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Total number of Bengals' scouts...?

#1 User is offline   Bengals44 

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 05:29 PM

Does anyone know how many total scouts we have and if it is the least in the NFL? I tried to do a search but cannot find any info. on this...

Further, I think we are the only team without a offical GM (one that holds that title only), can someone confirm this as well?

Thanks
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#2 User is offline   B24 

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 05:47 PM

View PostBengals44, on Dec 6 2007, 05:29 PM, said:

Does anyone know how many total scouts we have and if it is the least in the NFL? I tried to do a search but cannot find any info. on this...

Further, I think we are the only team without a offical GM (one that holds that title only), can someone confirm this as well?

Thanks

From the following link, looks like we've got one full blown scout with 3 scouting consultants. Not sure how much scouting the other Player Personnel do.
http://www.bengals.c...FrontOffice.asp
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#3 User is offline   fattyjay 

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 05:56 PM

Did anyone see the Director of Security's name? Rusty Guy!!! No joke, but that is pretty funny.
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#4 User is offline   Bengals44 

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 06:21 PM

Thanks for the info. - one real scout and 3 "consultants" seems terribly thin to me.... Does anyone know what the others teams have (or even an average)..?

Also, is it correct that we are the only team without a "real" GM (one that holds only that title and is a footbal man - either has played or coached professionally)...?
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#5 User is offline   Bengals44 

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 06:31 PM

Just for the heck of it I decided to look at the Colts site and found the following:

Tom Telesco ......................Director of Player Personnel
Dom Anile ................Sr. Consultant to Player Personnel
Clyde Powers ..............Director of Pro Player Personnel
David Caldwell ......................Western Regional Scout
Todd Vasvari ............................Eastern Regional Scout
Bob Ferguson ....Special Asst. to the Dir. of Player Personnel
John Becker ..............................................Area Scout
Ryan Cavanaugh ......................................Area Scout
Mark Ellenz ..............................................Area Scout
Bob Guarini..............................................Area Scout
Byron Lusby ..............................................Area Scout
Matt Terpening ..........................................Area Scout
Kevin Rogers ..............................................Pro Scout
J.W. Jordan ..................Salary Cap/Personnel Analyst
Stefani Paul ..............Player Development Administrator
Jamie Moore ..................................Scouting Assistant
Jon Shaw ........................................Scouting Assistant
Debbie Finn ......Asst. to the Director of Player Personnel

Thats 18 people involved on player development and/or scouting and 11 people strictly listed for scouting purposes... link: http://www.colts.com/images/news_photos/co...aguide_sec1.pdf


If we truely have only one full-time scout and 3 "consultants" it is shamfull and Mike should be bombared for this...
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#6 User is offline   Bengals44 

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 07:25 PM

The Jags have 14 people listed as scouts - http://www.jaguars.c...eam/scouts.aspx

Even the Cards have 10 straight up scouts and a total of 15 people involved in the process: http://www.azcardina.../team/staff.php

I'm not going to look up every team individually, but if we have one full-time scout and 3 "consultants", that basically equates to 2.5 scouts in my opinion and there is simply no excuse for that!

Add the lack of a GM and I cant see how we are even lucky enough to even be competitive...
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#7 User is offline   Bengalszone Billy 

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 09:17 PM

View PostB24, on Dec 6 2007, 03:47 PM, said:

From the following link, looks like we've got one full blown scout with 3 scouting consultants. Not sure how much scouting the other Player Personnel do.
http://www.bengals.c...FrontOffice.asp

One? That's it!?! :blink:/> You have GOT to be sh**tin' me! :o/> So Mikie Brown must think this is fully sufficient. What a total skin flint this prick is! No wonder the Bengals rarely ever seem ready for good opponents.

Oh yes...there is a reason why blame starts at the very top. 'Nuff said. <_</>
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#8 User is offline   ArmyBengal 

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 10:20 PM

God D*mn you Marvin !!!

WHODEY !!!
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#9 User is offline   BK28 

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 10:36 PM

Hasnt Cincinnatti had the smallest scouting corps in the league for years?
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#10 User is offline   icehole3 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 06:45 AM

I think you guys miss counted the Bengals have just as many scouts as any other NFL team.

PLAYER PERSONNEL
Pete Brown Senior Vice President - Player Personnel
Paul Brown Vice President - Player Personnel
Jim Lippincott Director of Football Operations
Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel
Greg Seamon Scout
Earl Biederman
John Cooper
Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants
Debbie LaRocco Personnel Assistant
Marvin Lewis Head Coach
Paul Alexander Assistant Head Coach/Offensive Line
Jim Anderson Running Backs
Bob Bratkowski Offensive Coordinator
Chuck Bresnahan Defensive Coordinator
Louie Cioffi Assistant Defensive Backs
Kevin Coyle Defensive Backs
Paul Guenther Assistant Special Teams/Assistant Linebackers
Jonathan Hayes Tight Ends
Jay Hayes Defensive Line
Ricky Hunley Linebackers
Chip Morton Strength and Conditioning
Ray Oliver Assistant Strength and Conditioning
Mike Sheppard Wide Receivers
Darrin Simmons Special Teams
Bob Surace Assistant Offensive Line
Ken Zampese Quarterbacks
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#11 User is offline   Bengalszone Billy 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 09:21 AM

View Posticehole3, on Dec 7 2007, 04:45 AM, said:

Greg Seamon Scout
Earl Biederman Scouting Consultants
John Cooper
Bill Tobin

I see possibly FOUR on that list. Hardly as many as any other team. BTW, are you a product of the Cleveland school system? Your counting is terrible! :lol:/>
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#12 User is offline   CheeselandBengal 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 09:23 AM

View Posticehole3, on Dec 7 2007, 06:45 AM, said:

I think you guys miss counted the Bengals have just as many scouts as any other NFL team.

PLAYER PERSONNEL
Pete Brown Senior Vice President - Player Personnel
Paul Brown Vice President - Player Personnel
Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel
Greg Seamon Scout
Earl Biederman
John Cooper
Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants




Erm....I dunno about that. I cut the various assistants, directors, and coaches from your list and that's what's left. I see two guys named Brown who aren't scouts, a director of player personnel (not really a scout), one actual scout, and three part-time consultants as claimed originally.

And I'll go out on a limb, but I'll guess John Cooper isn't putting in too many hours as a 'scouting consultant'. I'd never imagined it was this bad, that's just pathetic. You can't possibly scout a full draft with one actual scout and a couple of part-timers.

I'm also guessing this might explain why we seem to get a lot drafts that have two picks from the same school. With one real scout, there's only so many games he can actually see live. Or hell, even on tape.
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#13 User is offline   Jet23 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 10:06 AM

View PostDC_Bengals_Fan, on Dec 7 2007, 09:23 AM, said:

View Posticehole3, on Dec 7 2007, 06:45 AM, said:

I think you guys miss counted the Bengals have just as many scouts as any other NFL team.

PLAYER PERSONNEL
Pete Brown Senior Vice President - Player Personnel
Paul Brown Vice President - Player Personnel
Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel
Greg Seamon Scout
Earl Biederman
John Cooper
Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants




Erm....I dunno about that. I cut the various assistants, directors, and coaches from your list and that's what's left. I see two guys named Brown who aren't scouts, a director of player personnel (not really a scout), one actual scout, and three part-time consultants as claimed originally.

And I'll go out on a limb, but I'll guess John Cooper isn't putting in too many hours as a 'scouting consultant'. I'd never imagined it was this bad, that's just pathetic. You can't possibly scout a full draft with one actual scout and a couple of part-timers.

I'm also guessing this might explain why we seem to get a lot drafts that have two picks from the same school. With one real scout, there's only so many games he can actually see live. Or hell, even on tape.



I promise you, there will be a lot more scouting going on in Bengalland. Mike upgraded to the Dirctv. Our scout now gets way more HD channels than ever before. He can even take advantage of the NFL Ticket for the first part of next year. I smell Super Bowl!
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#14 User is offline   Gizzle 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 10:51 AM

View PostJet23, on Dec 7 2007, 10:06 AM, said:

View PostDC_Bengals_Fan, on Dec 7 2007, 09:23 AM, said:

View Posticehole3, on Dec 7 2007, 06:45 AM, said:

I think you guys miss counted the Bengals have just as many scouts as any other NFL team.

PLAYER PERSONNEL
Pete Brown Senior Vice President - Player Personnel
Paul Brown Vice President - Player Personnel
Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel
Greg Seamon Scout
Earl Biederman
John Cooper
Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants




Erm....I dunno about that. I cut the various assistants, directors, and coaches from your list and that's what's left. I see two guys named Brown who aren't scouts, a director of player personnel (not really a scout), one actual scout, and three part-time consultants as claimed originally.

And I'll go out on a limb, but I'll guess John Cooper isn't putting in too many hours as a 'scouting consultant'. I'd never imagined it was this bad, that's just pathetic. You can't possibly scout a full draft with one actual scout and a couple of part-timers.

I'm also guessing this might explain why we seem to get a lot drafts that have two picks from the same school. With one real scout, there's only so many games he can actually see live. Or hell, even on tape.



I promise you, there will be a lot more scouting going on in Bengalland. Mike upgraded to the Dirctv. Our scout now gets way more HD channels than ever before. He can even take advantage of the NFL Ticket for the first part of next year. I smell Super Bowl!


:lmao:/> :lmao:/> :lmao:/>
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#15 User is offline   icehole3 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 12:12 PM

View PostBengalszone Billy, on Dec 7 2007, 10:21 AM, said:

View Posticehole3, on Dec 7 2007, 04:45 AM, said:

Greg Seamon Scout
Earl Biederman Scouting Consultants
John Cooper
Bill Tobin

I see possibly FOUR on that list. Hardly as many as any other team. BTW, are you a product of the Cleveland school system? Your counting is terrible! :lol:/>


It was supposed to be a joke, Mike Brown has always said that the coaching staff does the scouting
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#16 User is offline   Walrus 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 01:36 PM

View PostDC_Bengals_Fan, on Dec 7 2007, 09:23 AM, said:

View Posticehole3, on Dec 7 2007, 06:45 AM, said:

I think you guys miss counted the Bengals have just as many scouts as any other NFL team.

PLAYER PERSONNEL
Pete Brown Senior Vice President - Player Personnel
Paul Brown Vice President - Player Personnel
Duke Tobin Director of Player Personnel
Greg Seamon Scout
Earl Biederman
John Cooper
Bill Tobin Scouting Consultants




Erm....I dunno about that. I cut the various assistants, directors, and coaches from your list and that's what's left. I see two guys named Brown who aren't scouts, a director of player personnel (not really a scout), one actual scout, and three part-time consultants as claimed originally.

And I'll go out on a limb, but I'll guess John Cooper isn't putting in too many hours as a 'scouting consultant'. I'd never imagined it was this bad, that's just pathetic. You can't possibly scout a full draft with one actual scout and a couple of part-timers.

I'm also guessing this might explain why we seem to get a lot drafts that have two picks from the same school. With one real scout, there's only so many games he can actually see live. Or hell, even on tape.

I'm a little surprised that this comes as such a surprise to so many regulars here. The tiny scouting staff has only been discussed ad nauseum among Bengals fans for years.

Anyways, Marvin has made it clear many times over that he is comfortable with leaving a lot of the scouting to himself and the coaches. Also, no GM means he has more control, and less politics, which I'm sure has its advantages.

I personally agree with everyone who says we could use more scouts. Seems like a no-brainer. But I have to take Marvin at his word and I don't think our (lack of) scouting accounts for the fact that we have managed to draft talented guys as much as any team out there. Aside from two guys whose bad character has cost us dearly, our biggest problem is keeping players healthy. And in my opinion, that's where fans should be calling Mike Brown out.

Look at the Colts' medical staff:

MEDICAL STAFF
Hunter Smith, Head Athletic Trainer
Dave Hammer, Associate Head Athletic Trainer
Erin Barill, Director of Rehabilitation
Dave Walston, Assistant Athletic Trainer
Bryant Baugh, Assistant Athletic Trainer
Arthur C. Rettig, MD, Orthopedic Surgeon
Gary Misamore, MD, Orthopedic Surgeon
Tom Klootwyk, MD, Orthopedic Surgeon
Doug Robertson, MD, Physician
Pat Kersey, MD, Physician
Stacey Conrad, DC, Team Chiropractor


Compare that to the Bengals medical staff (if you blink, you'll miss 'em -- apparently they're part of the "Front Office"):

Paul Sparling, Athletic Trainer
Nick Cosgray, Director of Rehabilitation/Assistant Athletic Trainer
Brian Dykhuizen, Assistant Athletic Trainer

Would it be expensive to employ 5 trainers, 5 MDs and a chiropractor? You betcha. Would it be worth every penny in money wasted on chronically injured players? Yep. How good would Peter Warrick have been if he had better medical care? Whose career will be derailed by the next misdiagnosis? Chris Perry? A Brooks? Irons? Tab? Kilmer? Levi? Willie? Forget a GM, a "bubble" and more scouts -- not to mention those misguided fans who insist he doesn't pay his players well -- this is where Mike's tight wad hurts the most.
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#17 User is offline   CheeselandBengal 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 02:18 PM

View Postwalrus, on Dec 7 2007, 01:36 PM, said:

I'm a little surprised that this comes as such a surprise to so many regulars here. The tiny scouting staff has only been discussed ad nauseum among Bengals fans for years.


Small is one thing, but one? ONE!?!?! I figured there was maybe 5, something like that. ONE GUY!!!!

View Postwalrus, on Dec 7 2007, 01:36 PM, said:

Anyways, Marvin has made it clear many times over that he is comfortable with leaving a lot of the scouting to himself and the coaches. Also, no GM means he has more control, and less politics, which I'm sure has its advantages.

Yeah, but the coach/GM thing in the NFL almost never works. Most successful coaches who aren't egomaniacs will admit that it's two full-time jobs being GM and Coach. And the staff doesn't have time to do scouting too. I'm sure they like the control, but the lack of information can't be good.

View Postwalrus, on Dec 7 2007, 01:36 PM, said:

Aside from two guys whose bad character has cost us dearly, our biggest problem is keeping players healthy. And in my opinion, that's where fans should be calling Mike Brown out.

Can't argue there. Spending $100M/year on player salaries and skimping on the doctors ain't smart.
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#18 User is offline   The PatternMaster 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 04:13 PM

This is a problem and Mike Brown needs to do something about it...Let's look at the facts, 31 NFL teams follow a model that employs numerous scouts and medical personnel people, while the one team that has had one winning season since 1990 doesn't have a GM or a real scouting or medical dept. and we constantly have either draft bust or guys with misdiagnosed injuries that take forever to heal or both. <_</> .....


It's like Mike Brown doesn't understand that in order to make money you have to spend a lil bit first, it's called investing in infrastructure. Mike Brown is like some African dictator who receives money from the IMF or World Bank and pockets it instead of using it to improve their country. This is embaressing to say the least.
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#19 User is offline   Jet23 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 05:09 PM

View PostThe PatternMaster, on Dec 7 2007, 04:13 PM, said:

This is a problem and Mike Brown needs to do something about it...Let's look at the facts, 31 NFL teams follow a model that employs numerous scouts and medical personnel people, while the one team that has had one winning season since 1990 doesn't have a GM or a real scouting or medical dept. and we constantly have either draft bust or guys with misdiagnosed injuries that take forever to heal or both. <_</> .....


It's like Mike Brown doesn't understand that in order to make money you have to spend a lil bit first, it's called investing in infrastructure. Mike Brown is like some African dictator who receives money from the IMF or World Bank and pockets it instead of using it to improve their country. This is embaressing to say the least.



The NFL mandates that each NFL team spends a certain amount of money on player salaries. If the NFL does not make similar demands on scouts, medical staff... SOP will continue his cheap a$$ ways until the fans stop buying his crap product. Yet the Mike Brown apologists continue to believe that everyone is operating on an even playing field. It's like the commercial where a marching band member turns the wrong way on national tv. During a phone conversation, her friend tries to cheer her up by proclaiming 'you did great, but why did everyone else screw up'. 31 teams greatly outspend Brown on football and medical personnel, but the MBA's would like you to believe that everyone else is stupid for spending the additional money. Where are we here; 92 & 169? Cincinnati fans are far more loyal than SOP deserves.
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#20 User is offline   Bengals44 

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 06:35 PM

I couldnt resist and looked at the entire AFC and this is what I found (I am listing only those with "scout" in their title, many teams list 3-7 more people under "scouting" as player personnel development and the like, so these numbers are really streamlined):

Bills - ? (couldn find the numbers)
Broncos- 11
Browns - 11
Chargers - 11
Cheifs - 8
Colts - 11
Dolphins - 13
Jags - 10
Jets - ?
Pats - ?
Raiders - 6
Ravens - 8
Steelers - 8
Texans - 14
Titans - 10

That is an average of 10.08 per team. Virtually every scout I counted was a straight-up scout, not a consultant or assistant... We have one full-time scout and 3 consultants, that translates to 2.5 scouts or 7.5 less than the avg. NFL team...

I agree with Walrus on the Medical staff as well. I have been complaining about that all year to my buddy (another Bengals fan in Ft Wayne) - the fact that we are always injured and there must be a reason for it. We have been injured more than most the past several years, everyone has injuries, but 5 LB's on the IR is just an example of how rediculous ours have been. Now I see we are skimpy there as well.

Not having a GM is huge as it takes way to much time away from the coaching staff (along with the obvious scouting they must do as well). Every team needs a football man (former player or coach) to handle most of these duties so that the coaches can concentrate mainly on the X's and O's.

I didnt realize how bad it truely was until now, I mean these numbers are staggering - I wish there was a way we could start a petition or something and send it to the NFL and Mike himself 'cause I am truely frustrated to no end!
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