Same Ol' Bengals?

[HoosierCat]

Found this (regarding TJ) on bengals.com. :sigh:

The Bengals aren’t about to give him the money of the Colts’ Brandon Stokley (figure about $3.5 million per year), but if they can give him something that will convince him not to go on a market where he might get it, the deal might be able to get done by Wednesday.

"Something"??? Like what, a little gold star to go on his helmet? A double-sized locker? His picture on a little plaque in the PBS lobby with "employee of the month" written above it? Bottom line: the above says is that $3.5 million is market value for TJ and the Bengals won't pay market value. How long, oh Lord...?

Forgive me, but unless there are some big developments in the next couple days, it's looking like same s**t, different year in Bengaldom. Have we restructured (like Willie) to free up cap room? Nope. Have we cut loose any overpaid and underperforming players (Hardy, Reggie Kelley)? Nope. Other teams have done this, readying for FA. Heck, some have already jumped on the cuts, made trades, etc.

But not our Bengals. Same lackadasical drift into FA. Same protestations of poverty. Same refusal to pay market value. Yet another tagged played dragging behind the team like an anchor. And yet another .500 or so season looming on the horizon...

[skyline]

Little dramatic, don't you think?

I thought we all agreed a while back that overpaying players was more typical of the old Bengals than letting them move along their way.

I feel as if we could let T.J. walk, and still be playoff contenders next year. I think it shows you that we are anything BUT the same old Bengals when you can say that letting a player go isn't going to equal certain doom. We finally have some depth that allows us to consider all the options rather than overpaying someone out of desperation.

[BengalsDieHard1]

Come on, we're talking about TJ...arent we??? A decent season..out of what..3-4??? And he wants #1 receiver money now???? Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HoosierCat]

I thought we all agreed a while back that overpaying players was more typical of the old Bengals than letting them move along their way.

How is paying market value overpaying?

[AGrizzlyBaer]

come on 3.5 million a year for him... no way!

[HoosierCat]

Come on, we're talking about TJ...arent we??? A decent season..out of what..3-4??? And he wants #1 receiver money now???? Seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, we aren't talking about TJ, we're talking about the Bengals declining to pay the going rate to a player. SSDD. If you want to talk about TJ there are several threads on that already, where I'll be happy to respond.

[CTBengalsFan]

I don't think TJ or Stokley are worth $3.5 a year. I wouldn't use the Colts as the rule of thumb for how much to pay your offensive players, either.

[HoosierCat]

I don't think TJ or Stokley are worth $3.5 a year.  I wouldn't use the Colts as the rule of thumb for how much to pay your offensive players, either.

Well, maybe they are and maybe they aren't worth that much...but that doesn't change the fact that that's the going rate. I don't think a 12-pack of MGD is worth the $9 my local beer store sells it for, but that doesn't mean I can go up to the register and get it for $5.

As for the Colts setting the market, hey, Mikey could have been proactive & set the market himself. But again, that's SOP at PBS. Sit back and wait, gawd forbid they "overpay." So now they're stuck.

The point I'm trying to make is this: if the Bengals won't pay the market rate for TJ, why should we think they'll pay the market rate for any FA? And that would indeed be same ol' Bengals. Watch FA go by, complain about the high price tags, and then sweep up a few leftovers. Hey, I hear Michael Westbrook was looking to make a comeback...

[skyline]

Last I checked, we were paying a few players quite generously.

Also, when you say this isn't about TJ, you're wrong. It's entirely about TJ. Whether or not you want to pay a player their market value depends 100% on that particular player and how much they're worth to you. TJ isn't important enough to this team to warrant market value, if the market value means spending 3.5 million dollars.

You can't expect the Bengals to pay market value for every player they have. There are some areas of the team where the need warrants that money, and others where the need isn't so great.

When referring to TJ in this situation...I love him, but we don't have to have him.

Now, if we were letting someone like Chad Johnson walk, or Carson Palmer, then I'd have a problem with it.

[HoosierCat]

Also, when you say this isn't about TJ, you're wrong. It's entirely about TJ. Whether or not you want to pay a player their market value depends 100% on that particular player and how much they're worth to you. TJ isn't important enough to this team to warrant market value, if the market value means spending 3.5 million dollars.

Translation: I think TJ isn't worth $3.5 million. Couch it however you want, but that's what it boils down to. And again, that's beside the point. The price is the price. You want to spend $5 on a 12-pack, you're gonna have to settle for Nati Light.

As for spending market value for every player they have...again, not the issue. If you want to be a player in FA, you have to be willing to pay the real, live, actual going rate...not just what you think the player is worth. The latter approach has been the Bengals traditional one, and we all know how far that's gotten them.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I'm with Joisey. The Bengals have no problem paying a slouch like Hardy $3.5 a year, but when it comes to re-signing one of their proven draft picks they always expect them to take less to play here and drag out negotiations like crazy.

I'm sure Chad has some regrets about taking his slightly under-market value deal as well at this point.

I don't know why people are so quick to be Mike Brown apologists, the fact is there a some things they still have not changed and Marvin is not some kind of holy person just because he's a competent coach.

If I'm another player on that team and are watching what Rudi and TJ have to do in order to get re-signed, I'm thinking the Brown family doesn't give a shi$ about me as a player or what I do for them and would be on the first plane out of town like Spikes and Dillon.

[HoosierCat]

I'm with Joisey.

Now I'm sure the world is coming to an end...

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Now I'm sure the world is coming to an end...

Nah just means you are right for once.

[HoosierCat]

Now I'm sure the world is coming to an end...

Nah just means you are right for once.

Shoot, that just confirms it!

[skyline]

Also, when you say this isn't about TJ, you're wrong.  It's entirely about TJ.  Whether or not you want to pay a player their market value depends 100% on that particular player and how much they're worth to you.  TJ isn't important enough to this team to warrant market value, if the market value means spending 3.5 million dollars.

Translation: I think TJ isn't worth $3.5 million. Couch it however you want, but that's what it boils down to. And again, that's beside the point. The price is the price. You want to spend $5 on a 12-pack, you're gonna have to settle for Nati Light.

Bad analogy.

Try this one on...

I am willing to pay 10 dollars to eat at Skyline Chili. I'm not willing to pay 10 dollars to eat at Gold Star.

They're both Cincinnati Chili...their market value may be 10 dollars. One I'm willing to pay for...the other I'm not.

I think you're getting way too worked up over one sentence. It seems painfully obvious to me that this franchise is finally headed in the right direction. Whether or not they want to pay 3.5 million for T.J. Houshmanzadeh is not going to concern me all that much.

[schweinhart]

It seems painfully obvious to me that this franchise is finally headed in the right direction. Whether or not they want to pay 3.5 million for T.J. Houshmanzadeh is not going to concern me all that much.

I gotta second this...this ain't the same old Bengals, Housh or no Housh.

And I'll add Rudi or no Rudi

[glnwf]

I really don't see TJ being the deciding factor in going to the playoffs or not. To pay him $3.5M per yr, I think Not!, the draft looks better and hungrier than that. My2 cents anyway. :player:

[walshfan]

Also, when you say this isn't about TJ, you're wrong.  It's entirely about TJ.  Whether or not you want to pay a player their market value depends 100% on that particular player and how much they're worth to you.  TJ isn't important enough to this team to warrant market value, if the market value means spending 3.5 million dollars.

Translation: I think TJ isn't worth $3.5 million. Couch it however you want, but that's what it boils down to. And again, that's beside the point. The price is the price. You want to spend $5 on a 12-pack, you're gonna have to settle for Nati Light.

As for spending market value for every player they have...again, not the issue. If you want to be a player in FA, you have to be willing to pay the real, live, actual going rate...not just what you think the player is worth. The latter approach has been the Bengals traditional one, and we all know how far that's gotten them.

Your assuming the Bengals wanted TJ at the going rate....I don't think they do..I believe they'll sign him if its less than the going rate to save money for other expenditures... Lets say the going rate is 3.5 mil.. If they can sign him for 2.5 mil they have thatl much more for their rookie pool if they want to move down in the draft.. If they have backed into a 3.5 proposal from TJ's agent they'll let him walk and sign another wideout to replace him or add that money to their cap money and sign a DT... Lots of possibilities on the horizon.. Be patient, Marvin knows what he's doing.....

[HoosierCat]

I am willing to pay 10 dollars to eat at Skyline Chili.  I'm not willing to pay 10 dollars to eat at Gold Star.

They're both Cincinnati Chili...their market value may be 10 dollars.  One I'm willing to pay for...the other I'm not.

Right...but then you're still paying the $10 for a plate of chili. Are the Bengals willing to pay $3.5 million for a just-short-of-1,000-yards-last-year No. 2 receiver, no matter what his name is? Apparently not, even tho that's the price tag such players are carrying this year. What they are willing to do, to use your analogy, is to pay $5 for a coney. Or, more likely, just drive past the chili parlor, go home, open up the pantry and "go to dinner with what we have."

I think you're getting way too worked up over one sentence. It seems painfully obvious to me that this franchise is finally headed in the right direction.

First of all, it isn't just one sentence. The Bengals' overall activities this offseason have almost exactly duplicated their vague drift from last year. Once again they are tight against the cap -- and once again they make none of the obvious moves to deal with that, instead using it as an excuse as to why they can't pay players the going rate.

Is this team going in the right direction? It certainly has been, but the "low-hanging fruit" has been plucked now. The cancers have been cut out. The no-talents and underperformers have been ejected. Young talent and veteran leadership have been infused into the team. Competent coaching and conditioning staff have been put in place. In short, we've gotten up on the same playing field as most of the rest of the NFL -- which gets you right where we are, 8-8.

This is the time to be consolidating the talent we do have, and adding those one or two pieces we need to make the leap into the playoffs. Instead it's tag Rudi, let TJ go, and don't do much in FA because we only have $2 million to play with. Like I said to begin with: sigh.

[jjakq27]

Found this (regarding TJ) on bengals.com. :sigh:

The Bengals aren’t about to give him the money of the Colts’ Brandon Stokley (figure about $3.5 million per year), but if they can give him something that will convince him not to go on a market where he might get it, the deal might be able to get done by Wednesday.

"Something"??? Like what, a little gold star to go on his helmet? A double-sized locker? His picture on a little plaque in the PBS lobby with "employee of the month" written above it? Bottom line: the above says is that $3.5 million is market value for TJ and the Bengals won't pay market value. How long, oh Lord...?

Forgive me, but unless there are some big developments in the next couple days, it's looking like same s**t, different year in Bengaldom. Have we restructured (like Willie) to free up cap room? Nope. Have we cut loose any overpaid and underperforming players (Hardy, Reggie Kelley)? Nope. Other teams have done this, readying for FA. Heck, some have already jumped on the cuts, made trades, etc.

But not our Bengals. Same lackadasical drift into FA. Same protestations of poverty. Same refusal to pay market value. Yet another tagged played dragging behind the team like an anchor. And yet another .500 or so season looming on the horizon...

TJ has had one good year. I think Brandon Stokley won a Super Bowl with the Ravens before TJ was even in the NFL. Hardly apples to apples in my opinion.

[TippCityRick]

Stokley is not an apt comparison for TJ. Stokley has had many years of production where TJ has had one. Besides I agree with whoever said it before, I wouldn't look to the Colts to put value on offensive players. When they can balance offense and defense, then I will pay attention. I believe this is what the Bengals are trying to do a la the Patriots and the Eagles.

Marvin has put a value on TJ and will not pay over that value. It is the correct way to position a team in the salary cap era.

[ckj414]

How is paying market value overpaying?

The same way that buying Yahoo for $300 per share back in the '90s was overpaying - 'market value' isn't a synonym for 'fairly priced' or, more importantly, a 'good investment'.

I think $3.5 mil for TJ is over the top. Throwing money at guys like him who have only produced for one season is how teams get in cap heII.

[HoosierCat]

How is paying market value overpaying? 

The same way that buying Yahoo for $300 per share back in the '90s was overpaying - 'market value' isn't a synonym for 'fairly priced' or, more importantly, a 'good investment'.

I think $3.5 mil for TJ is over the top. Throwing money at guys like him who have only produced for one season is how teams get in cap heII.

Once again, whether it's a "fair price" or not is immaterial. It's the price. $300 may not have been a fair price for yahoo, but if you wanted a share, that's what you had to pay.

As to whether it would be a good investment, who knows? But the "he's only had one good year" argument is -- to put it plainly -- bulls**t, for a number of reasons.

For one thing, TJ has only played the No. 2 role for 1 season. Before that he was the No. 3 wideout, and his performance in that role was fine. He was asked to step up last season, and did. Now people want to use that against him?

Another point that might be made is that his presumptive replacement at No. 2, Peter Warrick has only had one good season, too. Prior to 2003 he was widely labeled a bust. Rudi Johnson, who many think deserves a $5 million/year average contract, is another Bengal with "one good year." He was almost cut a couple offseasons back!

The reality is that we have a lot of young players, courtesy of the roster purge undertaken by Marvin. There are going to be a lot of guys with short pedigrees. You cannot develop talent when you are not committed to keeping talent. I didn't make a fuss when we dumped Dillon and let Takeo walk; we were clearly rebuilding and I figured if the team was going to rebuild in might as well go the whole way. But that phase is coming to a close now. We have a competitive team with a good mix of vets and young players, and the best move they could make is to keep that together.

[oldschooler]

In TJ`s 1st three seasons...he had 62 catches for 720 yards and 1 TD.

Yeah I know he was injured his 3rd season. But he was still getting paid.

And he was around the team learning the playbook and stuff.

In 2 seasons Kelley Washington has 53 catches for 677 yards and 7 TD`s.

TJ is wanting about $3+ million and it looks like some team will probably

pay him that.

Kelley Washington is slated to make about $500,000 this year.

He is going to be playing the last year of his contract out.

He is already on the roster and counting against the cap.

By not signing TJ the Bengals could have $3 million + to spend on other areas.

They could allow K-Wash (a Marvin draft pick) to show his stuff and whether

or not he is worthy of re-signing in 2006. He put up better numbers than TJ had

his 1st three seasons. ( TJ had 11.6 yards per catch...K-Wash averaged 12.8)

He is more of a scoring threat. He has the size and speed to be everything

TJ was and MORE.

And they could draft a WR this year....plus Marvin stocked up on WR`s late

in the season last year for some reason.

People always say..."well TJ beat out K-Wash for the #2 spot last season."

And to that I say....The Bengals were starting basically a Rookie QB.

Of course you would go with a guy that had been in the system 3 years (TJ)

(spending a year doing nothing but studying the playbook) over a guy

that had been in the system for 1 year. (K-Wash)

All TJ did was run good routes and catch balls thrown to him. (something

any Pro WR SHOULD do)

He didn`t get in the endzone much at all when you look at how many catches

he had. (73 catches ...4 TD`s) As a comparison Matt Schobel had 4 TD`s

with only 21 catches.

K-Wash had a better average per catch...and 600% MORE TD`s than TJ

with 1 less start.

Take into account that TJ is going to cost

at least 2 million MORE than what we are going to be paying K-Wash.

TJ is not worth the asking price ...if he was and he wants to be a Bengal

like he says ...then he would ALREADY BE signed.

And to even "think" that these are the "same ole Bengals"

is asinine.

[HoosierCat]

It's funny. Just yesterday I was looking over the game thread from the Baltimore victory, and about every third post is "HOOOOOSH!" or something similar.

How soon they forget.

All TJ did was run good routes and catch balls thrown to him

Yeah. All he did.