Rudi Johnson

[jjakq27]

http://bengals.com/press/news.asp?iCurPage=0&news_id=2798

Crunch-time snag

3/14/2005 - 3-14-05, 7:15 p.m.

Updated: 3-14-05, 10:30 p.m.

BY GEOFF HOBSON

The clock keeps ticking and the Bengals and running back Rudi Johnson keep talking, but a snag late Monday prevented a long-term deal with the Wednesday 4 p.m. deadline less than 48 hours away.

Agent Peter Schaffer said the sides talked all weekend and all day Monday, but he’s not sure it’s going to be enough.

“We’ve talked. We’ve talked a lot and we’ll probably talk again,” Schaffer said Monday night. “But an impasse has developed and with the deadline almost only 24 hours away, I don’t know if the chasm can be overcome.”

If the two sides can’t reach a multi-year deal by then, a four-month negotiating blackout begins. Johnson has already signed his one-year, $6.3 million franchise player tender, indicating he’ll play and report on time for all mandatory activities.

The talks come against the backdrop of reports that backup running back Chris Perry has undergone his second sports hernia surgery, but it is expected he’ll be ready by June 1 and for the June voluntary camps and mandatory minicamp.

When asked if the snag involves up-front money, annual average, or length of the contract, Schaffer said, “It’s too complicated to narrow down like that. It’s over a difference of opinion. We’ve got a difference in value.”

The debate, no doubt, continues to focus on Johnson’s worth in the context of the league’s top backs.

In his 21 NFL starts, Johnson has gained 2,206 yards, which is 21 more starts than Oakland’s Lamont Jordan got before signing a recent five-year, $27.5 million deal. Johnson is coming off his first 1,000-yard season, a Bengals’ franchise-record 1,454, and his first Pro Bowl alternate berth.

The top paid running backs, who have all had multiple 1,000-yard or Pro Bowl seasons, have numbers like San Diego’s LaDainian Tomlinson ($64 million over eight years with a $19 million bonus), and Washington’s Clinton Portis, eight years, $50 million with a $14 million bonus. The Chiefs’ Priest Holmes is at about $7 million per year (seven for $48 million) and the Jets’ Curtis Martin is at about $6 million per year at eight for $46 million.

Because the collective bargaining agreement expires in a couple of years, clubs can’t pro-rate bonuses for more than five years in current contracts, which means the Bengals are probably looking at a four- or five-year deal with Johnson.

Also Monday, the Bengals finalized the three-year, $6 million deal for former Dolphins defensive lineman Bryan Robinson.

The agent for Bengals free-agent defensive lineman Carl Powell, Jerrold Colton, hasn’t changed his plans in the wake of the Robinson signing, indicating Monday he is exploring options with the Bengals, as well as other clubs.

Safety Anthony Mitchell’s agent is optimistic his client is going to re-sign with the Bengals, but says they are still working on the deal’s length.

[skyline]

I'm glad they aren't willing to overpay...

[schweinhart]

If Rudi is being offered anything like 4 yrs at $22 mill with an $8 mill signing bonus and not taking it because of agent advice, then he should fire his agent.

It's likely that the negotiations deteriorate around Jordan but the fact is that Jordan is an all-downs back whose presence on the field keeps a defense unbalanced because of his range of abilities.

Rudi is not an all-downs back. He has not developed receiving skills and I'm not sure he ever will. Still, I'd like to see a deal done that frees up another $2 mill in cap space this year.

[jjakq27]

If Rudi is being offered anything like 4 yrs at $22 mill with an $8 mill signing bonus and not taking it because of agent advice, then he should fire his agent.

It's likely that the negotiations deteriorate around Jordan but the fact is that Jordan is an all-downs back whose presence on the field keeps a defense unbalanced because of his range of abilities.

Rudi is not an all-downs back. He has not developed receiving skills and I'm not sure he ever will. Still, I'd like to see a deal done that frees up another $2 mill in cap space this year.

My personal feeling is that this would have been done a long time ago but his agent has been pressuring him to hold out as long as he can. Stuff like the Lamont Jordan deal didn't help matters either.

[HoosierCat]

I'm with Hobson on this one: I don't think the Jordan deal has anything to do with it. I think Rudi was asking for Portis-level coin from the start.

I'm also coming to doubt whether it has anything to do with Rudi's being or not being a "complete" back. Both Edge in Indy and Alexander in Seattle are "complete" types and they aren't getting the $50-60 million total, $12-15 million bonus deals they supposedly want, either.

I think what's happening is a league-wide phenomena: the RB position has simply maxxed itself out. The ability of teams to run the ball has been slowly but surely declining in importance ever since the introduction of the forward pass. The fullback position is already almost extinct; now teams are realizing that, while they will always need to run the ball at some level, "teams run when they win, not win when they run." A stud RB is no longer a requirement. It doesn't hurt, as long as it doesn't kill your cap, but as the Pats showed you can win it all with or without one.

We will see a lot more of this around the NFL as time goes on, methinks...

[bengalboomer7]

I assume that a difference in value means they are a least a mill a year. Or in other words, we are only offering him top 10-15 type money and he's holding out for something closer to top five. Not good, and Joisey is right, the value of running backs is plummeting, and Rudi may be trying to ride the money wave while he still can. Hopefully the Bengals won't cave and some compromise is reached

The question now is, not How bad Rudi wants to play for the Bengals like he says, but how bad he wants to get paid so he can retire after his football career is over.

[Kirkendall]

I think what's happening is a league-wide phenomena: the RB position has simply maxxed itself out.

Yes yes yes.

[HairOnFire]

A stud RB is no longer a requirement. It doesn't hurt, as long as it doesn't kill your cap, but as the Pats showed you can win it all with or without one.

But when given a choice the Patriots decided the best plan was to do whatever was required to get one. In fact, as that team begins to break up it is very likely the RB position that they will lean on more and more as it attempts to remain a Super Bowl contender.

For all of the misguided and premature offseason talk about teams being reluctant to pay the price to keep top backs on their roster, Seattle, Indy, and Cincy all defied predictions and used franchise tags to keep their current RB's off the FA market....with Cincy appearing more than willing to pay as much as 6 million plus for one season of work. Why? Because their playoff hopes demand it. Wthout a proven running game the Bengals current playoff dreams become delusional.

Sure, Seattle and Indy are predictably attempting to trade their tagged players for less compensation than face value suggests they might get, but lets not ignore the fact that if these teams ever find a trade partner...the bidding team that steps up will have to offer a package of draft picks before agreeing to pay dearly to sign their new RB. And perhaps a team will do just that...largely because the huge cost of producing a top running game is cost effective for a team that fancies itself a playoff contender.

More? In a bold attempt to become a playoff contender once again Oakland made an unproven backup RB one of the most expensive signings in all of Free Agency. If trends are changing then why didn't the Raiders try to fill the RB position with a coupon? Why agree to a deal that actually raises the market price of available running backs?

Quite frankly, there's not alot of facts that point to this being a cheaper market for running backs.

[Kirkendall]

Because their playoff hopes demand it. Wthout a proven running game the Bengals current playoff dreams become delusional.

Wasn't that the same argument about Dillon when he was around before handing the ball off to some no-name otherwise called Rudi at the time?

[BengalszoneBilly]

The question now is, not How bad Rudi wants to play for the Bengals like he says, but how bad he wants to get paid so he can retire after his football career is over.

Seeing as how the average RB's career in the NFL is 5 years or less, how can you blame the guy?

[HoosierCat]

Sure, Seattle and Indy are predictably attempting to trade their tagged players for less compensation than face value suggests they might get, but lets not ignore the fact that if these teams ever find a trade partner

Stop right there. Let's look at the last clause: "if these teams ever find a trade partner."

If the elite RB remains so critical...why are teams like Indy and Seattle, both of whom made the playoffs but not the Big Game last year, trying to trade away their backs? More to the point of that clause referenced above, why have they not found a trade partner? Reports indicate either could be had for as little as a second-round pick. The league is far from glutted with good backs. Why are so many teams willing to entrust their running game to an unknown draft pick this year -- a strategy that, if the Bengals followed it, would in your book, make any playoff dreams delusional?

As for the Jordan deal, it certainly seems Oakland overpaid for him...but his price is still well below that of Portis and what Edge and Alexander, and apparently Rudi, are asking. In other words, should he work out in Oakland, he's a bargain.

Whether there's a cheaper market for RBs remains to be seen. I never said that. What does appear to have happened is that a ceiling has been hit. What I would be very interested to know is, who would be the top 5 paid (aka franchise) RBs in 2005 if all three currently tagged RBs played under the 1-year tender? I can't recall there ever before being three players at the same spot all playing under the 1-year tag in the same year. That could conceivably cause the franchise tag price to actually fall...

[HairOnFire]

I'm with Hobson on this one: I don't think the Jordan deal has anything to do with it. I think Rudi was asking for Portis-level coin from the start.

I think Hobson is smoking a crack pipe. The Jordan deal definately impacts the Bengals ability to sign Rudi to a long term deal. Consider for a moment that the average yearly salary of Lamont's deal is now amazingly close to the franchise tender amount that Rudi has agreed to play for. The fact that the numbers are so close dramatically reduces the total savings the Bengals are likely to pocket by signing Rudi long term.....thereby increasing their willingness to pay Rudi under the terms of the franchise tender.

As for Rudi, he may indeed be asking for Portis money...but the Lamont Jordan contract does nothing to suggest that his thinking is flawed. That Jordan contract very likely strengthens his position and resolve. In fact, his agent said as much. Point blank.

[skyline]

Ok, if this doesn't get done...

I know they can't discuss a long term deal for quite a while. Are they allowed to trade him during this time? I would assume so, but I'm not 100% on it...

[HairOnFire]

If the elite RB remains so critical...why are teams like Indy and Seattle, both of whom made the playoffs but not the Big Game last year, trying to trade away their backs?

Because they don't want to pay the market price to keep what they already have. That, and their desire to salavage whatever trade value they can keep by trading away a player that market conditions dictate they can no longer afford.

What isn't at all clear is if these same teams will attempt to build in other ways should they ever manage to trade away their veteran running backs. My guess is that once shed of their expensive veterans these same teams will go right back to the running back well and will happily repeat the cycle. They'll sign their own expensive free agent OR draft a RB high in the coming draft. What they likely won't due is devalue the position by phasing out it's production in favor of yet another pass catcher.

In other words, I think it's less about a changing trend at the RB position and more about certain veteran players of elite status becoming too expensive for their parent team to sign to the extremely rich 2nd contracts that market conditions insist they should be worth. But here's the proverbial rub, because that's not position specific.

[HairOnFire]

More to the point of that clause referenced above, why have they not found a trade partner? Reports indicate either could be had for as little as a second-round pick.

That 2nd round pick is little more than the expensive price paid to get a bidders card because you've still got to meet the salary demands of the player you're interested in trading for. And far from being a cheap coupon driven marketplace, current conditions dictate that price is very high...even for unproven options. Last, despite their willingness to consider trades...I've seen nothing to make me think both of these teams don't strongly want to keep their current RB's if feasible.

I mean no disrespect, but I've seen nothing that suggests that writers like Hobson have their fingers squarely on the pulse of a new trend. Instead, what I see are writers and fans continuing to misjudge the market price for running backs.

[HairOnFire]

Wasn't that the same argument about Dillon when he was around before handing the ball off to some no-name otherwise called Rudi at the time?

I'll argue that paying Dillon what he was worth was pointless due to the fact that his presence on the Bengals changed nothing in a positive manner. He simply wasn't good enough individually to make those Bengal teams a playoff contender. More importantly he wasn't a team leader, wasn't a team player, and he spread cancer very much like a pack of unfiltered Afgan cigarettes. No, with Dillon this team proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was NEVER going anywhere but home. But this Bengal team is different, and Rudi Johnson is a different type of player.

Bottom Line: Doing whatever it takes to keep Rudi simply isn't the waste of time AND money that retaining Dillon was because Rudi makes THIS Bengal team much better.

[Kirkendall]

But when given a choice the Patriots decided the best plan was to do whatever was required to get one. In fact, as that team begins to break up it is very likely the RB position that they will lean on more and more as it attempts to remain a Super Bowl contender.

This is a bad example and doesn't reflect the NFL as a whole. Firstly, the Pats won 2 Super Bowls before aquiring Dillon. Secondly, they were already actively looking for a more permanent solution than their failed RB by committee. Dillon became available, they took him and improved their team. But it doesn't reflect the argument presented here.

For all of the misguided and premature offseason talk about teams being reluctant to pay the price to keep top backs on their roster, Seattle, Indy, and Cincy all defied predictions and used franchise tags to keep their current RB's off the FA market

The franchise was used because they can get results out of it. Either a reduced annual salary favorable to the salary cap, or a return investment -- all of which is dictated by ownership. Don't get me wrong, these guys are very good RB's, but are 1/22nd of a single team.

If the elite RB remains so critical...why are teams like Indy and Seattle, both of whom made the playoffs but not the Big Game last year, trying to trade away their backs?

I guess a more accurate question with this argument is why they haven't won a big game with above mentioned running backs.

As for Rudi, he may indeed be asking for Portis money...but the Lamont Jordan contract does nothing to suggest that his thinking is flawed. That Jordan contract very likely strengthens his position and resolve.

I agree about 50/50 here. I'm sure too that Jordan encouraged Schaffer to see how much he can milk the team for. But I'm also sure, that both the Bengals and Schaffer know Oakland OVERPAYS everyone. I.E. a ridiculous Jordan deal included with last year's Sapp deal. I'm sure all the above is in the minds of our brass.

What they likely won't due is devalue the position by phasing out it's production in favor of yet another pass catcher.

This I think is a mistake. I think if you put a lot of your eggs on a RB that can catch, then somewhere along the line, the actual responsibility of running through the line, over people, twisting and turning gets overlooked and the offense is therefore forced to revolve around that. It's nice to have a RB that can catch, but I'd 1,000 times more want a RB that can get 3rd and 1 and never have to worry about a LB blitzing free -- blocking RB over a catching RB anyday.

I mean no disrespect, but I've seen nothing that suggests that writers like Hobson have their fingers squarely on the pulse of a new trend. Instead, what I see are writers and fans continuing to misjudge the market price for running backs.

Nah, it's the spirit of the discussion.

[OICanDoThat]

I'm with Hobson on this one: I don't think the Jordan deal has anything to do with it. I think Rudi was asking for Portis-level coin from the start.

I don't know about this, there were quotes from Schaeffer around the time of the tagging that the offer on the table that he had proposed was under the cap figure. he is not asking for Portis type money per se, but he is asking for a considerable amount nevertheless. I do think the Jordan deal affirms Schaeffer's demands for the magical 5.25+ number a year, weakening the Bengals bargaining power. I think the Bengals wanted Rudi for 4.5 per, but there is no chance for that now. Damn Raiders screw us over again.

Regarding Rudi's love for the Bengals, if he really loved them, he would realize he could retire on the money he makes in one season, and be set for life. He should not try and max out the budget, or the Bengals can't field a team around him. Seems to me a perfect example of a "good guy" playing the fans and media to a T. I'm not doubting the clout of Rudi's character, just that his motives are far more than the team first attitude many preach of on this site.

[kingwilly]

The Lamont Jordan deal most definately impacts the Rudi situation. In fact, it works against what the Bengals are showing is their position (Overpaying) because it sets another bearing point that triangluates what Rudi should be paid.

This is really just simple math ($) as aligned with talent compared to other math ($) and talent in the league. If talent A gets x$ then talent b gets z$.

The reason some of these teams are so willing to put their prized RB's on the block, is because of the CAP situation and the effort it takes to make the CAP work to their advantage in addressing the short-comings of their teams. Example, Indy has a potent offense and Edge is a big part. But what holds them back is their defense. Edge's contract situation (Tagged) ties up money that could be better spent on D and the loss of Edge could be addressed by Rhodes and the draft, of which they would gain at least a 2nd round pick by moving him. The market for Edge $'s is tight because of the Cap as well. If I were in Indy, I'd move Edge ASAP.

The Rdui story has its share of "what the market will bear" and if a deal is not done, I'd look to see if he can be traded and for these reasons.

1. While Perry is hurt (Again) we know nothing of his ability or inabilty to produce at the NFL level. He could be very good, seriously. How can he be a bust when he has zip for playing time?

2. ANOTHER RB can be had in the draft, might I suggest the monster from Southern Ill....

3. There are FA out there who also could be had for less. Anthony Thomas can be has for less than half of what Rudi wants, Najeh Davenport or even Dayne (needs a kick in the ass).

4. Should we get desperate, we could offer Rudi straight up for Travis Henry.

[BengalszoneBilly]

If the elite RB remains so critical...why are teams like Indy and Seattle, both of whom made the playoffs but not the Big Game last year, trying to trade away their backs?

I guess a more accurate question with this argument is why they haven't won a big game with above mentioned running backs.

The answer I see is that it's nothing to do with the runninning backs. It's their individual teams lack of adequate defenses to get the ball back into their offense's hands so the aforementioned running backs can do what they're paid to do!

Manning and James can have career years each and every season, but neither will wear a ring until the Colts can muster up some defense!

[HoosierCat]

Because they don't want to pay the market price to keep what they already have

Which is another way of saying what I've already said: a ceiling has been reached. And the lack of interest in them around the league, even at the bargain price of a second-round pick, indicates that teams like Indy, Seattle, and Cincy aren't alone in their thinking.

What they likely won't due is devalue the position by phasing out it's production in favor of yet another pass catcher.

I agree, and nowhere did I say anything of the sort. They will simply opt for less expensive and possibly less talented backs, most likely as part of a committee of RBs.

I think it's less about a changing trend at the RB position and more about certain veteran players of elite status becoming too expensive for their parent team to sign to the extremely rich 2nd contracts that market conditions insist they should be worth.

Again, another way of saying what I've already said. Once the market conditions hit a point where the buyer is no longer willing to pay, you've maxxed out. Hit the ceiling. Market value is only worthwhile when there's a market, i.e. someone willing to pay.

[HairOnFire]

This is a bad example and doesn't reflect the NFL as a whole. Firstly, the Pats won 2 Super Bowls before aquiring Dillon. Secondly, they were already actively looking for a more permanent solution than their failed RB by committee. Dillon became available, they took him and improved their team. But it doesn't reflect the argument presented here.

Blame Joisey if it's a bad example. He brought the Patriots up. All I've done is point out that New England ignored far cheaper options and upgraded their run attack by trading a high draft pick for a proven RB. Quite frankly, the only reason this example doesn't fit as well as some others is due to the reasonable salary Dillon had to accept due to his well established reputation for being a miserable chit-filled skin bag. But his example does fit the argument when the issue being discussed is the desire of competitive teams to feature a strong running game and what they'll do to make it happen.

[HoosierCat]

More to the point of that clause referenced above, why have they not found a trade partner? Reports indicate either could be had for as little as a second-round pick.

That 2nd round pick is little more than the expensive price paid to get a bidders card because you've still got to meet the salary demands of the player you're interested in trading for.

...and the number of teams willing to meet that price appears to be...zero. Which only goes to strengthen my argument that this is about more than just the specific players and specific teams (or the cap, as willy suggests). I find it notable as well that even the current Super Bowl champs have made no move to redo their stud RB's deal, whose cap hit will exceed $6 million this year, either.

[HairOnFire]

I'm sure too that Jordan encouraged Schaffer to see how much he can milk the team for. But I'm also sure, that both the Bengals and Schaffer know Oakland OVERPAYS everyone. I.E. a ridiculous Jordan deal included with last year's Sapp deal. I'm sure all the above is in the minds of our brass.

Frankly, so what? The Bengals can attempt to belittle the Jordan contract, but they can't make it go away anymore than they can ignore the Portis contract. The market price for young running backs capable of putting up Rudi-like numbers seems to be climbing...not falling...and it's pointless to assume that you can somehow get your player to settle for less by pointing out just how silly you feel those other contracts might have been.

[HairOnFire]

Which is another way of saying what I've already said: a ceiling has been reached.

Our positions aren't the same. You're arguing that things that are true of an individual like Edge James are also true of the very position he plays. I disagree strongly.

I guess we can long debate whether or not a 2nd round pick is the bargain price you seem to think...or the costly opening bid of a far more expensive play, but the Jordan deal clearly points to a rising cost for promising young running backs. In fact, the only way you can say that the ceiling has been reached is to completely ignore that deal...as Hobson insists is possible.....something I don't think Rudi's agent is going to allow.