More reason to think Rudi will be gone

[Kirkendall]

We don't know. Perry had two carries before being kept on the shelf, which for some of you need to realize they probably used the same theory of injury on Perry as they used on Palmer. Just bench him to prevent further injury and get him ready for the 2005 season. Personally, I'm watching Perry like I watched Palmer last season. Sit and learn, learn, learn, then use that, with his bullfrog mentality and he could have one of those campaigns next year everyone is talking about -- considering the entire focus is on Palmer.

The reasons for my apparently unpopular support aren't hard to guess. Among them, I'm not willing to risk Palmers continued development by risking a drop in running game production.

No one thought Rudi would have the season he had either. Using that same theory, who's to say they know remotely anything about Perry. What if Perry becomes the next Corey Dillon or James Brooks and becomes a staple in the Bengals offense for years to come. What if he becomes the next K. Carter and lives his career through an injury filled scope?

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is we don't know. Palmer is young, and a stud, he doesn't require the running game to show success. We rarely run play-action, and just by having Palmer, Chad, and PW, it forces opposing defenses to spread out a little more opening up the running game. So having Palmer and Chad, I believe, opens up the running game.

And yeah, I'm in favor of using whichever tag the Bengals feel makes the most sense...even if it only buys them one year of service.

I hate the tag in this situation because next season, we'll have the same discussion, same what if's, and further more, a decedent Rudi Johnson being tagged and shuttled around all the while, if he has another great season, raising the cost to sign him again.

Furthermore, I think Maurice Clarett could come in and barring injury put up better yds per rush, receptions and td's.

Whoaaa doggy, let's stop all that crazy talk.

[TubThumper]

"It's very uncharacteristic of Marvin to play/rely on unproven players"????? Did ya miss the entire offseason last year???? Ya know the whole Carson/Kitna situation???Rember??? Marvin has shown time and time again that he will let players walk, and keep moving forward without them. Plus he isn't scared to get rid of big name players. Takeo Spikes, Leon Dillon, Lamont Thompson... He's shown that he's not going to pay a player more than what he estimates there market value to be. I think in all honesty Rudi (if allowed to enter free agency) is going to get a quick correction on his asking price. I don't think any team is going to pay him like an elite back, and it's not really a good year to be a RB in free agency. There are a fair share of RB's on trade block, free agents, and in the draft. Plus he didn't show to be much of a game breaker last year, he didn't show a propensity for catching the ball, and his 3rd and short conversion rate wasn't all that great. So if you're not breaking long runs too often, failing to convert 3rd and short too much and not much of a factor in the passing game, guess what.....you're not an elite RB. I bet what the Bengals are offering Rudi right now is probably right around market value of about 4 yrs 16-17 mil with about 8 to sign.  Furthermore, I think Maurice Clarett could come in and barring injury put up better yds per rush, receptions and td's. Assuming he's still the same RB I saw two years ago playing for Ohio State. He's a better pure RB than Johnson imo. He may be a pain in the azz, but I think Clarett thinks too much of himself not be a star in the NFL. He's not really much of a self starter it seems (considering how he showed up for last years combine), but given the right direction, enviroment and motivation he can be a great RB. He'll probably still be a jack-azz though, but more of an arrogant T.O. type jack-azz.

WHAT HE SAID----except Perry, clarett would be a great value pick in the 4th-5th round to groom, I know Marvin could guide that man to be great.

With all the kvetching and whining that goes on around here about another guy who shall remain nameless, it amazes me that people are still stuck on the idea of Clarett coming here. The despised nameless guy is less of a head-case than Clarett. Get real.

[shworge]

Need a reason to not want Rudi back, try 4.0

That's his ypc average, good enough for tied for 25th in the NFL among players with 100 carries according to ESPN. Not to mention 4 fumbles, which ties him for 16th in the league, of all players including QBs. Take them out, and you have only 11 more who have fumbled more. He is second in the league in attempts/ carries, hence his "great" total and yards per game numbers.

Is he a top back, no.

He is an average back who got the ball a ton of times.

Is he worth top five money, hell no. But he does have a great work ethic and team attitude, and doesn't get injured, at least not yet.

Offer him top ten money, if he turns it down, then laugh as you walk away shaking your head.

It's amazing how much sense this makes.... I couldn't have said it better myself.

[joseph]

You ask any Ohio State Buckeye fan, just from a pure ability standpoint to tell you what they think of Maurice Clarett as a RB. Ask them what they thought of him, after his first game at Ohio State where he put up like 200 yds and few td's. I'm sure everyone of them after that game was saying "that guy is a freakin stud". If you could for just one second strip away all the dumb-azz things the kid has said and done, and judge him soley on what he did on the football field and the skills he displayed as a FRESHMAN rb at Ohio State, he's probably one of the top 5 backs in this draft; And if he could have done his school work, kept his mouth shut and played these past two seasons he probably would have been the top rb in this draft. That's the question with Maurice though. It's not whether he has the skills to succeed. It's a question of whether he can keep his mouth shut and do the work necessary to fullfill that potential. If you take that question away though, there isn't any team in the NFL that wouldn't be drooling over his natural abilities as a RB.

[HairOnFire]

You assume that the running game will drop off with Perry and Co. taking over.

I assume it will be more effective with Perry in there.. Rudi is a plowhorse that runs north and south and thats it.. How many plays can you conjure up for a one way back..

But if you want your field plowed which type of horse are you going to use? Plowhorse or colt?

As for assumptions, I think the Perry argument begins with one that can't be proven...that he's durable enough to carry the same load that Rudi did. So argue all you want about Rudi's asking price being too high, or that he's too one dimensional, but the simple fact remains that I value very highly the one dimension Rudi provides.

[HairOnFire]

Is he worth top five money, hell no. But he does have a great work ethic and team attitude, and doesn't get injured, at least not yet.

Offer him top ten money, if he turns it down, then laugh as you walk away shaking your head.

I've got very little problem with this. The question that remains is if the Bengals are actually offering top 10 money.

[walshfan]

You ask any Ohio State Buckeye fan, just from a pure ability standpoint to tell you what they think of Maurice Clarett as a RB. Ask them what they thought of him, after his first game at Ohio State where he put up like 200 yds and few td's. I'm sure everyone of them after that game was saying "that guy is a freakin stud". If you could for just one second strip away all the dumb-azz things the kid has said and done, and judge him soley on what he did on the football field and the skills he displayed as a FRESHMAN rb at Ohio State, he's probably one of the top 5 backs in this draft; And if he could have done his school work, kept his mouth shut and played these past two seasons he probably would have been the top rb in this draft. That's the question with Maurice though. It's not whether he has the skills to succeed. It's a question of whether he can keep his mouth shut and do the work necessary to fullfill that potential. If you take that question away though, there isn't any team in the NFL that wouldn't be drooling over his natural abilities as a RB.

Ohio State has allways favored the run...Many running backs have gained numerous yardage as the feature back at OSU... Clarett was a good back that ran in backof a very good O-Line.. He doesnt have very good speed and he was banged up pretty good towards the end of the season..that said I think he could be a decent back in the NFL.. His mental capacity for listening to negative advice worries me.. the latest on him is that his trainer is the same guy that trained David Boston.. Boston was suspended for being on the juice..Are we going to see this big buffed juiced up Clarett at the combine or whereever he happens to decide to show his face again.. He's an enigma and its a disturbing trend with him.

I hate the thought of having to cheer for the guy if he's a Bengal. Hopefully some other team (Raiders?) will take the chance on him...

[HairOnFire]

Marvin has shown time and time again that he will let players walk, and keep moving forward without them. Plus he isn't scared to get rid of big name players. Takeo Spikes, Leon Dillon, Lamont Thompson... He's shown that he's not going to pay a player more than what he estimates there market value to be.

Poor examples. Frankly, this team has replaced Takeo Spikes in name only. In adition, the Bengals agreed to trade Dillon only after another team agreed to give them what they were asking in trade value. Letting Rudi walk under most scenarios means getting nothing in return. Last, Lamont Thompson was let go because he was never going to fit the desired profile of a 190 lb. CB/FS tweener. No kidding, I think his days as a Bengal were doomed before Marvin's plane from Washington landed in River City.

As for Maurice Clarrett?

[HairOnFire]

I think the Bengals will pursue several defensive FAs; they did so two years ago, they did so last year, and the vast majority of their notable signings have been on the defensive side of the ball (see Hardy, Thornton, James, Beckett, Clemons, Herring, Webster, and the O'Neal trade). Now, whether the guys they target will end up on that list or go the way of Taylor/Vincent/Sapp/Gardener remains to be seen. But the chances of that happening will only be hurt by another big offensive contract.

Your list of Marvin's free agent signings only confirms my belief that attempts to improve this team defensively in the free agent market will be limited to an offseason of adding one or two 2nd and 3rd tier players. And that's simply not enough promise of defensive improvement for me to be in support of letting go of the proven production Rudi brings.

Durability has value. Power running skills have value. Being a team player has value. Plow horses cost money. You guys can argue all you want that Rudi isn't an elite back because that's not an argument anyone but his agent has bothered making. No, what I'm saying is that Rudi is good enough, and young enough, to cash in. Granted, that argument has its limits, but let's not forget that keeping Rudi Johnson doesn't prevent this team from taking advantage of the skills Chris Perry is supposed to bring to the table when healthy.

That said, here's the rub. Unless this team can really sign a FA with the status of a John Abraham or Corey Simon...something I don't see happening under any circumstance...all retaining Rudi will likely cost this team is one of those 2nd or 3rd tier free agents previously mentioned. That is, unless you really think this team is going to sign a Corey Simon or John Abraham.

So, who amongst us really believes that?

[HairOnFire]

Rudi's exit lines were written last April when the Bengals drafted Chris Perry. The only reason there's any talk of him staying now is Perry's injury, and despite even that I do not see them handing out yet another big-money deal on the offensive side of the ball.

No big-money deals on the offensive side of the ball? C'mon now, on multiple occasions many members of this board have advocated the drafting of 1st round TE's and WR's, right?

I mention that only because I've just been informed that those moves are expensive.

Let's face it, the relative cost of any unproven mid-to-late 1st round pick IS cheap when compared to that of a young-but-proven veteran player who is in a position to set the current market price in free agency. So the real question involves how much risk a team is willing to assume by rolling the dice on the unproven player.

And Perry has proven nothing, right? So how can so many of you see losing Rudi as a risk-free option?

[HairOnFire]

I hate the tag in this situation because next season, we'll have the same discussion, same what if's, and further more, a decedent Rudi Johnson being tagged and shuttled around all the while, if he has another great season, raising the cost to sign him again.

I love the tag for this situation. It's insurance. It buys time. Assuming Rudi's threat to sit out is the bluff I think it is then using a tag would give the team a real opportunity to evaluate if Perry deserves the starting job instead of simply having it handed it to him by a coaching staff crossing their fingers while hoping for the best.

And last, forgive me for thinking that if Rudi has another great season he'll have earned the high single season contract cost of the tag...as well as putting to rest any doubt about his value long term.

BTW, doesn't the very name...transition tag...accurately describe this situation?

[BengalszoneBilly]

And Perry has proven nothing, right? So how can so many of you see losing Rudi as a risk-free option?

Absolutely! Perry obviously has potential, otherwise he wouldn't have been drafted #1, but the truth is he has yet to prove anything as a player in the NFL whereas Rudi has done just that.

The thought of Carson alone in the backfield without a real threat at running back there with him just doesn't appeal that much to me.

[Kirkendall]

If you could for just one second strip away all the dumb-azz things the kid has said and done, and judge him soley on what he did on the football field and the skills he displayed as a FRESHMAN rb at Ohio State, he's probably one of the top 5 backs in this draft;

Yea man, his freshman year, I was fired up to have Clarett. He was the best thing to happen to OSU buckeyes for the 2002 season and honestly, I don't think we could have won the national title without him.

His athletic ability in 2002 was special. Heck, he was considered a Heisman candidate until he got hurt. But that was three years ago.

Then you have injuries. Then you have disloyalty -- or lying. Then you have skipping NFL sanctioned skill workout sessions because of (A -- last year) out of shape and over weight or (B -- this year) risk injury. Then you have no evidence of an organized football game since the Bucks national championship game about 3 years ago.

Hell, why not draft Frank from down the street during his daily 8:45am ritual of espresso coffee and a newspaper right before his 9am crap.

I'm sure some slack-jawed moronic idiot defining owner will pick up Clarett early in the draft, and if that's the case, then I hope the prick breaks his f'ing leg and loses his career. I typically don't wish doom on someone's career, but Clarett has done ZERO to justify any reason to give him the benefit of the doubt with pleasant fruit rollup boxes of joy.

PS, I don't like Clarett as a person, an athlete, and view him NOW as a silver spoon wanting, jealous of Labron James MF'er.

[Kirkendall]

I love the tag for this situation. It's insurance. It buys time.

That's my point. It only raises Rudi's asking price more, if he has another good season in 2005, and then we're paying more than we should have when we originally sign him, well if we do, before the 2005 season.

It does absolutely no good pushing this off. Either sign him to a long term deal, or don't sign him at all. All it does is push back the inevitable decision -- sign him or not -- and we're back to square one. Plus, if we tag him, the cap goes against us more than if we were to sign him even to a 3-year deal so you run the risk of losing a potential free agent because the cap room gets ever so smaller.

And last, forgive me for thinking that if Rudi has another great season he'll have earned the high single season contract cost of the tag...as well as putting to rest any doubt about his value long term.

You're forgiven. But let me ask you this. With the Reds giving HUGE contracts -- kind of rewarding contracts -- to both Barry Larkin and Ken Griffey Jr. in 2000, what exactly did that accomplish? Three losing seasons and no money for other FAs?

You can't be in the business of rewarding people for their work; you pay them to do their freakin job. You just have to hope that your star players don't jack up the price restricting the success of the team -- and the obvious goal -- of winning super bowls.

[TubThumper]

You assume that the running game will drop off with Perry and Co. taking over.

I assume it will be more effective with Perry in there.. Rudi is a plowhorse that runs north and south and thats it.. How many plays can you conjure up for a one way back..

But if you want your field plowed which type of horse are you going to use? Plowhorse or colt?

As for assumptions, I think the Perry argument begins with one that can't be proven...that he's durable enough to carry the same load that Rudi did. So argue all you want about Rudi's asking price being too high, or that he's too one dimensional, but the simple fact remains that I value very highly the one dimension Rudi provides.

Durability is a big thing with running backs, and even though Rudi is a pretty pedestrian back, his durability so far has enabled the Bengals to keep giving him the ball to the tune of a club yardage record at 4 yards a carry. That has a functional value, but there are limits to what it's worth.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Ya know the whole Carson/Kitna situation???Rember???

I'll just address this - Marvin let Carson settle in to the position by learning for a year on the sidelines and TAKING PART in practice, that was the plan all along.

Perry was injured, criticized for his work habits, and held out of training camp as a low first round pick.

I don't know what I said that was wrong or incorrect - Marvin makes his guys earn their spots unless it's due to injury or if they are FA veterans.

Perry couldn't even beat out Watson when he was able to play. Watson couldn't beat out Rudi - you do the math.

I cannot see him blindly relying on a completely unproven back with injury problems to match or exceed the production of a RB who just set the franchise single season rushing record.

This conversation is getting ridiculous. Just watch and see what happens.

[bengalboomer7]

I agree with you to a point Shula. While your point is completely correct, I also think that marvin will not pay him a top 5 salary and will be somewhat reluctant to give him a top ten salary. There was an interview earlier this year and he was asked about Shaun Alexander and said something along the lines of he would be too much and would throw the cap out of balance. He will also not do this for Rudi. I wouldn't be supriesd if we let him go to FA and still sign him once he sees his other offers. Of couse, there could be some desparate owner that will give him 6 mill a year. If we do tag him, I think it will be the transition tag and not the franchise. Marvin WILL NOT give him top 5 money!!!

[Kirkendall]

Marvin WILL NOT give him top 5 money!!!

Nor should he.

If we were still in the Age of Helplessism -- period between 1991-2002 for you newbs -- then heck, let's pay him tons of $$$ because we won't field a competitive team anyway. Now it's different. I don't think we need a great (nor proven) RB, just someone to fall forward giving us positive gains with each hand off (3 YPC is even adaquate). I'd rather be solid at all positions than great at a few but bad at the rest -- uhhh hummm rush defense.

The question really remains to seen on how much Rudi is demanding, which is still a mystery figure -- at least to me, I haven't heard Rudi nor his agent put actual figures out. But until we can compare numbers and debate that way, I don't see this debate going much further.

[HairOnFire]

It does absolutely no good pushing this off. Either sign him to a long term deal, or don't sign him at all. All it does is push back the inevitable decision -- sign him or not -- and we're back to square one. Plus, if we tag him, the cap goes against us more than if we were to sign him even to a 3-year deal so you run the risk of losing a potential free agent because the cap room gets ever so smaller.

I'm strongly in favor of signing Rudi to a long term deal. Unlike others, I've got no issues with him as a player. None at all. In fact, I think that the "plow horse" rant we just walked through is misleading to the point of stupidity. How many times does a RB have to rush for over 200 yards in agame before people realize you're talking about a little more than a plodding North/South grinder? That said, if the Bengals can't reach a long term deal this offseason I'm not in favor of shouting..."This is too hard!"....as we toss in our cards and turn our backs. Pun intended.

Maybe I don't feel this way if Perry had managed to show something last season. But that didn't happen, a sad fact that is conveniently being forgotten by those who offer stat based arguments about why Rudi isn't worth keeping if the asking price is a tick above modest. Simply put, until Perry produces a single stat that implies he can do the starting job...I'd do everything possible to make sure that job wasn't handed to him. That includes buying myself some time and another bargaining opportunity by tagging Rudi should the need arise.

But it shouldn't come to that. Signing Rudi long term SHOULD be a priority that takes precedence over any attempt to resign TJ before chasing free agents that probably won't agree to play for the Bengals.

[HairOnFire]

I cannot see him blindly relying on a completely unproven back with injury problems to match or exceed the production of a RB who just set the franchise single season rushing record.

There it is.

The overall lack of respect being shown to a player that just set the franchise rushing record while playing behind a 1st year starter at QB is pretty amazing. Just take a couple of stats, an unproven replacement option, mix with a healthy pinch of blind optimism and we're golden, right? Who can argue with coupon shopping?

People, we're not Browns fans. We're smarter than that. Let's not kid ourselves on this one, letting Rudi walk away may or may not work out, but we're talking about assuming a huge risk due to salary cap concerns....not because Rudi is an unsuitable RB. Dissing Rudi for what he isn't simply ignores what he is. That being, the same guy that produced performances that made Corey Dillon expendable. By comparison, Chris Perry has produced nothing but thousands of posts filled with speculation.

Hey, just for giggles....anybody want to bet a bottle of booze that Perry doesn't break Rudi's rushing record next season? Or in the season after that? Or even the one after that?

[TubThumper]

The game isn't about setting franchise rushing records, it's about winning. The hated one set franchise rushing records and the Bengals lost the whole time. The Bengals don't need a guy to set franchise rushing records, they need to have enough good players at enough positions to win.

Rudi Johnson is certainly worth keeping at a substantial raise in pay, and he may be worth more than is reasonable for the Bengals to pay. If so, let him seek greener pastures - the Bengals should not break the bank to keep him. There are other options, and although Perry may factor in as one of the options, there's no need to dwell on him as the only one.

[bengalboomer7]

To me it should be easy, but a little bit dangerous. Right now, I say transition him and let it sit into free agency and see where the other teams bite and if he gets any offers, and until those offers start to get a little high(will say over 5 mill a year) you keep matching the offers. If someone else out there offers Rudi top 5 money, let him go. This gives the bengals at least a little leverage because I don't think Rudi will get top five money from anyone. Once he realizes he can't get it anywhere else, he take the 3-4 mill we offer him in an incentive filled contract. Honestly, with all the other backs in either free agency, trades, or the draft, who is gonna offer a guy big money that's only been a full time starter for one year. This may be the one guy the bengals should drag their feet on and check his value on the market because it probably won't be real high. It's a little risky, but it will allow the bengals to stay within their "spending limits" on him. The other way it makes it risky is you won't really know how mush money they will have for free agency while waiting on Rudi. So hopefully, if Rudi drags his feet they'll keep going after their "target" free agents and that may also entice Rudi to sign. Either way, I wouldn't be suprised and will definitely expect the Bengals to play hard ball in this situation

[HairOnFire]

The game isn't about setting franchise rushing records, it's about winning. The hated one set franchise rushing records and the Bengals lost the whole time. The Bengals don't need a guy to set franchise rushing records, they need to have enough good players at enough positions to win.

That's sort of silly. No, the goal isn't to set franchise rushing records. The goal is winning games. Duhhh.

Look, last season Rudi set that record as a result of being the player who gave the Bengals the best opportunity to win games. His steady presence and production protected a first year starter at quarterback AND a miserable run defense that couldn't get off the field. Simply put, Rudi got the ball as often as he did because he was the best option to win. The record fell because of the individual yards produced in the teams attempt to win games.

I fail to see how our miserable run defense will be much improved by losing the one offensive asset that best protects it. That being, a durable power runner capable of gaining 1,500 yards rushing in a single season. And if that player isn't Rudi...it has to be Perry. And Perry hasn't proven he's up to the task, right? So we go free agent shopping with our fingers crossed, right? The idea that there's no risk involved is laughable.

Again, the best argument for allowing Rudi to leave begins and ends with saving a couple bags of money at the RB position and using it in free agency...presumably at defensive positions of true weakness. So who amongst us thinks the Bengals are going to be able to make that haul? Who thinks they can seal that deal?

If you can't raise your hand when that question is asked then the most likely solution to the Bengals defensive woes comes by committing fully to adding defensive help in the coming draft....a strategy that isn't negatively impacted by giving Rudi Johnson a substantial pay raise. In fact, I'd argue that retaining Rudi actually frees up the Bengals ability to concentrate almost entirely on defense.

And that's the goal, right?

[BengalszoneBilly]

In fact, I'd argue that retaining Rudi actually frees up the Bengals ability to concentrate almost entirely on defense.

And that's the goal, right?

Well that would be my goal anyway! :player:

[FonzieDog]

I hope we don't put the franchise tag on Rudi. I don't think he's earned the pay of a top 5 back. I could agree with top 10 pay. I think his numbers reflect that. He's earned that much. If he doesn't go for top 10 pay, then we need to decide if it's more important to overpay for a top 10 back or use the money to shore up our run defense and take our chances with Perry. I love Rudi but if I had to decide I would put the money into the defense.