More reason to think Rudi will be gone

[HairOnFire]

Well, of course, we have to see if they actually make Perry the starter first...but if they do, it's on.

C'mon, show a little faith in your boy.

I didn't hesitate to accept the proposed bet even though you tweaked the terms from total rushing yards to combined all purpose yards. And that's potentially a big deal, right? Combined rushing and receiving yardage, right? Or do we include kick return yardage too? And if we did, just how weak would that be? Regardless, if Perry isn't named the starter then it's been determined by the Bengals that he's an inferior starting option OR was once again too wounded to answer the bell when it rang.

So it seems to me that if Perry isn't named the starter you've already lost the argument. So why wait to make the bet?

[HoosierCat]

Rushing and receiving yardage, that's all. The only reason I tweaked it to total yards is that Perry has far greater receiving skills than Rudi, and so I expect that more of the plays in which his number is called will be passes. I don't see why that should frighten you, however. Even in the best of times, Bengals RBs historically only get 200-300 yards through the air, meaning Perry would have to rumble for at least 1,200+ on the ground for me to win -- and even Corey Dillon didn't put up those kind of numbers in his rookie year.

As for the question of whether Perry starts, that was in the original bet I proposed, which you -- and I quote -- "didn't hesitate to accept." If he starts, the bet is on, if not, it's off.

[HairOnFire]

I don't see why that should frighten you, however.

It didn't. My only concern dealt with all-purpose yardage including kick return yardage. Frankly, I'd hate to lose a bet about the relative merits of starting running back options because Perry got a punt retrun somewhere.

I see I couldn't bait you into agreeing to make the bet now. Fair enough. I admit it was a shameless ploy, but we've known each other for a long time and you'd expect nothing else from me, right?

So, what will it be....single-malt or Corona? I vote single-malt. Give me a price range and I'll pick my brand.

[HoosierCat]

Single-malt works for me. What's your label?

[HairOnFire]

It's never been my brand, but I'm sure you're aware that I'm still waiting for Furnier to pay off our ancient wager by sending me a bottle of Lagavulin 12 year old. Seems like a natural, eh?

[HoosierCat]

Heh heh heh. Okay, works for me!

[chrishcovga]

OK, OK already, so what do we get in return for him....? Who's gonna give up 2 first rounders if we Franchise him...??

What do we take as proper compensation for a 1400 yard back with 12 touchdowns..?

How much are we willing to pay him in the Long run if we keep him...? So far I haven't heard any answers to these questions yet, which leads me to think, Most of you think Rudi Johnson will be a Bengal in '05 !!

Note : I heard recently ( from another one of those unsubstantiated sources ) that the offer being mulled by Rudi and his agent is a 6 year contract worth 30 million dollars.

30% signing bonus balanced out is 9 million at 1.5 million per year. Making the Contract 6 years 21 million. Base pay of 3.5 mil per.

Ok by a show of hands...? Is a 24 year old 1400 yard running back with 2400 yards in 21 career starts worth 5 million a year..??? Sounds about right to me. :player:

[Kirkendall]

How much are we willing to pay him in the Long run if we keep him...?

Less than the quarterback.

Let me explain.

The Bengals ran 971 offensive plays. Rudi touched the ball 376 times. That's 39% of all offensive plays in which Rudi touched the ball. The Bengals total offensive yardage totals (to around, not exact) 5,359 yards. Rudi, both rushing and receiving) accounted for 1,538 yards. That's 29% -- rounded up of course.

Since Carson touches the ball, 100% of the time, barring injury, with both (receiving and rushing touches) less than 40%, there's no way Rudi should get anything close to what Carson is earning. That's good sound fiscal management -- albeit, sounding a little like it’s from the School of Mike Brown though

[membengal]

OK, OK already, so what do we get in return for him....? Who's gonna give up 2 first rounders if we Franchise him...??

What do we take as proper compensation for a 1400 yard back with 12 touchdowns..?

How much are we willing to pay him in the Long run if we keep him...? So far I haven't heard any answers to these questions yet, which leads me to think, Most of you think Rudi Johnson will be a Bengal in '05 !!

Note : I heard recently ( from another one of those unsubstantiated sources ) that the offer being mulled by Rudi and his agent is a 6 year contract worth 30 million dollars.

30% signing bonus balanced out is 9 million at 1.5 million per year. Making the Contract 6 years 21 million. Base pay of 3.5 mil per.

Ok by a show of hands...? Is a 24 year old 1400 yard running back with 2400 yards in 21 career starts worth 5 million a year..??? Sounds about right to me. :player:

RJ at $5 million per still feels like a little too much if I had my way, but I wouldn't yell about it if they offered it. I would just hope it wouldn't hamstring them in terms of keeping TJ or getting a DT.

If your info is correct, and they have seriously offered RJ that contract and he turns it down? Bye bye. Good luck in free agency. Seriously, there has to be some relation between his contract and the needs of the overall team to fill holes elsewhere.

[bengalboomer7]

It may sound nitpicky, but I wish about 2-3 mill gets knocked off that deal.

[HoosierCat]

OK, OK already, so what do we get in return for him....?  

In all liklihood, it's either him or nothing. Despite the talk of a franchise-and-trade scenario, I believe its against the tag rules to tag someone with the express purpose of trading them.

Who's gonna give up 2 first rounders if we Franchise him...??

Nobody. Shoot, it'd be cheaper to go after Brian Westbrook (RFA).

What do we take as proper compensation for a 1400 yard back with 12 touchdowns..?

Quite some time ago, I said I wouldn't go over $5 million per. Frankly I'd like to cap it at $4 million or so but the extra mil wouldn't kill the team. But once the numbers start to climb above the $5 million mark then, depending on who else is out there in FA the Bengals might want to broaden their horizons. Or just roll the dice on Perry.

How much are we willing to pay him in the Long run if we keep him...?

The purported deal you describe is a bit pricier than I'd like, but doable, especially if they backload the salary a bit and the total includes all possible incentives. Personally, I would wave buh-bye to Rudi at that price...but it's Marvin's butt, not mine, on the line (at least for more than a bottle of booze!) if Perry flops.

[shworge]

OK, OK already, so what do we get in return for him....? Who's gonna give up 2 first rounders if we Franchise him...??

What do we take as proper compensation for a 1400 yard back with 12 touchdowns..?

How much are we willing to pay him in the Long run if we keep him...? So far I haven't heard any answers to these questions yet, which leads me to think, Most of you think Rudi Johnson will be a Bengal in '05 !!

Note : I heard recently ( from another one of those unsubstantiated sources ) that the offer being mulled by Rudi and his agent is a 6 year contract worth 30 million dollars.

30% signing bonus balanced out is 9 million at 1.5 million per year. Making the Contract 6 years 21 million. Base pay of 3.5 mil per.

Ok by a show of hands...? Is a 24 year old 1400 yard running back with 2400 yards in 21 career starts worth 5 million a year..??? Sounds about right to me. :player:

You are looking at the final numbers, not how he got there. Rudi Johnson is not a 5 million dollar back. He is a durable, middle of the pack talent wise back. If he wants over 4 million I say good riddance.

A healthy Chris Perry would make this offense much more dynamic... or pay Lamont Jordan 3 million a year, he can pound it between the tackles, average almost 5 yards per carry and is great catching the ball out of the backfield.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Or just roll the dice on Perry.

***shake-shake*** ***nervous-nervous***

but it's Marvin's butt, not mine, on the line (at least for more than a bottle of booze!) if Perry flops.

And if he does continue flopping like a big fish out of water, a couple stiff shots of booze will help ease those shakes!

[Beaker]

Same thing people were saying about Palmer last yr. We need to stick with Kitna, Plamer is unproven. Just goes to show the coaches know way more than the fans. If ML lets Rudi walk...so what.

[HairOnFire]

Ok by a show of hands...? Is a 24 year old 1400 yard running back with 2400 yards in 21 career starts worth 5 million a year..??? Sounds about right to me. :player:

To the surprise of probably nobody, yeah...I've got my hand up. Due to uncertainty at this position I'm already on record stating that I'd be willing to pay more than 5 million for a single season of service. Simply put, I've never agreed with the idea that quality RB's are just plug-and-play types. Easier to replace than many other positions? Sure, but let's not overstate things. That's a critical position, and I'm not compelled to look for bargains when we're talking about retaining a young player playing at a high level with only two years of NFL wear. In fact, I find the position to be so critical that I can ALMOST justify the selection of a 1st round RB for reasons of depth and role playing only.

And along those same lines, if I read things correctly it's being claimed that the numbers provided represent the Bengals offer currently being considered by Perry and his agent, right? If so, doesn't the size and length of the contract being offered by the Bengals leave very little doubt that Perry was drafted first and foremost to add exceptional depth and provide a pass catching 3rd down role? Never mind if Rudi accepts the offer or not or if Perry eventually proves he's capable of doing more. If the Bengals are willing to offer Rudi this type of contract then hasn't the planned role for Perry become abundantly clear?

Ehhh?

[The Brew Man]

Man, I hope they can make this work. Hes a good kid I think we need to hang on to....

[BengalszoneBilly]

Man, I hope they can make this work. Hes a good kid I think we need to hang on to....

I know Marvin, and I know Marvin likes players like Rudi, and most of all:

:player: :player: :player: In Marvin I Trust!! :player: :player: :player:

I'm trusting Marvin this time work it out to keep Rudi without crushing the team financially.

........................... :player: :player: :player:

[HoosierCat]

And along those same lines, if I read things correctly it's being claimed that the numbers provided represent the Bengals offer currently being considered by Perry and his agent, right? If so, doesn't the size and length of the contract being offered by the Bengals leave very little doubt that Perry was drafted first and foremost to add exceptional depth and provide a pass catching 3rd down role?

Not necessarily. I think it quite likely that their intention was to move Perry into the No. 1 slot. The fact that he could also be a high-quality and low-cost 3rd down/change-of-pace guy was a bonus, not the point of the pick. The most likely reason to offer a long-term deal to Rudi now is simply a lack of confidence in Perry since he hasn't been able to play.

[HairOnFire]

Not necessarily. I think it quite likely that their intention was to move Perry into the No. 1 slot. The fact that he could also be a high-quality and low-cost 3rd down/change-of-pace guy was a bonus, not the point of the pick. The most likely reason to offer a long-term deal to Rudi now is simply a lack of confidence in Perry since he hasn't been able to play.

Why would the Bengals overreact financially to a potential outcome that completely unconcerns so many of you?

In my opinion, a Bengal contract offer of that length and size all but confirms that they always viewed Rudi as the long term starter they intend to build their running game around. Meanwhile, that same master plan likely dictated that Perry provides the exceptional depth so many teams lacks while immediately getting substantial playing time in the backfield pass catching role that stretches defenses. Rudi starts. Perry plays. Hammer and sword. You're born with TWO fists, right?

I guess we're all seeing this play out in the direction we were already leaning toward. For my part, I've always looked at Rudi as the must have building block with Perry in the secondary luxury role. Others see Rudi as the luxury the Bengals can't afford to pay market value to....an opinion that I think takes a fairly serious hit if the Bengals really did make a contract proposal of that size and length.

But regardless of how you feel about the RB's in question...the key point to consider is the commitment to the running game being shown. No coupons are being clipped. Instead, huge assets are apparently being willingly targeted for a position that sportswriters would have you believe is no longer of critical importance in todays game.

[BengalszoneBilly]

In my opinion, a Bengal contract offer of that length and size all but confirms that they always viewed Rudi as the long term starter they intend to build their running game around.

I'd have to say that was their intention when they got rid of Dillon. Why change it a year later. They knew then too that he'd be in this position now. This isn't suddenly a surprise.

Meanwhile, that same master plan likely dictated that Perry provides the exceptional depth so many teams lacks while immediately getting substantial playing time in the backfield pass catching role that stretches defenses. Rudi starts. Perry plays. Hammer and sword. You're born with TWO fists, right?

We are born with two fists, but the truth is everyone hits harder with one than the other. At this point the harder hitter is obviously Rudi. Perry would be like hitting with your weak hand...after you laid on it wrong for a couple hours and it's dead asleep!

[HoosierCat]

In my opinion, a Bengal contract offer of that length and size all but confirms that they always viewed Rudi as the long term starter they intend to build their running game around.

If so, why didn't they sign him to a long-term deal last year? Not just last Feb or March, but if they see him as 'the man," where was the big bucks deal in October or November or December? Hell, if he's the man, where's the big bucks deal now? Chrish's reported $30 million, 6-year deal doesn't even qualify as top 10 money.

If the Bengals really wanted to keep Rudi, they could drop a 6 year, $50 million deal on his head today that would at worst chew up slightly more cap space over the first three years than a $30 million deal structured in typical Bengals fashion (i.e. spread things out as evenly as possible).

$30 million inc. $9 million SB (chrish) = $5 million/year, $19.5 million over 1st 3 years.

$50 million inc. $12 million SB = $8.3 million/year, salaries of $1, 3, 5 million 1st 3 years = $21 million 1st 3 years.

Cap hits: 5, 5, 5 in deal 1; 3, 5, 7 in deal 2.

The only difference between the two deals is that No. 2 is going to be restructured in 2-3 years, because the back half of it is money everyone knows won't be seen. It's ego-puffer, but that seems to go a long way these days.

Frankly, we will find out just what the Bengals think of Rudi (and possibly Perry as well) by whether they drop the franchise tag on him. If they don't, as I just demonstrated, it will be very easy for someone who is interested to put together a "big money" deal.

[DontPushMe]

If rudi johnson gets anything more then 1.5M a year it will be a terrible deal.

You guys see numbers and get all weak at the knees because of it, luckily i beleive Ml is smarter then that. LaMont Jordan is ranked ahead of rudi on every FA ranking list i have seen this offseason, should he be paid 5M+ as well? What about players like LT? Jeez, if Rudi Johnson is worth 5M a year, LT will cost the chargers 20M/yr at least next time he wants a new deal.

To be honest, i wouldnt be surprised if rudi was allowed to walk, only to come crawling back to us after only getting offers of 1M/yr and less.

[glnwf]

Perry or no, the Bengals can live with or without Rudi Johnson.  Backs are more replaceable than some other positions.  Given that, it's what's up front that counts most in the running game.

:player: I agree bye, see ya!. Question tho why can't the Bengals seem to keep their runnigbacks happy recently?

Corey Dillon became a malcontent in Cincy? Now Rudi Johnson? Does anyone else see a pattern developing here? And not necessarily a good one. In the NFL you have always neede a good run game to off set the pass and open it up.

The Bengals do have Perry and hopefully the season to sit and observe the game speed versus college, did him some good as it did Carson. And the added time to add some muscle to be fit to absorb the rigors of an NFL season will also help his chances of reaching the full potential that most of us saw and see in him.

Because while at University of Michigan he showed speed, power, and the ability to catch the ball quite well coming out of the backfield. :player:

Plus the rookie draft might offer a few nice surprises in the later rounds? Let's see

Or as the picture to the left might suggest :player: Ickey might point us back to a great FB, let's not forget that they can also run,& catch as well as block

[HairOnFire]

To be honest, i wouldnt be surprised if rudi was allowed to walk, only to come crawling back to us after only getting offers of 1M/yr and less.

I'm guessing that your sole interest in making the remarks you have is to get people to respond to you. To put it bluntly, you seem like little more than a wheel in search of some much needed grease.

All things considered, Huddles seems like the best place for guys like you.

[HairOnFire]

Hell, if he's the man, where's the big bucks deal now? Chrish's reported $30 million, 6-year deal doesn't even qualify as top 10 money.

Sheesh, call the Bengals rumored contract proposal to Rudi modest if you want but it's clearly large enough...and long enough...to identify the Bengals long term plans and desires for the starting RB position. And again, those plans don't involve Perry being named the starter unless the Bengals very healthy contract offer is refused.

Quite literally, Perry starting is the backup plan, and NOT what the coaches want. At best, it's a pretty good worst-case scenario BUT teams simply don't make contract offers like the one mentioned to RB's they intend to phase out the moment their 1st round pick can climb out of the whirlpool tub.