Why can't Marvin fix this defense?

[schweinhart]

Well, remember too that the starting point was the 456 points given up in 2002.

Yeah and I can remember Mike Vick and the Dirty Birds getting like what seemed 85 on prime time.

Weren't them the days.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

So Marvin has brought in a whole new defense sans 3 players and we are still attributing the recent defensive problems to past regimes and players??? I don't understand that logic I guess.

This team gave up 31 points a game the last what - 8 weeks - and somehow that's promising or acceptable? They gave up 30 odd points less than last year, despite facing the absolute worst offenses in the entire NFL most of the season and somehow that's a big positive?

The defense is a major issue - they had nowhere to go but up - but yet they've really just taken steps backwards as a whole, while the freak turnover #'s just sort of masked their root problems.

I am not questioning Marvin's defensive pedigree - I just expect him to put it to good use at some point and see some changes.

Some of you guys should be politicans or lawyers the way you spin and make excuses for this team's lack of defense and general issues - the Indy and KC fans have been complaining just the same the last several years.

I think it's perfectly fine and fair if people want to belly ache about the defense - it's totally justified - if some of you guys don't like it and think without much change they're on their way to excellence - then I guess we'll just see how it pans out!

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Ok Shula, perhaps you know steak, but YES, the recent defensive problems link back to past regimes and players. Perhaps you don't get it, but WE LACK DEPTH AND QUALITY VETERAN PLAYERS ON DEFENSE. THE DEFENSE FAILS MAINLY BECAUSE OF INEXPERIENCE.

Thank you, play again.

[skyline]

So Marvin has brought in a whole new defense sans 3 players and we are still attributing the recent defensive problems to past regimes and players??? I don't understand that logic I guess.

This team gave up 31 points a game the last what - 8 weeks - and somehow that's promising or acceptable? They gave up 30 odd points less than last year, despite facing the absolute worst offenses in the entire NFL most of the season and somehow that's a big positive?

The defense is a major issue - they had nowhere to go but up - but yet they've really just taken steps backwards as a whole, while the freak turnover #'s just sort of masked their root problems.

I am not questioning Marvin's defensive pedigree - I just expect him to put it to good use at some point and see some changes.

Some of you guys should be politicans or lawyers the way you spin and make excuses for this team's lack of defense and general issues - the Indy and KC fans have been complaining just the same the last several years.

I think it's perfectly fine and fair if people want to belly ache about the defense - it's totally justified - if some of you guys don't like it and think without much change they're on their way to excellence - then I guess we'll just see how it pans out!

I'm certainly not going to say that this year's defensive performance was acceptable. I just feel like the expectations placed on Lewis this soon are a bit unrealistic. When you scrap an entire team and start over, you can't just magically fix everything at once. It comes in steps. I'd say the steps he's made so far have been pretty dramatic, and the results (overall) are hard to argue with. Keep in mind I'm talking about an entire team here, not just the D.

The defense is on it's way.

[Interceptor]

I was about to say something, but it's best that I shut up and be patient. A lot of work yet to be done on the off season. I hope they get big and fast defensive line.

[HairOnFire]

Definitely a good point. The Bengals were 9th in yards allowed in 2001.

11th, actually...

http://www.profootball-reference.com/teams/cin2001.htm

That performance, IMHO, also had a lot to do with the fact that the offense was 31 out of 31 in terms of scoring; opponents generally didn't need to put up more than 17 or so to beat us, so once they did they would just go into clock-killing mode.

The other point I would make is that, despite all the griping about the D, the Bengals have improved in the only department that really counts during the Marvin era: points allowed...

2003: 384

2004: 372

2005: 350

After watching what seemed to be total hemorraghing for the 2nd half of this season, those baby steps in the pts. allowed department over the past 3 years don't sit well.

Imagine how I feel. I've argued all season long, even when the Bengals were undefeated, that overplaying the oppositions run game was a brewing recipe for disaster. And that's exactly what the Bengal's defense produced for the 2nd half of the season, a series of defensive disasters. And most importantly....a fresh defensive disaster in the playoff game. Sheesh, after watching the Steelers exploit the Bengals with gadget plays...how many people care now that the Bengals held the Steelers to 53 yards rushing thru 3 quarters? What mattered most is that the Bengals once again allowed a QB to operate under little pressure and complete a very high percentage of his passes.

Moving on, I'm not discouraged at all by the Bengals late draft position. They'll get a very good player in the 1st round and the draft is very deep at MOST of the positions of greatest need. What interests me most is if in free agency they can target and sign one true impact player for their defense. Coupled with the players added in the draft and the expected improvement from players already on their roster I think the addition of a single FA would allow this defense to take a major step forward quicker than most believe.

[skyline]

Definitely a good point. The Bengals were 9th in yards allowed in 2001.

11th, actually...

http://www.profootball-reference.com/teams/cin2001.htm

That performance, IMHO, also had a lot to do with the fact that the offense was 31 out of 31 in terms of scoring; opponents generally didn't need to put up more than 17 or so to beat us, so once they did they would just go into clock-killing mode.

The other point I would make is that, despite all the griping about the D, the Bengals have improved in the only department that really counts during the Marvin era: points allowed...

2003: 384

2004: 372

2005: 350

After watching what seemed to be total hemorraghing for the 2nd half of this season, those baby steps in the pts. allowed department over the past 3 years don't sit well.

Coupled with the players added in the draft and the expected improvement from players already on their roster I think the addition of a single FA would allow this defense to take a major step forward quicker than most believe.

I'm right there with you. I'm a strong supporter of building through the draft and developing from within. Still, I'd love to see us sign 1 PROVEN difference-maker this offseason.

[HairOnFire]

Some of you guys should be politicans or lawyers the way you spin and make excuses for this team's lack of defense and general issues - the Indy and KC fans have been complaining just the same the last several years.

Sorry, I don't see it as excuse making. All season long there has been a healthy debate about what the root problem of this defense was, run or pass defense, and we're still debating it.

The logical conclusion is that help is needed on both fronts, and I doubt that point would be argued very long. But how quickly improvement can be realistically expected depends largely on which weakness you feel is greater.

[TecmoFever]

I do think that it's amazing that anything positive can be said about the defense after what happened in the second half of the season. We were DEAD LAST in Points Allowed/Game in the last nine games of the season.

That being said, I can see why people display a bit of optimism when looking at the future of the defense. We FINALLY have the thought of some playmakers in Thurman and Pollack. Couple those two guys with Simmons & L. Johnson, and we have a decent LB corps. We have a nice secondary, assuming that Madieu comes back nicely and we get a decent safety to go with him. Looking at those two parts of the defense makes one think that we are headed in the right direction. It may even remind some of the progression that took place in Indianapolis, where Tony Dungy assembled a corps of young and fast players (though the results didn't come until this year).

The parallels with Indy stop, however, when you look at the D-Line. Our D-Line reminds me of the Reds starting pitching rotation--lots of 5th starters in my opinion. I don't mind Shaun Smith as a role player. I don't mind Geathers as a speed rusher on passing situations. I don't mind Justin Smith as an unnoticed starter that would line up on the other side of a difference maker. The problem is that these are probably our best guys instead of our role players. Compare our D-Line to Indy's and you immediately see where the problem is. They say that football games are won in the trenches (especially playoff games). I HOPE that we can do something, either through FA or the draft, to shore up those trenches on D.

I'm still optimistic, though, because we are only a few players away. I think a difference maker on the line and a steady safety to help Madieu would really go a long way with the pieces that are already in place. The problem to me is, how are we going to get a difference-making D-Lineman? I haven't noticed any in the FA List, and we may draft a little low to get one in the draft. (I did see the Defensive End from Penn State (Nali?) fall to us in a mock draft somewhere, though that's so far away, it's almost a joke.)

Somebody needs to tell me how we can make a few reasonable changes this year, and come out looking like a top-12 defense.

[HoosierCat]

I do think that it's amazing that anything positive can be said about the defense after what happened in the second half of the season. We were DEAD LAST in Points Allowed/Game in the last nine games of the season.

Perhaps, but that takes into account some rather flukey games, like the KC one where we rested our starters and the Balti game where our supposedly bad D held them scoreless until going to sleep in the 3rd after the O rolled up 34 points. That doesn't worry me a great deal.

Somebody needs to tell me how we can make a few reasonable changes this year, and come out looking like a top-12 defense.

Well, you hit a few of the issues yourself. Geathers, for example. He got promoted to a starting role after Duane Clemons got suspended for a drug violation for the first 4 games. And he kept the starting gig even after Duane came back. Last season, Clemons had 49 tackles and 6.5 sacks, while Jumpy Jr. had 16 tackles and three sacks. That's 65 and 9.5 combined. In '06, Geathers had 33 tackles and 3.5 sacks as a starter, while Clemons pocketed 12 tackles and 2 sacks. 45 and 5.5 combined.

There's part of our missing pass rush right there. If we are going to keep both these guys we need to switch that back.

Getting Madieu back will obviously help. In those first 3 games, great defensive efforts all, he had 15 tackles, a pick, and a pass defensed.

Then there's Shaun Smith. I credit him with a big part of that improved run defense in the latter part of the season. He was certainly more effective up front than B-Rob. But all a better run defense, combined with no pass rush, did was to expose our secondary, which could be beaten just about everywhere but O'Neal.

If Clemons stays, I think you can get a pretty big improvement just by shoring up the secondary (a safety or corner). OTOH, if he's going, Geathers isn't the answer, and we need to find a pass rushing threat off the end. Ideally, I'd love for them to snag, say, John Abraham, and then shore up the secondary in the first round, but I fear I'm dreaming there.

[Kazkal]

We need to bring in a new D-line coach

Postions were ok in IMO

I think defense were were ok on everything besides DT & SS...a pass rush spec end woulden't hurt but I think we have that in pollack...what we really need is a new DL coach

LB we have preatty good depth and landon will probbley replace simmons this or next year but simmons will make for decent depth(mybe try reach in rnd 4)

CB's I think should be adressed next year for torys replacement(in 1st rnd)

[Stripes]

We need to bring in a new D-line coach

Krumrie is available!

I agree for the most part, Kaz. I think a new tackle would work wonders for this defense, and the new safety would be the final piece.