Brown who aren't scouts, a director of player personnel (not really a scout), one actual scout, and three part-time consultants as claimed originally.

And I'll go out on a limb, but I'll guess John Cooper isn't putting in too many hours as a 'scouting consultant'. I'd never imagined it was this bad, that's just pathetic. You can't possibly scout a full draft with one actual scout and a couple of part-timers.

I'm also guessing this might explain why we seem to get a lot drafts that have two picks from the same school. With one real scout, there's only so many games he can actually see live. Or hell, even on tape.

I'm a little surprised that this comes as such a surprise to so many regulars here. The tiny scouting staff has only been discussed ad nauseum among Bengals fans for years.

Anyways, Marvin has made it clear many times over that he is comfortable with leaving a lot of the scouting to himself and the coaches. Also, no GM means he has more control, and less politics, which I'm sure has its advantages.

I personally agree with everyone who says we could use more scouts. Seems like a no-brainer. But I have to take Marvin at his word and I don't think our (lack of) scouting accounts for the fact that we have managed to draft talented guys as much as any team out there. Aside from two guys whose bad character has cost us dearly, our biggest problem is keeping players healthy. And in my opinion, that's where fans should be calling Mike Brown out.

Look at the Colts' medical staff:

MEDICAL STAFF

Hunter Smith, Head Athletic Trainer

Dave Hammer, Associate Head Athletic Trainer

Erin Barill, Director of Rehabilitation

Dave Walston, Assistant Athletic Trainer

Bryant Baugh, Assistant Athletic Trainer

Arthur C. Rettig, MD, Orthopedic Surgeon

Gary Misamore, MD, Orthopedic Surgeon

Tom Klootwyk, MD, Orthopedic Surgeon

Doug Robertson, MD, Physician

Pat Kersey, MD, Physician

Stacey Conrad, DC, Team Chiropractor

Compare that to the Bengals medical staff (if you blink, you'll miss 'em -- apparently they're part of the "Front Office"):

Paul Sparling, Athletic Trainer

Nick Cosgray, Director of Rehabilitation/Assistant Athletic Trainer

Brian Dykhuizen, Assistant Athletic Trainer

Would it be expensive to employ 5 trainers, 5 MDs and a chiropractor? You betcha. Would it be worth every penny in money wasted on chronically injured players? Yep. How good would Peter Warrick have been if he had better medical care? Whose career will be derailed by the next misdiagnosis? Chris Perry? A Brooks? Irons? Tab? Kilmer? Levi? Willie? Forget a GM, a "bubble" and more scouts -- not to mention those misguided fans who insist he doesn't pay his players well -- this is where Mike's tight wad hurts the most.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'm a little surprised that this comes as such a surprise to so many regulars here. The tiny scouting staff has only been discussed ad nauseum among Bengals fans for years.

Small is one thing, but one? ONE!?!?! I figured there was maybe 5, something like that. ONE GUY!!!!

Anyways, Marvin has made it clear many times over that he is comfortable with leaving a lot of the scouting to himself and the coaches. Also, no GM means he has more control, and less politics, which I'm sure has its advantages.

Yeah, but the coach/GM thing in the NFL almost never works. Most successful coaches who aren't egomaniacs will admit that it's two full-time jobs being GM and Coach. And the staff doesn't have time to do scouting too. I'm sure they like the control, but the lack of information can't be good.

Aside from two guys whose bad character has cost us dearly, our biggest problem is keeping players healthy. And in my opinion, that's where fans should be calling Mike Brown out.

Can't argue there. Spending $100M/year on player salaries and skimping on the doctors ain't smart.

[The PatternMaster]

This is a problem and Mike Brown needs to do something about it...Let's look at the facts, 31 NFL teams follow a model that employs numerous scouts and medical personnel people, while the one team that has had one winning season since 1990 doesn't have a GM or a real scouting or medical dept. and we constantly have either draft bust or guys with misdiagnosed injuries that take forever to heal or both. .....

It's like Mike Brown doesn't understand that in order to make money you have to spend a lil bit first, it's called investing in infrastructure. Mike Brown is like some African dictator who receives money from the IMF or World Bank and pockets it instead of using it to improve their country. This is embaressing to say the least.

[Jet23]

This is a problem and Mike Brown needs to do something about it...Let's look at the facts, 31 NFL teams follow a model that employs numerous scouts and medical personnel people, while the one team that has had one winning season since 1990 doesn't have a GM or a real scouting or medical dept. and we constantly have either draft bust or guys with misdiagnosed injuries that take forever to heal or both. .....

It's like Mike Brown doesn't understand that in order to make money you have to spend a lil bit first, it's called investing in infrastructure. Mike Brown is like some African dictator who receives money from the IMF or World Bank and pockets it instead of using it to improve their country. This is embaressing to say the least.

The NFL mandates that each NFL team spends a certain amount of money on player salaries. If the NFL does not make similar demands on scouts, medical staff... SOP will continue his cheap a$$ ways until the fans stop buying his crap product. Yet the Mike Brown apologists continue to believe that everyone is operating on an even playing field. It's like the commercial where a marching band member turns the wrong way on national tv. During a phone conversation, her friend tries to cheer her up by proclaiming 'you did great, but why did everyone else screw up'. 31 teams greatly outspend Brown on football and medical personnel, but the MBA's would like you to believe that everyone else is stupid for spending the additional money. Where are we here; 92 & 169? Cincinnati fans are far more loyal than SOP deserves.

[Bengals44]

I couldnt resist and looked at the entire AFC and this is what I found (I am listing only those with "scout" in their title, many teams list 3-7 more people under "scouting" as player personnel development and the like, so these numbers are really streamlined):

Bills - ? (couldn find the numbers)

Broncos- 11

Browns - 11

Chargers - 11

Cheifs - 8

Colts - 11

Dolphins - 13

Jags - 10

Jets - ?

Pats - ?

Raiders - 6

Ravens - 8

Steelers - 8

Texans - 14

Titans - 10

That is an average of 10.08 per team. Virtually every scout I counted was a straight-up scout, not a consultant or assistant... We have one full-time scout and 3 consultants, that translates to 2.5 scouts or 7.5 less than the avg. NFL team...

I agree with Walrus on the Medical staff as well. I have been complaining about that all year to my buddy (another Bengals fan in Ft Wayne) - the fact that we are always injured and there must be a reason for it. We have been injured more than most the past several years, everyone has injuries, but 5 LB's on the IR is just an example of how rediculous ours have been. Now I see we are skimpy there as well.

Not having a GM is huge as it takes way to much time away from the coaching staff (along with the obvious scouting they must do as well). Every team needs a football man (former player or coach) to handle most of these duties so that the coaches can concentrate mainly on the X's and O's.

I didnt realize how bad it truely was until now, I mean these numbers are staggering - I wish there was a way we could start a petition or something and send it to the NFL and Mike himself 'cause I am truely frustrated to no end!

[Bengals44]

Well I think I have lost it! I actually sat here and e-mailed every Bengals starter at NFLplayers.com, 5 sports-related characters at WLW, Greg Hobson, the enquirer and a few more regarding this... I dont normally get this crazy, but I cannot believe how rediculous this is and I am fuming! I am married and have two boys, so my time is very important to me, but I feel someohow we need to make this public and make Mike look like a fool...

Does anyone know if we can make a petition or anything else we can do to try and force the issue a bit?

I mean I know Mike is a business man and would probably pay no attenetion to anything other than his bottom line, but I have invested my soul in the Benagls every since I can remember and I cant just sit here and say nothing - damn I'm pissed!

[COB]

Employing 2.5 scouts when everyone else has like 10? Audacious. Mike Brown has major balls. To just ignore this essential part of his business, and on top of it, to use "player personnel" as a payroll hideout to stash gravy-training relatives is the height of arrogance.

I applaud you Bengals44. Maybe one of those media outlets will report on this bulls**t and force Mike Brown to meander out of the 1940s and hire some scouts. How expensive can it be? I doubt all those scouts on other teams' payrolls are all full time. Can't be that big an investment, can it?

[Bengals44]

Exactly!

I just tried to leave Bill (Willie) Cunningham (WLW) a voice mail, but his VM is full at this time. I plan to try again on Monday, Willie at least has the balls to say what is on his mind, so I figure it is worth a shot...!

[Kazkal]

But remember guys it's marvin's fault!

[Bengals44]

But remember guys it's marvin's fault!

I assume that is sarcasm....