The Blame Game

[HairOnFire]

Well, y'know, you can let the dog poop lie there. Or you can sculpt it into a pretty statue...but it's still poop. I mean, c'mon, you've hammered endlessly on Justin Smith. Did you really think that moving him from one side to the other would make a difference? Or that swapping old and done Tony Williams for old and done Bryan Robinson would matter? The bottom line is that there were no significant changes on the defense. Maybe it's just me, but I can't get exercised about the defense's lack of good play. It strikes me as sort of like complaining that your Ford Escort can't win the Indy 500. Well...yeah...you knew that going in, right?

Bottom line for me: we knew going into this season that the D was going to stink and that the team would go as far as Carson and the O could take it. And right now the problem is that we can not generate enough points to overcome our crap D.

Does this mean you're no longer going to mock posters who point out major flaws in the Bengals defense? I mean c'mon, you've defended the change in defensive strategy for weeks now largely due to the fact that the Bengals had continued to win. So now that they lost a game your defending the defense rant suddenly turns to poop?

The pass rush was pretty darn good when you consider how much the Bengals relied on a basic 4-man rush or how often they switched to a 3-man rush on critical passing downs. Pretty darn good in the sense that the Bengals managed 4 sacks, one of which was disallowed due to a rare but critical penalty, and whipping boy Justin Smith managed to produce steady pressure even when he wasn't sacking the QB. In fact, I'd say the biggest problem was a Bill passing attack that rarely needed "all day" to strike. Holcomb made quick decisions and repeatedly completed passes in front of the same pudding soft zone that I've been screaming about for weeks. And people can complain all they want about the lack of aggressive blitzing, but a quick glance is all you need to see that Bengal CB's are now backed off the LOS 8-10 yards instead of challenging the WR's release and disrupting the offensive timing.

In a nutshell, Bengals players are still playing aggressively...within a defensive scheme has become remarkably passive.

As for the Bengals offense not being able to compensate for defensive weaknesses, what happened to the balance we were all so proud of? As others have pointed out the Bills run defense not only ranks amongst the worst in the NFL, but from the start of the game it was obvious that they were going to max defend the Bengals pass atack. So explain just 18 carries for Rudi in a game where the Bengals rarely trailed by more than 3 or 4 points?

[HoosierCat]

Does this mean you're no longer going to mock posters who point out major flaws in the Bengals defense? I mean c'mon, you've defended the change in defensive strategy for weeks now largely due to the fact that the Bengals had continued to win. So now that they lost a game your defending the defense rant suddenly turns to poop?

Nope. I'm perfectly fine with paying extra attention to stopping the run. But that wasn't what hurt them yesterday; even when they dropped 6 or 7 into coverage Holcomb beat them. The problem isn't the scheme -- whether it's the stack the line, stop the run strategy you went off on after the Indy game, or the pass-focused zone defense that's got your panties bunched now. The problem is that the Bengals did nothing to signifiicantly improve the defense during the offseason, a point I and many others made repeatedly leading up to September, and which earned me little more than your "wet blanket" cracks.

As for the Bengals offense not being able to compensate for defensive weaknesses, what happened to the balance we were all so proud of? As others have pointed out the Bills run defense not only ranks amongst the worst in the NFL, but from the start of the game it was obvious that they were going to max defend the Bengals pass atack. So explain just 18 carries for Rudi in a game where the Bengals rarely trailed by more than 3 or 4 points?

I wish I knew. I think it's a big factor, perhaps the biggest factor, in Carson's comedown these last three weeks. I don't know whether it's Palmer, not checking down to a run at the line, or if it's Brat suffering from Martz Disease. It's mind-boggling how Rudi could not have a single 4th quarter carry in either the Bills game or the Cleveland game two weeks back; neither game's score dictated a pass-heavy offense in the 4th and that's precisely the point where Rudi should be strongest. Given the absolute lack of carries, I suspect the problem begins with Brat.

[HairOnFire]

Does this mean you're no longer going to mock posters who point out major flaws in the Bengals defense? I mean c'mon, you've defended the change in defensive strategy for weeks now largely due to the fact that the Bengals had continued to win. So now that they lost a game your defending the defense rant suddenly turns to poop?

Nope. I'm perfectly fine with paying extra attention to stopping the run. But that wasn't what hurt them yesterday; even when they dropped 6 or 7 into coverage Holcomb beat them. The problem isn't the scheme -- whether it's the stack the line, stop the run strategy you went off on after the Indy game, or the pass-focused zone defense that's got your panties bunched now. The problem is that the Bengals did nothing to signifiicantly improve the defense during the offseason, a point I and many others made repeatedly leading up to September, and which earned me little more than your "wet blanket" cracks.

Wet blanket? Are you still stinging from that one? Just for the record, I leveled that one at you not because of a single critical rant from you, but because you couldn't resist ANY critical rant directed at the Bengals including the failure to sign Jamie Sharper, Peter Boulware, or my Aunt Faye. Toss in complaints about the way the team handled Peter Warricks injury and his subsequent release, the David Pollack holdout over incentives, or an offseason filled with criticism directed at Rudi Johnson. In fact, you complained loudly about the Bengals FA strategy of resigning Rudi, TJ, and Richie Braham. So let me ask you now that we have the benefit of hindsight, weren't the Bengals prudent in each and every one of these examples? Isn't this an 11-4 team heading for the playoffs?

As for my reaction to the Indy game, let me greedily point out the Chargers beat Indy using the exact same strategy I suggested. Shocking, huh? And if my panties are in a bunch because of the way the Bengals have changed defensive strategies since the Pittsburgh game, well....aren't ALL of our panties in a bunch by now. Didn't you just write a post comparing the Bengals defense to a poop figurine?

Last, let's end on a point of agreement. Not only didn't the Bills run game hurt the Bengals, with very few exceptions NO opposing teams run defense has hurt the Bengals this season. But thanks to a dubious change in defensive strategy the Bengals pass defense is now the lower ranked of the two units and it's failure against the pass most certainly did hurt the Bengals on Sunday.

[HoosierCat]

Just for the record, I leveled that one at you not because of a single critical rant from you, but because you couldn't resist ANY critical rant directed at the Bengals including the failure to sign Jamie Sharper, Peter Boulware, or my Aunt Faye. Toss in complaints about the way the team handled Peter Warricks injury and his subsequent release, the David Pollack holdout over incentives, or an offseason filled with criticism directed at Rudi Johnson. In fact, you complained loudly about the Bengals FA strategy of resigning Rudi, TJ, and Richie Braham. So let me ask you now that we have the benefit of hindsight, weren't the Bengals prudent in each and every one of these examples?

Please show me where I complained about resigning TJ. I considered him the Bengals' No. 1 priority, at least as far as their own FAa were concerned. I was fine with resigning Richie as well, my only mild surprise there was that they chose to give him a two-year deal. And while I would have preferred they used the money the spent on Rudi on the d-line -- which might have resulted in a defense that doesn't need to rob the pass D to stop the run, which would clearly make you happy -- I was fine with the final $ figure reached. As for the failure to sign any significant help in FA for the defense, or the bungled Pollack negotiations, which resulted in both him missing training camp, and the Bengals paying more than Pollack's camp initially demanded...well, that's exactly my point here. If you don't upgrade the talent, you aren't going to get better results, no matter what the scheme.

As for my reaction to the Indy game, let me greedily point out the Chargers beat Indy using the exact same strategy I suggested. Shocking, huh?

The Chargers beat Indy because the have better defensive talent up front than us (check the Pro Bowl roster). Unlike the Bengals, they can defend the run and pressure the passer at the same time.

And if my panties are in a bunch because of the way the Bengals have changed defensive strategies since the Pittsburgh game, well....aren't ALL of our panties in a bunch by now. Didn't you just write a post comparing the Bengals defense to a poop figurine?

I thought they were a poop figurine months ago. Glad to see you've caught up.

Last, let's end on a point of agreement. Not only didn't the Bills run game hurt the Bengals, with very few exceptions NO opposing teams run defense has hurt the Bengals this season. But thanks to a dubious change in defensive strategy the Bengals pass defense is now the lower ranked of the two units and it's failure against the pass most certainly did hurt the Bengals on Sunday.

The Bengals' pass defense has been a mirage all year. As has been pointed out by many, many, many people here and in punditland, their outrageous turnover numbers have covered up a multitude of sins. The problem isn't the scheme. It's that our starting safeties are Olahete and K2, James is slowing down, and now Deltha's dinged.

[schweinhart]

Besides Deltha, the CBs and safeties in any man situation can only deal effectively with average receivers.

James and Keiwan both get burned by fast WRs and solid route runners. None of the Bengals safeties can hang very long in man with WRs or TEs.

The dogged reliance on a straight 4 man rush exposes this weakness in the secondary. It's just not enough pass rush and that's squarely on the personnel, which should compel Brez to adapt. Against the Bills, Thornton got his sack on a stunt with the DE but the few and far between blitzes did next to nothing, Bauman came once but cut back inside into a wall and Webster did probably the worst delayed LB blitz I've ever seen.

The most damning missed tackles were the whiff by Patrick Body on the TD KR and the whiff by Bauman in open field on Roscoe Parrish on 3rd and 18 in the 4th Q. Plus, they can not allow long INT returns of a pick that far downfield like Vincent's -- there's no excuse for it.

On offense, the drops don't help and the Palmer pick looked like last year. Plus, running Rudi only 18 times in that loss is a sign of mental retardation that apparently just won't go completely away. However, with Palmer at QB, the Bengals always got a chance to win regardless of how Rudi is used.

Fortunately, neither the Jagwires nor the Steelers should be able to exploit the weaknesses of the defense as bad as the other playoff teams and the Bengals should not be a one-and-done playoff team this year.

[HairOnFire]

If you don't upgrade the talent, you aren't going to get better results, no matter what the scheme.

But obviously they were getting better results earlier in the season using the same players in a different manner, but that defensive strategy shifted HARD immediately after Pittsburgh gashed their run defense in the 1st meeting.

As for failing to upgrade the defensive talent in the offseason, we both watched as the Bengals were forced to decide whether it would be best to sign their own FA talent while drafting defensive help or letting core offensive players leave while they chased FA defensive help. Since you agreed with the decision to sign TJ and Braham are you seriously going to continue promoting the idea that this team would be better off if it had let Rudi go? Because if you can't make that claim then the criticism about failing to upgrade the defensive talent is just trying to have it both ways.

The fact remains that the Bengals offseason strategy heavily favored securing the offensive gains that have been made and the defense was forced to rely on rookies and better production from existing players for whatever improvement it was likely to get. And quite frankly I thought it was working until everyone in Bengala absoluetly geeked after the 1st Steeler game.

[Sox]

Argue away.

The defense was no worse,more or less than any other time.

The answer for this game is special teams.

A reverse,an onside kick,a kick-off return for a TD,the Bills starting at their own 45 almost each possession.

I'm sick and tired of Darrin Simmons special teams getting caught flat-footed and unprepared.

Just like this game.Just like the end of the first half last year against Tennessee.Just like the fake field goal at home two years ago against the Steelers.

I lay the blame of this loss directly on the unprepared feet of Darrin Simmons.

[HairOnFire]

The Bengals' pass defense has been a mirage all year. As has been pointed out by many, many, many people here and in punditland, their outrageous turnover numbers have covered up a multitude of sins. The problem isn't the scheme. It's that our starting safeties are Olahete and K2, James is slowing down, and now Deltha's dinged.

That doesn't wash because the turnovers weren't the result of happy accidents. They were aggresively gameplanned for. In fact, the "6 Days to Suday" program was filled from beginning to end with shots of Bengal coaches and players breaking down film before each offered predictions of 4 or 5 interceptions. Then they went out and produced them. Granted, no team can count on that type of production every week but the Bengals produced it often enough to prove it wasn't a fluke....provided they stay aggressive and attack the passing game first and foremost. Besides, you don't need a half dozen picks per game to slow the other guy down every week. Sometimes you get the job done just by holding the other guy under 300 yards passing per game. Yeah, go figure.

As for the players mentioned above Olahete is indeed a liability in pass coverage, but he's getting playing time because of his run defense. Change that. I've screamed for it for a couple of weeks now, right? But the other players are pretty solid, including two Pro Bowl quality corners, and if James is slowing down late in the season, and I agree that he is, then I doubt very much that the secret to helping him out is reduced blitzing, more cushion and less jamming, and a steady diet of 3 and 4 man pass rushes.

Get after it.

Argue away.

The defense was no worse,more or less than any other time.

The answer for this game is special teams.

Read my first post on this thread. You'll find I've already said the single biggest factor in this loss was due to the fault of special teams. That said, they've been a very solid group all year and it's unlikely they'll be a target for blame next week.

Far more likely we'll be talking about one of the usual suspects.

[membengal]

I didn't see a choice for "inability to get off of the field on 3rd and long" so I chose other. Anyone looking at anything other than a horrible defensive game from the secondary and special teams is looking in the wrong place.

[Sox]

Hair,I did read it,and I happen to agree with it.

[schweinhart]

As for the players mentioned above Olahete is indeed a liability in pass coverage, but he's getting playing time because of his run defense. Change that. I've screamed for it for a couple of weeks now, right? But the other players are pretty solid, including two Pro Bowl quality corners, and if James is slowing down late in the season, and I agree that he is, then I doubt very much that the secret to helping him out is reduced blitzing, more cushion and less jamming, and a steady diet of 3 and 4 man pass rushes.

Get after it.

Since Ohalete was injured, the change at safety has taken place with Keiwan. Ohalete still wound up on the field some in pass defense last week but it looked like Keiwan is on the whole now their passing situation free safety with Bauman coming in as the nickel back instead of Keiwan. I think they've seen enough of Ohalete to keep it that way, but would be surprised not to see Ohalete in on likely running downs, especially against physical running teams like the Jagwires and Steelers.

James is still good enough in coverage to keep the receivers he faces from the likes of the Jagwires and Steelers from killing the Bengals chance to win. But he now looks dicier on the whole to me than the beginning of the year, as does the entire Bengals secondary which has statisically dropped to 23rd in the league in pass yardage thanks to giving up an average of nearly 260 over the past 6 games.

[HairOnFire]

James is still good enough in coverage to keep the receivers he faces from the likes of the Jagwires and Steelers from killing the Bengals chance to win. But he now looks dicier on the whole to me than the beginning of the year, as does the entire Bengals secondary which has statisically dropped to 23rd in the league in pass yardage thanks to giving up an average of nearly 260 over the past 6 games.

First, I think we can all agree that it's no longer a rumor that Tory James has lost a step. Where I may give you an argument is if teams like the Jags and Steelers can exploit him if the Bengals also choose to attack with a conservative pass rush. Simply put, dropping more players into coverage isn't going to work if their main focus is simply keeping completions infront of them.

As for the changes at safety, I'm seeing the same things as you are, and any complaint that I have relates to wanting to see even more work for the reserve cornerbacks.

Next, those are some ugly numbers you've posted and they'd be even worse if the Cleveland game wasn't included. I'll argue that the weather that day kept the numbers artificially low and a far more aggressive pass defense could have come close to shutting things down altogether. Didn't happen. Sucks.

Last, I'm suddenly reminded that my rant against the change in defensive strategy is shockingly close to the preseason criticisms concerning Bresnahan that were offered by Raider fans.

[HoosierCat]

But he now looks dicier on the whole to me than the beginning of the year, as does the entire Bengals secondary which has statisically dropped to 23rd in the league in pass yardage thanks to giving up an average of nearly 260 over the past 6 games.

One point that hasn't been raised regarding the improved run D (and concurrent worsened pass D) is that the improvement/worsening correlates with a rather crucial personnel change: the replacement of the injured Bryan Robinson with second-year man Shaun Smith. Whatever changes may have been made on a scheme level, Smith has been a big improvement over Robinson vs. the run; he's made as many tackles in the last 5 games (18), and more solo (12), as Robinson did in 10 outings (18 tackles, 9 solo). I'd argue that accounts for a big chunk (about 320 lbs, to be precise) of the shift.

Edit: It occured to me that it might be revealing to take a look at the performance of the guys on either side of Smith, Justin and Thornton. If they had improved as well, that would lend further weight to the idea that the improvement in the run D is personnel-driven. And indeed, that's the case. Thornton had 24 tackles in the first 10 games with Robinson; he has 16 in 5 with Smith (plus an INT). Justin's tackle numbers are just a bit better -- 39 in the first 10 versus 21 in the last 5 -- but he has 3.5 sacks in the last 5 versus 2.5 in the prior 10.

Net-net, the line has gotten about 2 tackles better/game with Shaun Smith. Moreover, a greater percentage of both Thornton's and Justin's tackles are assists in the last five games vs. the first 10, suggesting someone is slowing runners down for them to get to. The same is true for the guy right behind the line, MLB Odell Thurman. Thurman had 57 tackles in the first 10 games, versus 35 in the last 5, so he's just a skosh ahead of pace. But in the first 10 games he had just 16 assists; in the last 5 he has 17.

It doesn't take a lot to improve a run defense, at least in the yardage rankings. The difference between what we're on course for this year -- about 1,757 yards -- and what we gave up last season, 2,062 yards, works out to less than 20 yards a game. Make two or three more tackles up front, like we are now, and there you go.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

We lost the game because their offense played better than our defense. Flat out.

[bengalboomer7]

Good thread If I wasn't at work I'd write my own paragraph too.

With Frazier we had too many big plays and with Bres we give up too many long drives. We gave up the 99 yard bombs(Cleveland game) for 10 play drives that eat up the clock. So, which is working better. Shrug

One thing you can't overlook as Joisey put is Shaun Smith. I would like to see a Smith/Robinson combo and see how that works

[schweinhart]

Shaun Smith has done his job well without question. And when the Bengals have been gashed by the run, say Pittsburgh 1st game, it sure wasn't his fault since he was inactive instead of Carl Plowed.

But B-Rob has done a decent job at LDT, which has allowed Thornton to switch to the right where he stands more of a chance physically. B-Rob was about as much of an upgrade as could be expected from a solid journeyman, but he isn't Corey Simon.

No question, though, that Smith's mass and power makes him ideal for going up against RGs and centers because he is hard to move out of the middle where the Bengals run D has been gashed during the Marvin Lombardi era. Smith is the anchor of the D-line vs. the run and he won't be washed out off the line by anyone.

I'd like to see the Bengals starting D-line log the first half vs. Chiefs this week if the Chiefs bring it with their starting O-line and Larry "Diapers Off" Johnson. If the Bengals run D holds, it bodes real well because they won't face a better O-line or more productive runner in the playoffs. Everyone else will seem easy.

[HoosierCat]

Shaun Smith has done his job well without question. And when the Bengals have been gashed by the run, say Pittsburgh 1st game, it sure wasn't his fault since he was inactive instead of Carl Plowed.

But B-Rob has done a decent job at LDT, which has allowed Thornton to switch to the right where he stands more of a chance physically. B-Rob was about as much of an upgrade as could be expected from a solid journeyman, but he isn't Corey Simon.

No question, though, that Smith's mass and power makes him ideal for going up against RGs and centers because he is hard to move out of the middle where the Bengals run D has been gashed during the Marvin Lombardi era. Smith is the anchor of the D-line vs. the run and he won't be washed out off the line by anyone.

Exactly. However, the downside is that Smith isn't going to put much pressure on the QB, versus a converted DE like Robinson, who's much more in Marvin's "quick, disruptive DE" mold. I'd guess that the uptick in Fanene's playing time is related; Marvin has made it clear he doesn't want a big space-eater in the middle because he wants his line pressuring the QB. Stopping the run is supposed to be the duty of LB corps (insert endless Marvin-speak about linebackers maintaining their gaps here).

Bottom line, if anyone is pining for the early season Bengals D, they'll have to wait until Robinson gets back.

[schweinhart]

Definitely the DE type at DT for pass rush can work if the Bengals stunted this year like they did under Frazier. I just haven't seen anywhere near that frequency this year. But if those "explosive" DE types get caught in blocks, they're done and there's zero pass rush. Add it with blizting LBs and it's a different story because the gaps are there.

I do buy a lot of the MarvinSpeak about good LBs ultimatley being the answer vs. the run, but I don't buy that the DTs weren't the problem as ML said IIRC because those LBs are sitting ducks when the other teams RBs got Mack truck sized holes to run through from washed out DTs. Look at what changed at DT since then -- Thronton switched to RDT, B-Rob signed, and Shuan Smith claimed off the waiver wire halfway through last year. Plus, Marvin and Palmer were the ones lobbying for Mikey to sign Corey Simon, eh?

I would qualify that Shaun Smith is not going to get much pressure on the QB. He definitely wears out the longer he's in in terms of exerting the energy needed to pass rush. But he's a solid bullrusher who can apply pressure when the pass comes on running downs and I remember him stunting around the right end once to get some pressure on the QB. But he's not got the high-intensity level stamina to be anything other than part of the rotation.

The best way to increase the QB pressure at this point IMO is speed rush from the end -- namely David Pollack at DE and corner blitzes out of the slot. Anything to get the QB to come back up into the pocket out of a 5 step or deeper drop and into the rest of the rush as it gradually gets there.

[Whur CHad At?]

If Marvin wants a smaller (weight) line to pressure the QB, then why do they hardly ever pressure the QB? They are always getting their asses handed to them...

[HoosierCat]

I do buy a lot of the MarvinSpeak about good LBs ultimatley being the answer vs. the run, but I don't buy that the DTs weren't the problem as ML said IIRC because those LBs are sitting ducks when the other teams RBs got Mack truck sized holes to run through from washed out DTs. Look at what changed at DT since then -- Thronton switched to RDT, B-Rob signed, and Shuan Smith claimed off the waiver wire halfway through last year.

Agreed. I'd only note that Smith has had the biggest impact on the run D; the Thornton switch and Robinson for Williams swap had the most impact in terms of the pass D, I think. But like you pointed out, they too often get blown off the line, leaving the LBs to face a back who's just put it into fourth gear.

The best way to increase the QB pressure at this point IMO is speed rush from the end -- namely David Pollack at DE and corner blitzes out of the slot. Anything to get the QB to come back up into the pocket out of a 5 step or deeper drop and into the rest of the rush as it gradually gets there.

Agreed again. But it was precisely those blitzes and stunts that were the hallmark of the Frazier D, and the point of contention between him and Marvin. Not sure how much we'll see from Chuck.

[HoosierCat]

If Marvin wants a smaller (weight) line to pressure the QB, then why do they hardly ever pressure the QB? They are always getting their asses handed to them...

Well...the bottom line is that they simply aren't very good. Go look at the defensive line numbers on footballoutsiders.com; the Bengals d-line ranks about 30th in the league by their calculations.

[derekshank]

I know this thread has turned into a "why our defense sucks" thread... but to get back to the question, I had to be honest and vote for Palmer.

I know our D played like crap all day long... but the fact is, we gave the ball to Palmer at the end of the game with a need to get only 30 yards to tie the game - 60 yards to win, and he made a terrible decision.

Palmer has had an incredible season. One of the best in Bengal;s history... but if he's going to go down in history, he can't do that stuff. John Elway and Troy Aikman (The two names I most hear him compared to) didn't make those mistakes regularly. They won those games regularly.

He hasn't had enough opportunities to call it a trend... but in two of our losses, we gave him the ball with a chance to win or tie... and he commited turnovers.

I can't complain... he's one of the main reasons we've turned it around, but it would be nice to see a last minute comeback.

[HairOnFire]

Palmer has had an incredible season. One of the best in Bengal;s history... but if he's going to go down in history, he can't do that stuff. John Elway and Troy Aikman (The two names I most hear him compared to) didn't make those mistakes regularly. They won those games regularly.

((Shrug)) I read once that John Elway, the QB with the most 4th quarter comebacks in NFL history, was successful leading game winning drives within the final 2 minutes less than 35% of the time. And that number was said to have fallen even lower if he had no timeouts to work with....as Palmer didn't.

[Jet23]

I know this thread has turned into a "why our defense sucks" thread... but to get back to the question, I had to be honest and vote for Palmer.

I know our D played like crap all day long... but the fact is, we gave the ball to Palmer at the end of the game with a need to get only 30 yards to tie the game - 60 yards to win, and he made a terrible decision.

Palmer has had an incredible season. One of the best in Bengal;s history... but if he's going to go down in history, he can't do that stuff. John Elway and Troy Aikman (The two names I most hear him compared to) didn't make those mistakes regularly. They won those games regularly.

He hasn't had enough opportunities to call it a trend... but in two of our losses, we gave him the ball with a chance to win or tie... and he commited turnovers.

I can't complain... he's one of the main reasons we've turned it around, but it would be nice to see a last minute comeback.

I agree with you. Right or wrong, until Carson pulls one out in the 4th quarter, he is going to have that 1,000 lb. monkey on his back. I don't know what percentage of comebacks he actually completed, but I do know that he was at his best when the pressure was on.

That being said, I'll take my chances with Carson. Even if he never completed a final drive comeback, I'd still take him over 90% of the qbs out there. Also, you have to give some credit to Elway's OL as well. It's hard to sustain a drive when you have DE's & LB's hanging all over you.

I know this thread has turned into a "why our defense sucks" thread... but to get back to the question, I had to be honest and vote for Palmer.

I know our D played like crap all day long... but the fact is, we gave the ball to Palmer at the end of the game with a need to get only 30 yards to tie the game - 60 yards to win, and he made a terrible decision.

Palmer has had an incredible season. One of the best in Bengal;s history... but if he's going to go down in history, he can't do that stuff. John Elway and Troy Aikman (The two names I most hear him compared to) didn't make those mistakes regularly. They won those games regularly.

He hasn't had enough opportunities to call it a trend... but in two of our losses, we gave him the ball with a chance to win or tie... and he commited turnovers.

I can't complain... he's one of the main reasons we've turned it around, but it would be nice to see a last minute comeback.

I agree with you. Right or wrong, until Carson pulls one out in the 4th quarter, he is going to have that 1,000 lb. monkey on his back. I don't know what percentage of comebacks he actually completed, but I do know that he was at his best when the pressure was on.

That being said, I'll take my chances with Carson. Even if he never completed a final drive comeback, I'd still take him over 90% of the qbs out there. Also, you have to give some credit to Elway's OL as well. It's hard to sustain a drive when you have DE's & LB's hanging all over you.

Ooops! Actually, I meant that Elway was at his best when the pressure was on.