Please explain why the Bengals can't stop run.

[USMC203]

There does not seem to be a good DT in the draft or SS. I say bring on Askew, S. Smith and Fenene. We can then take up a collection and tell Mr. Brown that we will pay the signing bonus fo a BIG DT FA and he can just go out and lay down to slow the run up a little, that is more than what we got now. We need FAT not FAST up front. Also a couple of TE that can block and catch, more on that later (Ryan Hamby TE OHIO St). I don't think our ship is sinking we are just going to get our feet wet!!!!!!!!!!! Lets get over the loss and get ready for next Sunday, as Coach Marvin said" Learn from it and get ready for the next one" . When a Steelers Fan gets on here, don't even read there Bull S**T . We all know we got out played by a good team, we don't need to hear it from a bunch of GOOFY A** Pitts Fans.

[Kirkendall]

You better talk to Marvin too who's opted not to sign big (fat) free agent defensive tackles (Warren Sapp, Corey Simon) in favor of the athletic defensive linemen while keeping costs as balanced as possible -- not too much $$ in one position with Chad bitching about money, and Willie, most likely, wanting a phat contract extension that takes him to retirement.

Ryan Hamby? Yea, why have Chris Henry drop passes in the end-zone when we could have a tight end that does the same.

Oh well, I'm sure things will get back to normal soon. It was just a bad week -- remember Pittsburgh's near self-destruction after losing to JAX because of Tommy Maddox? We'll be fine. It's the bounce-back factor we (well, the Bengals) need to focus on.

[AMC]

Marvin doesn't sign big DTs and gives the impression that he doesn't want or need them, but his BEST defense was based on them....Siragusa and Adams in Baltimore keeping OL off of Ray Lewis....why the change in philosophy?

[derekshank]

There does not seem to be a good DT in the draft or SS.

Seriously? You're kidding right? Maybe you were talking about last year... in which case you are right. However, 2006 is loaded.

Rod Wright 6-5, 305 Texas

Jesse Maholena 6-2, 300 Tennessee

Kyle Williams 6-2, 295 LSU

Haloti Ngata 6-4, 345 Oregon

Rod Wright 6-5, 305 Texas

Gabe Watson 6-3, 330 Michigan

All these guys have been projected to go in one experts mind or another. Not to mention guys like

Orien Harris 6-2, 300 Miami

Jonathan Lewis 6-1, 310 Virginia Tech

One of them will drop to us for sure. As for SS, I agree. There isn't anything 1st round worthy... but it's also not our primary need. Our secondary has played very well. Next year Madieu will be back, and KK has played much better than anyone thought. He's not a pro-bowler... but we don't need to use a 1st rounder there.

I've been a big Thornton supporter... but the combination of him and Robinson hasn't done much to stop the run the past few games. I don't know if it is them, or the system, or what... but something's got to change. My guess is we get one of the more beefy DT's late in the first round... Whether we go to a 3-4, or just just move Robinson over, I don't know. I'd be fine with either... but next year, the run defense problems will be a distant memory. I believe it.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Keith Blue in Round Two!

has a nice ring to it!

[cincyhokie]

We NEED to hit the FA market this offseason, one rookie draft is not going to fix the glaring problems.

Ok, lets follow your plan. We hit the free agent market this offseason and ignore everything else to get run stoppers.

Guess what happens? WE go 0-16, stopping the run but being unable to put up any points because we lose most of our offensive linemen to free agency.

Good plan.

My point was not to say that a good draft won't help this team. It will. But a draft takes time to develop. Even if we draft 2 rookies on the DL, they're not going to shore up the defense next year as much as some proven talent.

Now, I could be wrong on this completely as I have not looked at this year's FAs that are going to be available.

I do think that there are a couple of OL that must stay. Anderson and Steinbach. That's it. The rest are good, solid players but they are not irreplacible.

With all that said, I really don't care how Marvin does it, through the draft or FA. I'll just trust that he knows what he is doing.

[ArmyBengal]

Kirk, this is not one I'm willing to sit by on at all. While I understand and agree to an extent with what you are saying, if the D would make a stop in the second half, they would have gotten off the field. I agree the offense didn't help in this matter in going 3 and out or turnovers, but when turnovers happen, the D has to respond. They responded by getting ran the F**K over. God knows there is enough blame to go around, but God I hate our run defense so much, I've been looking for small animals or children to kick all day !!!

WHODEY !!!

[USMC203]

We NEED to hit the FA market this offseason, one rookie draft is not going to fix the glaring problems.

Ok, lets follow your plan. We hit the free agent market this offseason and ignore everything else to get run stoppers.

Guess what happens? WE go 0-16, stopping the run but being unable to put up any points because we lose most of our offensive linemen to free agency.

Good plan.

Where in the post does it say 'totally ignore the offensive line and sign DL free agents'? So, what you are saying is we are pretty much stuck with our current DL, because they have to sign their OL? Let me get this straight....what?

The O line looks good for the next couple of years Ghiaciuc plays G & C,P. Lougheed, Viera, Keift plays G & T, Wilkerson C & G, Andrews Plays both T spots. plus the starters we got now. The D line SUCKS

[alense]

Haloti Ngata 6-4, 345 Oregon

I like this guy. I've never seen him play, but I like this guy!

[Kirkendall]

Kirk, this is not one I'm willing to sit by on at all. While I understand and agree to an extent with what you are saying, if the D would make a stop in the second half, they would have gotten off the field. I agree the offense didn't help in this matter in going 3 and out or turnovers, but when turnovers happen, the D has to respond. They responded by getting ran the F**K over. God knows there is enough blame to go around, but God I hate our run defense so much, I've been looking for small animals or children to kick all day !!!

WHODEY !!!

Oh, I agree, the defense didn't do the team any good by letting Parker, Bettis, and Haynes run over them. I'm not arguing that at all. This was, by far, the worst team effort by the team. I won't argue that point at all.

But for the sake of keeping the discussion going, look at it this way:

In the first half, the Pittsburgh offense averaged 4.7 yards per rush. In comparison, the Steelers offense averaged 4.7 yards in the second half. No difference.

In the first half, the Steelers offense ran 24 total plays (16 rushes). They gained 111 yards. Conversely, the Bengals offense ran 34 total plays and won the time of possession battle at half-time (16:29-13:31). The score, at the time, was 7-6.

However, in the second half, the Steelers ran a total of 36 total offensive plays (30 rushes, 6 passes). The Bengals offense had drives of plays of 3, 3, 3, 4, 3, 7. Converting total plays to time of possession, that translates to 1:55, 1:09, 1:32, 1:46, 0:46, 0:55. The Bengals total second half time of possession was 8:02 -- the other 21:58 the Bengals defense was struggling to grab air between pounding Bettis runs, and exhausting Parker scats.

I'm not going to point fingers to one side or the other, but the crap the Bengals defensive line is getting is not justified. If we blame people, we blame the offense (lack of drives, sloppy play), the defense (for not making big stops), special teams (missed FG, Kickoff out of bounds), and the coaches for getting the team "ready" for this result.

Like I said, this to me, was the worst team effort of the season. Not a single unit, player, or coach (creativeness finding offensive plays, or defensive schemes to stop Pittsburgh's running game), stepped up and for that, they all deserve the blame. I think you and I can agree on that Army.

(this has to be post of the year... )

[ArmyBengal]

Kirk, couldn't have said it better. I have calmed a bit from my original tirade of hatred and anger. I'm now down to disappointment in the "team" effort and am looking for a great rebound against the cheeseheads !!! Some of the hurtin' sure will go away after beating the Pack, laying an a**whoopin on the Ratbirds, and going 7-2 into the bye week !!!

WHODEY !!!

[derekshank]

Allow me to say that I think it is way too early to talk about next year... when we have a new D coordinator, and a rookie MLB that is still learning the ropes. I think we are well on our way to being a very good playoff team... but for the purpose of conversation...

Here's a list of the SS's and D-linemen with four years or more of experience who aren't under contract for 2006. It doesn't take into account voidable years or team options to extend contracts into 2006. (I don't take credit for this research. I found it on another board and deleted all non-SS/D-linemen)

First, lets look at the Bengals, and who we'll need to resign...

Rashad Bauman CB

Jon Kitna QB

Nick Luchey FB

Anthony Mitchell FS

Reggie Myles FS

Hannibal Navies LB

Ifeayani Ohelate SS

Carl Powell DE

Matt Schobel TE

Tony Stewart TE

Kenny Watson RB

Nate Webster LB

Marcus Wilkins LB

Now everyone else's D-linemen and SS's

Baltimore Ravens

Ma'ake Kemoeatu DT

Anthony Weaver DE

Chad Williams SS

Buffalo Bills

Justin Bannan DT

Ryan Denney DE

Ron Edwards DT

Cleveland Browns

Antwan Harris S

Orpheus Roye DE

Denver Broncos

Sam Brandon SS

Marco Coleman DE

Monsanto Pope DT

Indianapolis Colts

Raheem Brock DE

Larry Tripplett DT

Jacksonville Jaguars

Deke Cooper SS

Rob Meier DT

Marcellus Wiley DE

Kansas City Chiefs

Lional Dalton DT

New England Patriots

Michael Stone SS

New York Jets

John Abraham DE

James Reed DT

Oakland Raiders

Jarrod Cooper SS

Ed Jasper DT

Kenny Smith DT

Pittsburgh Steelers

Kimo Von Oelhoffen DE

San Diego Chargers

DeQuincy Scott DE

Tennessee Titans

Otis Leverette DE

Kyle Vanden Bosch DE

Tank Williams SS

Arizona Cardinals

Russell Davis NT

Atlanta Falcons

Erik Flowers DE

Ronnie Heard SS

Carolina Panthers

Idrees Bashir S

Marlon McCree SS

Kemp Rasmussen DE

Chicago Bears

Bobby Gray S

Dallas Cowboys

Eric Ogbogu DE/OLB

Detroit Lions

Jared DeVries DE

Kalimba Edwards DE

Bracy Walker S

Green Bay Packers

Grady Jackson DT

Aaron Kampman DE

Earl Little S

Minnesota Vikings

Corey Chavous SS

Lance Johnstone DE

Willie Offord SS

New Orleans Saints

Darren Howard DE

Willie Whitehead DT

New York Giants

Kendrick Clancy DT

Philadelphia Eagles

N.D. Kalu DE

Juqua Thomas DE

San Francisco 49ers

Travis Hall DE

Seattle Seahawks

Rodney Bailey DE

Rocky Bernard DT

John Howell S

Marquand Manuel S

Joe Tafoya DE

St. Louis Rams

Adam Archuleta SS

Tyoka Jackson DT

Damione Lewis DT

Ryan Pickett NT

Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Chris Hovan DT

Ellis Wyms DT

Washington Redskins

Ryan Clark SS

Demetric Evans DE

If you want the entire list, I found it through Google. Here is it:

http://boards.giants.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=68615

[AMC]

The only two players on your list of Bengals I would resign are Kitna and Myles....But that is not feasible, need more of them signed of course....

Need to wrap up Steinbach and Levi...other than that there could be a large amount of turnover on this team on DL and S...

[membengal]

Kirk, this is not one I'm willing to sit by on at all. While I understand and agree to an extent with what you are saying, if the D would make a stop in the second half, they would have gotten off the field. I agree the offense didn't help in this matter in going 3 and out or turnovers, but when turnovers happen, the D has to respond. They responded by getting ran the F**K over. God knows there is enough blame to go around, but God I hate our run defense so much, I've been looking for small animals or children to kick all day !!!

WHODEY !!!

Oh, I agree, the defense didn't do the team any good by letting Parker, Bettis, and Haynes run over them. I'm not arguing that at all. This was, by far, the worst team effort by the team. I won't argue that point at all.

But for the sake of keeping the discussion going, look at it this way:

In the first half, the Pittsburgh offense averaged 4.7 yards per rush. In comparison, the Steelers offense averaged 4.7 yards in the second half. No difference.

In the first half, the Steelers offense ran 24 total plays (16 rushes). They gained 111 yards. Conversely, the Bengals offense ran 34 total plays and won the time of possession battle at half-time (16:29-13:31). The score, at the time, was 7-6.

However, in the second half, the Steelers ran a total of 36 total offensive plays (30 rushes, 6 passes). The Bengals offense had drives of plays of 3, 3, 3, 4, 3, 7. Converting total plays to time of possession, that translates to 1:55, 1:09, 1:32, 1:46, 0:46, 0:55. The Bengals total second half time of possession was 8:02 -- the other 21:58 the Bengals defense was struggling to grab air between pounding Bettis runs, and exhausting Parker scats.

I'm not going to point fingers to one side or the other, but the crap the Bengals defensive line is getting is not justified. If we blame people, we blame the offense (lack of drives, sloppy play), the defense (for not making big stops), special teams (missed FG, Kickoff out of bounds), and the coaches for getting the team "ready" for this result.

Like I said, this to me, was the worst team effort of the season. Not a single unit, player, or coach (creativeness finding offensive plays, or defensive schemes to stop Pittsburgh's running game), stepped up and for that, they all deserve the blame. I think you and I can agree on that Army.

(this has to be post of the year... )

I don't want this to get lost in the shuffle.

What kirk said. All of it. Agree 100%.

When I look back on that game, it is the offenses' short-comings that pain me the most. By far. That's because I, like joisey and a few others, expect this team to get carried by the offense. The offense instead hung the D out to dry in the second half, and this D isn't good enough to have that happen to it for prolonged stretches. When it does, they get beat. Period.

Here's an idle wonder. 1st and 10 after James' big interception gives the Bengals the ball and momentum at mid-field. How about NOT a stretch running play to Perry. How about something to Carson to keep pressure on the Steelers? Stupid sequence from Brat. Perry for a three yard loss. Rudi up gut for five. Now a testy third and 8 with the Steelers thinking they can avoid disaster. Then interception. Bad sequence. Really bad. Set the tone for the second half. And it got worse from there offensively.

[derekshank]

The only two players on your list of Bengals I would resign are Kitna and Myles....But that is not feasible, need more of them signed of course....

Need to wrap up Steinbach and Levi...other than that there could be a large amount of turnover on this team on DL and S...

Well, you either have to resign one of the TE's, or go get one through the draft or free agency. I imagine one of them will be back.

I'd also keep Ohalete because he's cheap, and he is decent insurance. Watson for the same reason. We have a lot of money free right now... so I expect a couple extensions on the O-line... but now that we've erased the losing stigma... it's time to get a real free agent.

Hovan is over-hyped... and is over-priced as such. I'm also not someone who knows follows other teams well enough to know how good some of these guys are... but Triplett (DT) from Ind, Abraham (DE) from NYJ, and Chavous (SS) from Min would all be huge in our transformation.

Here's an idle wonder. 1st and 10 after James' big interception gives the Bengals the ball and momentum at mid-field. How about NOT a stretch running play to Perry. How about something to Carson to keep pressure on the Steelers? Stupid sequence from Brat. Perry for a three yard loss. Rudi up gut for five. Now a testy third and 8 with the Steelers thinking they can avoid disaster. Then interception. Bad sequence. Really bad. Set the tone for the second half. And it got worse from there offensively.

I was thinking the exact same thing. An opportunity to make up for the missed opportunities in the first half... and we simply missed another opportunity.

[walshfan]

Keith Blue in Round Two!

has a nice ring to it!

Gee if they draft Greg Blue SS Georgia to go along with KEITH they'd have the Blues Bros!!!!!

[cincy9275]

everyone is going in to long rants about why our d can't stop the run. the reason is we don't have a very good front seven period.

[BengalPappaw]

I apologize if what I'm about to say was already said in this string -- I just didn't have the patience to read them all.

I did have the patience and stomach to watch the tape of the Steelers game and there was one glaring problem. Our front 4 can NOT get off blocks. That is consistent with what I've seen a few of you say -- i.e. we are NOT good enough up front.

In contrast the Steelers were able to slip our blocks and make tackles.

Marvin may be right that smaller, quick Defensive lineman are better than fat, slugs -- BUT those "quick, smaller" lineman MUST be able to get off blocks and make plays.

If we draft or get a D-lineman in FA, we must get one that can get off blocks and then make plays.

Okay pass the Kool Aid, I'm ready to play Green Bay.

[The_Next_Big_Thing]

Keith Blue in Round Two!

has a nice ring to it!

Gee if they draft Greg Blue SS Georgia to go along with KEITH they'd have the Blues Bros!!!!!

Uh why was I thinking it was Keith blue? *smack* I meant Greg.

[Kazkal]

There does not seem to be a good DT in the draft or SS.

Seriously? You're kidding right? Maybe you were talking about last year... in which case you are right. However, 2006 is loaded.

Rod Wright 6-5, 305 Texas

Jesse Maholena 6-2, 300 Tennessee

Kyle Williams 6-2, 295 LSU

Haloti Ngata 6-4, 345 Oregon

Rod Wright 6-5, 305 Texas

Gabe Watson 6-3, 330 Michigan

All these guys have been projected to go in one experts mind or another. Not to mention guys like

Orien Harris 6-2, 300 Miami

Jonathan Lewis 6-1, 310 Virginia Tech

One of them will drop to us for sure. As for SS, I agree. There isn't anything 1st round worthy... but it's also not our primary need. Our secondary has played very well. Next year Madieu will be back, and KK has played much better than anyone thought. He's not a pro-bowler... but we don't need to use a 1st rounder there.

I've been a big Thornton supporter... but the combination of him and Robinson hasn't done much to stop the run the past few games. I don't know if it is them, or the system, or what... but something's got to change. My guess is we get one of the more beefy DT's late in the first round... Whether we go to a 3-4, or just just move Robinson over, I don't know. I'd be fine with either... but next year, the run defense problems will be a distant memory. I believe it.

Haloti Ngata 6-4, 345 Oregon is a beast and should be a future bengal someone that big and still be fast gotta get this guy.

[derekshank]

Haloti Ngata 6-4, 345 Oregon is a beast and should be a future bengal someone that big and still be fast gotta get this guy.

It's hard to predict this early how any given draft will go... it's still mid-season...no combine yet... all of that, but if what the current projections hold any water, there is no way he will drop to us. We are a playoff team... and even if we miss the playoffs, we'll still get a late first round pick... and he's projected everywhere I look to go in the top 15.

[HoosierCat]

While I'd welcome a DT or two next April...if that's all we do it isn't going to be enough. That's build-for-the-future stuff, which has to be done, but the Bengals need immediate impact on the d-line. The Bengals are going to have to get serious about a top FA DT. No more Thorntons and Robinsons but a Corey Simon type of player.

[Kirkendall]

[derekshank]

While I'd welcome a DT or two next April...if that's all we do it isn't going to be enough. That's build-for-the-future stuff, which has to be done, but the Bengals need immediate impact on the d-line. The Bengals are going to have to get serious about a top FA DT. No more Thorntons and Robinsons but a Corey Simon type of player.

Fair enough Joisey... name your man. Of the DT's that are not currently under contract for 2006:

Baltimore Ravens

Ma'ake Kemoeatu DT

Buffalo Bills

Justin Bannan DT

Ron Edwards DT

Denver Broncos

Monsanto Pope DT

Indianapolis Colts

Larry Tripplett DT

Jacksonville Jaguars

Rob Meier DT

Kansas City Chiefs

Lional Dalton DT

New York Jets

James Reed DT

Oakland Raiders

Ed Jasper DT

Kenny Smith DT

Arizona Cardinals

Russell Davis NT

Green Bay Packers

Grady Jackson DT

New Orleans Saints

Willie Whitehead DT

New York Giants

Kendrick Clancy DT

Seattle Seahawks

Rocky Bernard DT

St. Louis Rams

Tyoka Jackson DT

Damione Lewis DT

Ryan Pickett NT

Tampa Bay Buccaneers

Chris Hovan DT

Ellis Wyms DT

Bunch a winners in there, huh? In fact, I can't find a single name that is ranked in the top 25 anywhere. However, there are several big name DT's in the draft this coming year (and I think that guys like Madieu Williams, Landon Johnson, and Odell Thurman would bristle at your statement that a rookie won't make an immediate impact).

Maybe the way to go is to draft a big DT... maybe even trade up to get a really good one... and use that FA money to get one of the big name DE's like Marcellus Wiley, or John Abraham, or Kyle Vanden Bosch, or Darren Howard... you get the idea... there a a ton of DE's in the top 25 that my hit the FA market this year. Just a thought...

Fair point though Kirk. That is next year talk... and I think we can win this year.

[Kirkendall]