More reason to think Rudi will be gone

[CTBengalsFan]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=insi...v=tsn&type=lgns

Don't be surprised if the Bengals allow RB Rudi Johnson to take a free-agent hike. The Bengals have decided they will not pay Johnson at the level of the top backs in the NFL, and they are not likely to put the franchise tag on him. How could they be so comfortable allowing a solid starter to walk? Bengals coach Marvin Lewis would be confident going into next season with Chris Perry as his starter. Perry, the Bengals' first-round pick in 2004, didn't make much of an impact as a rookie mostly because of a sports hernia. But Lewis believes Perry will be a special player who could be the team's 2005 equivalent of QB Carson Palmer this season.

[turningpoint]

Fine by me, i have all the confidence Perry can get it done also, He's a faster stronger Westbrook.

[TubThumper]

Perry or no, the Bengals can live with or without Rudi Johnson. Backs are more replaceable than some other positions. Given that, it's what's up front that counts most in the running game.

[BengalPappaw]

Amen

The Bengals need to make sure they get a good center with their money then to they do getting Rudi signed for BIG BUCKS!

[AbeVigoda]

Heard on the radio last night that it would cost the Colts over 6 million to franchise Edgerin James. If that's the going rate for Rudi that's about 3 million too much. I like Rudi, but he's too north and south. I really feel like a combination of Perry/Watson/Wilson would be effective. Oh well, what the hell do I know?

[BengalszoneBilly]

I really feel like a combination of Perry/Watson/Wilson would be effective. Oh well, what the hell do I know?

It could very well be, for all I know too! I've just never been a fan of "running back by committee" though.

By the way Abe...you look HOT in your avatar!

[San Antonio Bengal]

I've never liked running back by committee, but if that's how it's going to be, so be it. Rudi isn't worth the price tag now. Maybe he'll be a great back in a few years, but he isn't there yet. Perry has a lot of potential, but he's essentially still a rookie given all the missed playing time. It's just nice to know that our main concerns this offseason are running backs and centers and such rather than head coaches and quarterbacks!!

[BengalszoneBilly]

It's just nice to know that our main concerns this offseason are running backs and centers and such rather than head coaches and quarterbacks!!

I wouldn't say "main" concern. Running backs and centers are in the top 5...sure, but until the 26th rated against the run defensive line is finally fixed, I see nothing looming larger than that single problem that keeps killing the team.

IMHO, until we can effectively stop the other teams running backs, ours simply won't get the ball anyway regardless of what his name may be! We'll just be playing "catch up" from behind all season long, (again) which only pressures Bratkowski to do what he's already to eager to do in the first freakin' place! Air out the ball no matter what.

I'm tired of that crap. Until the Bengals defense OWNS the line of scrimmage, I just ain't gonna be happy. Yeah, that means the offense too, but I feel they are presently better off personnel-wise than their defensive counterparts

Why can't Cincinnati linemen be the ones pushing the other guys around for the entire game for once, eh?

[Kirkendall]

ANOTHER Rudi thread? Damn.

[bengalboomer7]

Look on the bright side Kirk, it's not a Dillon thread!

[ShulaSteakhouse]

I'm REALLY worried about this and the fact we'd be relying on a completely unproven rookie who held out of most of training camp, and then missed basically the entire season, and most of the preseason with injury and rumors that he wasn't preparing properly and was being held out of games he could play in, in favor of Watson.

This is very uncharacteristic of Marvin, to play/rely on a guy who hasn't earned his stripes so to speak. Most of his rookies "earn" playing time on special teams and in practice. He is not one to just promote and stick a guy in there and rely on draft picks every year like the previous coaches had to do constantly - unless an injury occured.

Furthermore, I doubt this article has much validity to it - we all know Marvin runs a tight lipped ship at PBS and if anything like this is leaked - it's to increase their leverage with Rudi's agent. This guy quotes no sources at all or references anything at all to base his assumptions on.

The most effective thing to do for this offense would be to keep Rudi as a starter and use Perry accordingly every game as needed and let him get better that way.

Anyone who doesn't think every team needs two very capable RB's is fooling themselves.

If you are prepared to rely on Watson/Perry next year with no real depth beyond that - you are asking for another .500 or worse season - guarantee it. Someone will get hurt.

Then again there's always, um, Maurice Clarrett in the 4th or 5th round.

[CTBengalsFan]

ANOTHER Rudi thread? Damn.

i was going to post it in another Rudi thread, but there were none on the first page.

[HoosierCat]

Anyone who doesn't think every team needs two very capable RB's is fooling themselves.

Teams run because they win, not win because they run. There are any number of articles around that examine the question (one is here http://www.twominutewarning.com/correlations2.htm and you can find more articles debunking the sacred importance of the RB at footballoutsiders). Heck, any Bengals fan who's paid any attention to this team at all over the past 8 or so years can expound at length over just how far you get when you have a "franchise" back but no passing game...

I am sublimely unconcerned about Rudi. If we can resign him at a reasonable price, fine. If not, I'm sure we can find some other modestly talented fourth-round pick to turn into a 1,400-year/year rusher--assuming, of course, that our current lineup doesn't do just fine. Take the money and throw it at the D, that's what's killing us.

[BengalNation1281]

Unless we can put Rudi in at DT or LB from time to time, forget about it. Watson/Wilson/Perry() would be fine in the backfield...it's not like we're going to need them too much anyway. Nobody will be worried about our running game...that's what we've got the pass for :player:

BN1281

[HairOnFire]

I am sublimely unconcerned about Rudi. If we can resign him at a reasonable price, fine. If not, I'm sure we can find some other modestly talented fourth-round pick to turn into a 1,400-year/year rusher--assuming, of course, that our current lineup doesn't do just fine. Take the money and throw it at the D, that's what's killing us.

To steal a line from our old Freakish pal, you may be whistling past the graveyard.

I've read ALMOST nothing that leads me to believe that the Bengals don't consider resigning Rudi to be incredibly important. In fact, the recent article about resigning TJ begins by stating flatly that resigning Rudi remains job one for the Bengals this offseason. I happen to agree. In addition, the Bengals openly point to their willingness to use one of the available tags if a contract agreement can't be reached, both options representing very expensive gestures that should make abundantly clear how much value and importance they place upon having Rudi on this team next season. And yeah, I'm in favor of using whichever tag the Bengals feel makes the most sense...even if it only buys them one year of service.

The reasons for my apparently unpopular support aren't hard to guess. Among them, I'm not willing to risk Palmers continued development by risking a drop in running game production. But I'll also point to the other side of the ball. I look upon a power running game as a direct extension of the defense the Bengals are trying desperately to build, and I'm not in favor of going with an unknown at a position I consider important. Not when the best argument for doing so begins and ends with trying to man the position on the cheap.

I want Rudi.

Last, the idea that the Bengals wil suddenly throw a bunch of money at the defense if Rudi is let go makes sense only if you also think that the Bengals will be able to cash in on defensive players in the expensive free agent market....something I don't see happening despite everyones desires. And because that's true the only remaining way to improve the defensive talent level quickly is to commit to using high draft assets on defensive players....moves that would hardly be impacted by the size of Rudi's contract.

[walshfan]

I am sublimely unconcerned about Rudi. If we can resign him at a reasonable price, fine. If not, I'm sure we can find some other modestly talented fourth-round pick to turn into a 1,400-year/year rusher--assuming, of course, that our current lineup doesn't do just fine. Take the money and throw it at the D, that's what's killing us.

To steal a line from our old Freakish pal, you may be whistling past the graveyard.

I've read ALMOST nothing that leads me to believe that the Bengals don't consider resigning Rudi to be incredibly important. In fact, the recent article about resigning TJ begins by stating flatly that resigning Rudi remains job one for the Bengals this offseason. I happen to agree. In addition, the Bengals openly point to their willingness to use one of the available tags if a contract agreement can't be reached, both options representing very expensive gestures that should make abundantly clear how much value and importance they place upon having Rudi on this team next season. And yeah, I'm in favor of using whichever tag the Bengals feel makes the most sense...even if it only buys them one year of service.

The reasons for my apparently unpopular support aren't hard to guess. Among them, I'm not willing to risk Palmers continued development by risking a drop in running game production. But I'll also point to the other side of the ball. I look upon a power running game as a direct extension of the defense the Bengals are trying desperately to build, and I'm not in favor of going with an unknown at a position I consider important. Not when the best argument for doing so begins and ends with trying to man the position on the cheap.

I want Rudi.

Last, the idea that the Bengals wil suddenly throw a bunch of money at the defense if Rudi is let go makes sense only if you also think that the Bengals will be able to cash in on defensive players in the expensive free agent market....something I don't see happening despite everyones desires. And because that's true the only remaining way to improve the defensive talent level quickly is to commit to using high draft assets on defensive players....moves that would hardly be impacted by the size of Rudi's contract.

You assume that the running game will drop off with Perry and Co. taking over.

I assume it will be more effective with Perry in there.. Rudi is a plowhorse that runs north and south and thats it.. How many plays can you conjure up for a one way back.. He cant catch the ball and has no moves other than run it up the gut..And by the way the Bengals were 21st in power efficiency running on third down with less than 3 yards for a first so he isnt even getting that done.. You look at the 1400 yards like he had this great season.. I look at 4.0 a carry and realize that he's nothing more than an average back that got to carry the ball allot.

Marvin wants an all around feature back.. Catch it ..swing to the outside if there's nothing up the gut ..juke and jive to make tacklers miss.. Rudi cant do these things and they arent going to pay him more than an average back in the league is getting... It adios dont let the door hit you in the arse on the way out and by the way Rudi ..dont threaten Marvin with cheap talk.. He can find another like you very easy...you replaced Dillon and Perry will replace you ....

[OICanDoThat]

Need a reason to not want Rudi back, try 4.0

That's his ypc average, good enough for tied for 25th in the NFL among players with 100 carries according to ESPN. Not to mention 4 fumbles, which ties him for 16th in the league, of all players including QBs. Take them out, and you have only 11 more who have fumbled more. He is second in the league in attempts/ carries, hence his "great" total and yards per game numbers.

Is he a top back, no.

He is an average back who got the ball a ton of times.

Is he worth top five money, hell no. But he does have a great work ethic and team attitude, and doesn't get injured, at least not yet.

Offer him top ten money, if he turns it down, then laugh as you walk away shaking your head.

[San Antonio Bengal]

It's just nice to know that our main concerns this offseason are running backs and centers and such rather than head coaches and quarterbacks!!

I wouldn't say "main" concern. Running backs and centers are in the top 5...sure, but until the 26th rated against the run defensive line is finally fixed, I see nothing looming larger than that single problem that keeps killing the team.

You know what I meant. All I meant was that we don't have QB coaching worries, unlike the past decade or so. So what if I used the word "main" in there.

[joseph]

"It's very uncharacteristic of Marvin to play/rely on unproven players"????? Did ya miss the entire offseason last year???? Ya know the whole Carson/Kitna situation???Rember??? Marvin has shown time and time again that he will let players walk, and keep moving forward without them. Plus he isn't scared to get rid of big name players. Takeo Spikes, Leon Dillon, Lamont Thompson... He's shown that he's not going to pay a player more than what he estimates there market value to be. I think in all honesty Rudi (if allowed to enter free agency) is going to get a quick correction on his asking price. I don't think any team is going to pay him like an elite back, and it's not really a good year to be a RB in free agency. There are a fair share of RB's on trade block, free agents, and in the draft. Plus he didn't show to be much of a game breaker last year, he didn't show a propensity for catching the ball, and his 3rd and short conversion rate wasn't all that great. So if you're not breaking long runs too often, failing to convert 3rd and short too much and not much of a factor in the passing game, guess what.....you're not an elite RB. I bet what the Bengals are offering Rudi right now is probably right around market value of about 4 yrs 16-17 mil with about 8 to sign. Furthermore, I think Maurice Clarett could come in and barring injury put up better yds per rush, receptions and td's. Assuming he's still the same RB I saw two years ago playing for Ohio State. He's a better pure RB than Johnson imo. He may be a pain in the azz, but I think Clarett thinks too much of himself not be a star in the NFL. He's not really much of a self starter it seems (considering how he showed up for last years combine), but given the right direction, enviroment and motivation he can be a great RB. He'll probably still be a jack-azz though, but more of an arrogant T.O. type jack-azz.

[turningpoint]

I've read ALMOST nothing that leads me to believe that the Bengals don't consider resigning Rudi to be incredibly important. In fact, the recent article about resigning TJ begins by stating flatly that resigning Rudi remains job one for the Bengals this offseason. I happen to agree. In addition, the Bengals openly point to their willingness to use one of the available tags if a contract agreement can't be reached, both options representing very expensive gestures that should make abundantly clear how much value and importance they place upon having Rudi on this team next season. And yeah, I'm in favor of using whichever tag the Bengals feel makes the most sense...even if it only buys them one year of service.

The reasons for my apparently unpopular support aren't hard to guess. Among them, I'm not willing to risk Palmers continued development by risking a drop in running game production. But I'll also point to the other side of the ball. I look upon a power running game as a direct extension of the defense the Bengals are trying desperately to build, and I'm not in favor of going with an unknown at a position I consider important. Not when the best argument for doing so begins and ends with trying to man the position on the cheap.

on the cheap? WTF PERRY WAS A 1st round pick....2nd best rb in the draft...

[turningpoint]

"It's very uncharacteristic of Marvin to play/rely on unproven players"????? Did ya miss the entire offseason last year???? Ya know the whole Carson/Kitna situation???Rember??? Marvin has shown time and time again that he will let players walk, and keep moving forward without them. Plus he isn't scared to get rid of big name players. Takeo Spikes, Leon Dillon, Lamont Thompson... He's shown that he's not going to pay a player more than what he estimates there market value to be. I think in all honesty Rudi (if allowed to enter free agency) is going to get a quick correction on his asking price. I don't think any team is going to pay him like an elite back, and it's not really a good year to be a RB in free agency. There are a fair share of RB's on trade block, free agents, and in the draft. Plus he didn't show to be much of a game breaker last year, he didn't show a propensity for catching the ball, and his 3rd and short conversion rate wasn't all that great. So if you're not breaking long runs too often, failing to convert 3rd and short too much and not much of a factor in the passing game, guess what.....you're not an elite RB. I bet what the Bengals are offering Rudi right now is probably right around market value of about 4 yrs 16-17 mil with about 8 to sign. Furthermore, I think Maurice Clarett could come in and barring injury put up better yds per rush, receptions and td's. Assuming he's still the same RB I saw two years ago playing for Ohio State. He's a better pure RB than Johnson imo. He may be a pain in the azz, but I think Clarett thinks too much of himself not be a star in the NFL. He's not really much of a self starter it seems (considering how he showed up for last years combine), but given the right direction, enviroment and motivation he can be a great RB. He'll probably still be a jack-azz though, but more of an arrogant T.O. type jack-azz.

WHAT HE SAID----except Perry, clarett would be a great value pick in the 4th-5th round to groom, I know Marvin could guide that man to be great.

[HoosierCat]

Hair:

I've read ALMOST nothing that leads me to believe that the Bengals don't consider resigning Rudi to be incredibly important.

Rudi's exit lines were written last April when the Bengals drafted Chris Perry. The only reason there's any talk of him staying now is Perry's injury, and despite even that I do not see them handing out yet another big-money deal on the offensive side of the ball. Marvin has stated his reluctance to see that happen multiple times in the last few weeks.

The reasons for my apparently unpopular support aren't hard to guess. Among them, I'm not willing to risk Palmers continued development by risking a drop in running game production. But I'll also point to the other side of the ball. I look upon a power running game as a direct extension of the defense the Bengals are trying desperately to build, and I'm not in favor of going with an unknown at a position I consider important. Not when the best argument for doing so begins and ends with trying to man the position on the cheap.

Well, as someone already pointed out, counting on a 1st round pick hardly constitutes manning the position on the cheap. The fact Perry costs relatively little is a reward for the 8-8 2003 season. Palmer has already shown ample ability to make teams pay if they stack the line against the run, so I'm not worried about that. Between our o-line's solid job of run-blocking and the threat of Palmer throwing, there will be space for any back to run, no matter the name on his jersey.

Last, the idea that the Bengals wil suddenly throw a bunch of money at the defense if Rudi is let go makes sense only if you also think that the Bengals will be able to cash in on defensive players in the expensive free agent market....something I don't see happening despite everyones desires.

I think the Bengals will pursue several defensive FAs; they did so two years ago, they did so last year, and the vast majority of their notable signings have been on the defensive side of the ball (see Hardy, Thornton, James, Beckett, Clemons, Herring, Webster, and the O'Neal trade). Now, whether the guys they target will end up on that list or go the way of Taylor/Vincent/Sapp/Gardener remains to be seen. But the chances of that happening will only be hurt by another big offensive contract.

I'd be happy to have Rudi back, but if he's not, Perry will do fine.

[BengalNation1281]

I like Rudi, and I am glad that he was around to help the team develop into what it has, but I wouldn't be sad to see him go if he thinks he is worth Top 5-RB money, which he isn't, and continues to play that card after a decent deal is put on the table. He is definitely a good runner, but nobody fears Rudi like they fear LT or Edge or Alexander...he's just not one of the elite. Given, alot of RBs in the NFL aren't, but they also understand that they are not...Rudi needs to learn this and get a good grasp of it before he goes into the FA pool and becomes sorely disappointed.

I want to have Rudi back, but I also want a DT who can stop the freakin' run, and if Rudi going frees up cap room for one of those then I'm all for it. I think that the offense would be fine if they had to go with Watson or Wilson or Perry...Kenny is a good RB, and the passing game would be able to help cancel out any weaknesses that there might be if we don't have a top-flight RB. I'm just not worried about the offense...the offense wasn't the problem in 2003, the offense wasn't the problem in 2004, and the offense will certainly, CERTAINLY not be the problem in 2005.

So if Rudi wants big money, let him go. If he decides to be level-headed, then let him stay and reap the rewards that are coming.

BN1281

[Kirkendall]

ANOTHER Rudi thread?  Damn.   

i was going to post it in another Rudi thread, but there were none on the first page.

Don't worry about it. This was bound to be the most popular discussion in the off-season.

[TubThumper]

I like Rudi, and I am glad that he was around to help the team develop into what it has, but I wouldn't be sad to see him go if he thinks he is worth Top 5-RB money, which he isn't, and continues to play that card after a decent deal is put on the table. He is definitely a good runner, but nobody fears Rudi like they fear LT or Edge or Alexander...he's just not one of the elite. Given, alot of RBs in the NFL aren't, but they also understand that they are not...Rudi needs to learn this and get a good grasp of it before he goes into the FA pool and becomes sorely disappointed.

I want to have Rudi back, but I also want a DT who can stop the freakin' run, and if Rudi going frees up cap room for one of those then I'm all for it. I think that the offense would be fine if they had to go with Watson or Wilson or Perry...Kenny is a good RB, and the passing game would be able to help cancel out any weaknesses that there might be if we don't have a top-flight RB. I'm just not worried about the offense...the offense wasn't the problem in 2003, the offense wasn't the problem in 2004, and the offense will certainly, CERTAINLY not be the problem in 2005.

So if Rudi wants big money, let him go. If he decides to be level-headed, then let him stay and reap the rewards that are coming.

BN1281

If Rudi can get big money somewhere else and takes it, that IS being level headed. Nothing ventured nothing gained.