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Kickoff SpecialisT?


turningpoint

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Look at the stats before you speak...The colts have YET to have anyone with the opponents starting position as the Bengals. Couch kickers....sheesh.

Stats for the year on kickoffs....Rackers fans will like this..

These are the stats for kickers and kickoffs from nfl.com + one column I added showing the avg starting distance for opponents.

Any kicker with less than 10 kickoffs was not included.

You will note how many southern kickers are in the top group. Also note that several of those kickers had kicks returned for touchdowns.

And for those who refuse to believe me when I say leg strength has little to do with kickoff distance, check out Todd Sauerbruns kickoffs. Nobody can accuse that boy of having a weak leg.

And before I hear the argument about coverage units controlling the return avg, I agree to a point. But the hang time and placement also help. Otherwise, avg return would not be a stat kept for kickers.

Player Team G KO Avg TB OSK OSKR Ret RetAvg TDs Starting point

1.Neil Rackers ARI 16 70 67.5 23 0 0 46 22.1 1 24.6

2.Josh Scobee JAC 16 62 65.2 11 0 0 50 19.9 0 24.7

3.Jason Hanson DET 16 71 64.3 14 2 0 53 19.3 0 25

4.Matt Bryant MIA 3 12 63.7 0 0 0 12 18.9 0 25.2

5.Billy Cundiff DAL 16 67 61.7 3 1 1 62 17.5 0 25.8

6.Jay Feely ATL 16 73 63.8 13 3 2 55 20 1 26.2

7.Jeff Chandler WAS 3 14 62.2 0 0 0 14 20 0 27.8

8.David Akers PHI 16 86 64.9 12 0 0 73 23.2 0 28.3

9.Toby Gowin NYJ 16 76 63 7 0 0 69 21.7 1 28.7

10.Micah Knorr DEN 12 61 64.4 15 1 1 45 23.3 0 28.9

11.Olindo Mare MIA 11 44 64.6 11 0 0 32 23.5 1 28.9

12.Matt Stover BAL 16 23 62.7 2 0 0 21 21.8 0 29.1

13.Shayne Graham CIN 16 82 60.5 2 1 0 79 19.6 0 29.1

14.John Carney NO 16 42 62.4 0 2 0 40 21.6 0 29.2

15.Kris Brown HOU 16 69 63.8 9 1 0 58 23.2 1 29.4

16.Sebastian Janikowski OAK 16 76 64.1 12 1 0 62 23.5 0 29.4

17.Mitch Berger NO 16 37 65.4 1 0 0 34 24.9 0 29.5

18.Jeff Reed PIT 16 84 62.1 7 0 0 74 21.6 1 29.5

19.Martin Gramatica TB 11 46 62 6 1 0 38 21.6 0 29.6

20.Aaron Elling MIN 7 35 63.8 0 1 0 34 23.5 0 29.7

21.Rian Lindell BUF 16 83 58.3 3 3 1 77 18.3 0 30

22.Adam Vinatieri NE 16 94 63 6 0 0 86 23.3 1 30.3

23.Josh Brown SEA 16 82 61.4 5 1 0 76 21.8 0 30.4

24.Wade Richey BAL 12 53 63.1 7 0 0 43 24.1 2 31

25.Jason Baker IND 4 33 61 2 0 0 29 22.1 0 31.1

26.Nate Kaeding SD 16 89 61.1 2 0 0 82 22.3 2 31.2

27.Ryan Longwell GB 16 83 58.6 2 3 0 79 20.2 0 31.6

28.Steve Christie NYG 16 71 57.7 2 2 1 66 19.4 0 31.7

29.Martin Gramatica IND 4 21 60.4 1 0 0 19 22.2 0 31.8

30.Jeff Wilkins STL 16 70 63.6 3 0 0 66 25.5 1 31.9

31.Lawrence Tynes KC 16 94 60.5 7 2 1 85 22.4 0 31.9

32.Jason Baker DEN 4 24 63 1 0 0 22 25 1 32

33.John Kasay CAR 14 56 59.9 2 1 0 52 21.9 0 32

34.Phil Dawson CLE 16 69 60.5 5 4 1 59 22.6 1 32.1

35.John Hall WAS 8 30 60.8 1 0 0 29 23 1 32.2

36.Craig Hentrich TEN 16 73 57.6 3 4 3 65 19.8 0 32.2

37.Mike Vanderjagt IND 15 32 58.1 0 0 0 31 20.4 0 32.3

38.Jose Cortez MIN 8 38 63.9 4 0 0 33 27 1 33.1

39.Paul Edinger CHI 16 56 58.4 0 2 0 53 21.7 0 33.3

40.Todd Peterson SF 16 61 56.4 1 3 0 56 20 0 33.6

41.Todd Sauerbrun CAR 16 21 54.6 1 2 0 17 19.9 0 35.3

42.Jay Taylor TB 5 21 57 0 1 0 20 24.8 1 37.8

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I think the trend in the NFL has been for more directional kicking too. Trying to drop it in between the return guys and the last row of blockers. You don't see too many guys that just smash it into the endzone anymore. I'll take Shayne anyday. he can only get better.

PS: For all of Rackers tremendous leg strength, I don't remember him kicking too many to the goal line or into the endzone either.

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That's a pretty comprehensive breakdown of kicking stats. I'm unsure as why the TD's were listed though. I think they are seldom due to the kicker unless he misses the touchdown saving tackle! This item is more of an overall special teams stat IMO.

At any rate, I like how Shayne's stats compare. I feel he's one of the leagues better kickers, and an asset to the team. I guess we know who to confer with when we need kicking data, eh Sis? ^_^

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TD's matter because many times it is due to the low line drive kick (attempting a TB), that WAY outkicks the coverage.

And I agree 100% that ST play affects the return. But good placement to where the ST unit knows it's going (they run plays on kickoffs you know) has a lot to do with the success of the unit.

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wow shayne's sis. i must say we love whta your brother does for us also i also heard him say over a radio interview that he's goin to work harder to get them kickoffs deeper.

Graham said he's going to work on his kickoff's during the offseason. He needs to. I hope it works, because he's a good kicker and good team personality otherwise. If he can't substantially improve his distance and/or hang time, looking at a kick-off specialist is in order. Opponents are getting way too much of a field position advantage after Bengals' kickoffs. The coverage teams don't appear to be the problem they once were, and the kicks are consistently short, so I'd deal with the kickoffs.

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wow shayne's sis. i must say we love whta your brother does for us also i also heard him say over a radio interview that he's goin to work harder to get them kickoffs deeper.

Graham said he's going to work on his kickoff's during the offseason. He needs to. I hope it works, because he's a good kicker and good team personality otherwise. If he can't substantially improve his distance and/or hang time, looking at a kick-off specialist is in order. Opponents are getting way too much of a field position advantage after Bengals' kickoffs. The coverage teams don't appear to be the problem they once were, and the kicks are consistently short, so I'd deal with the kickoffs.

Did you bother to read the(my) first post...WAY too much of an advantage makes it sound like they are starting off way farther upfield than other teams. I have just shown that the Bengals opponents starting position is ranked 13th...

Hellooooo...is this thing on? :huh::blink:

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Did you bother to read the first post...WAY too much of an advantage makes it sound like they are starting off way farther upfield than other teams.  I have just shown that the Bengals opponents starting position is ranked 13th...

Hellooooo...is this thing on? :huh:  :blink:

Yeah. It's on. Sometimes people get certain crazy ideas into their heads and can't get rid of the ideas even with all sorts of evidence to the contrary. I'd much rather have Shayne than a lot of other kickers in the league.

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wow shayne's sis. i must say we love whta your brother does for us also i also heard him say over a radio interview that he's goin to work harder to get them kickoffs deeper.

Graham said he's going to work on his kickoff's during the offseason. He needs to. I hope it works, because he's a good kicker and good team personality otherwise. If he can't substantially improve his distance and/or hang time, looking at a kick-off specialist is in order. Opponents are getting way too much of a field position advantage after Bengals' kickoffs. The coverage teams don't appear to be the problem they once were, and the kicks are consistently short, so I'd deal with the kickoffs.

Did you bother to read the(my) first post...WAY too much of an advantage makes it sound like they are starting off way farther upfield than other teams. I have just shown that the Bengals opponents starting position is ranked 13th...

Hellooooo...is this thing on? :huh::blink:

Then 13th isn't good enough.

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Do we need a Kickoff Specialist ..? NO But improvement is needed for one very simple reason...

I. - Field position affects time of posession !

i.e. without the ball or being placed on a shorter field teams have a constant advantage at forcing us to play with our backs to our own endzone. Playbooks become simplified. Offenses become limited because they " just want to get space " so teams can blitz and gamble more to create a short field.

- make a long answer short...We need kickoffs to land between the 5 yd. line and the back of the endzone instead of the 15- 10 yd. line, or some of Shaynes' nastier kicks that get plenty of air under them but come down at the 20 yard line, that nonsense has to stop!

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I have just shown that the Bengals opponents starting position is ranked 13th...

Hellooooo...is this thing on? :huh::blink:

Shayne has done good. I still think his kickoff issues have more to do with his approach than anything else. Too many times, he just doesn't look...smooth...when he's coming up for kicks. (Of course, being up here on the East Coast I've only seen about half a dozen Bengals games so maybe I'm getting him on his bad days :huh: .) He is a touch shy on average yardage; go through and look at kickers who have kicked 60, 70, 80 times and he's 2, 3, 4 yards shorter. That's not leg strength, that's form, IMHO. He needs to play around a bit this offseason, try some different things, there's just something that's almost -- but not quite -- there.

One thing Shayne does deserve huge props for this year is his work with Kyle Larson. I can only imagine the reps that went into making him and a guy who had never held before (Larson) into a steady snap-grabbing-setting-down-spinning-the-laces-boot-it's-3 team. Yeah, Rackers had the big boomer leg, but I'll take Mr. Automatic on FGs any day!

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Do we need a Kickoff Specialist ..? NO But improvement is needed for one very simple reason...

I. - Field position affects time of posession !

i.e. without the ball or being placed on a shorter field teams have a constant advantage at forcing us to play with our backs to our own endzone. Playbooks become simplified. Offenses become limited because they " just want to get space " so teams can blitz and gamble more to create a short field.

- make a long answer short...We need kickoffs to land between the 5 yd. line and the back of the endzone instead of the 15- 10 yd. line, or some of Shaynes' nastier kicks that get plenty of air under them but come down at the 20 yard line, that nonsense has to stop!

Yeah, I'm sure those 5 yards, the difference between the Bengals opponents starting spot and the BEST teams' opponents starting spot makes ALL the difference. Give me a friggin break. Larson punted the ball to the one and we allowed a 99 yard touchdown. What a waste of a perfect kick. And if you'll check the tapes, our defense held on the worst field position plays, and relaxed and gave up the big yards on many of the best field position plays.

Yes, field position means a lot, but 5 yards does not affect the game as tremendously as you think. Otherwise more of those top 13 teams would have been in the playoffs. Our offense not going more than 15 yards on many of our possessions affects the game a hell of a lot more than a kickoff starting a team on the 30.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

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Do we need a Kickoff Specialist ..? NO  But improvement is needed for one very simple reason...

I. - Field position affects time of posession ! 

i.e. without the ball or being placed on a shorter field teams have a constant advantage at forcing us to play with our backs to our own endzone. Playbooks become simplified. Offenses become limited because they " just want to get space "  so teams can blitz and gamble more to create a short field.

- make a long answer short...We need kickoffs to land between the 5 yd. line and the back of the endzone instead of the 15- 10 yd. line, or some of Shaynes' nastier kicks that get plenty of air under them but come down at the 20 yard line, that nonsense has to stop!

Yeah, I'm sure those 5 yards, the difference between the Bengals opponents starting spot and the BEST teams' opponents starting spot makes ALL the difference. Give me a friggin break. Larson punted the ball to the one and we allowed a 99 yard touchdown. What a waste of a perfect kick. And if you'll check the tapes, our defense held on the worst field position plays, and relaxed and gave up the big yards on many of the best field position plays.

Yes, field position means a lot, but 5 yards does not affect the game as tremendously as you think. Otherwise more of those top 13 teams would have been in the playoffs. Our offense not going more than 15 yards on many of our possessions affects the game a hell of a lot more than a kickoff starting a team on the 30.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Five yards may mean more than you think. With all the situational kicking - squib and pooch kicks, directional kicking, etc. - a 5 yard differential in average may underlie a significant inability to drive the ball deep when you need it. It hurts when you've just recaptured the momentum with a score and now lead by 2 points with less than a minute to go to have the kickoff sail to the 11 yard line on a line and as a result be returned to the 40.

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Do we need a Kickoff Specialist ..? NO  But improvement is needed for one very simple reason...

I. - Field position affects time of posession ! 

i.e. without the ball or being placed on a shorter field teams have a constant advantage at forcing us to play with our backs to our own endzone. Playbooks become simplified. Offenses become limited because they " just want to get space "  so teams can blitz and gamble more to create a short field.

- make a long answer short...We need kickoffs to land between the 5 yd. line and the back of the endzone instead of the 15- 10 yd. line, or some of Shaynes' nastier kicks that get plenty of air under them but come down at the 20 yard line, that nonsense has to stop!

Yeah, I'm sure those 5 yards, the difference between the Bengals opponents starting spot and the BEST teams' opponents starting spot makes ALL the difference. Give me a friggin break. Larson punted the ball to the one and we allowed a 99 yard touchdown. What a waste of a perfect kick. And if you'll check the tapes, our defense held on the worst field position plays, and relaxed and gave up the big yards on many of the best field position plays.

Yes, field position means a lot, but 5 yards does not affect the game as tremendously as you think. Otherwise more of those top 13 teams would have been in the playoffs. Our offense not going more than 15 yards on many of our possessions affects the game a hell of a lot more than a kickoff starting a team on the 30.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Five yards may mean more than you think. With all the situational kicking - squib and pooch kicks, directional kicking, etc. - a 5 yard differential in average may underlie a significant inability to drive the ball deep when you need it. It hurts when you've just recaptured the momentum with a score and now lead by 2 points with less than a minute to go to have the kickoff sail to the 11 yard line on a line and as a result be returned to the 40.

Nice try with your situational description. But that is not the normal situation and if you'll notice, kicking it 5 yards further resulted for the most part in the ball being returned to the exact same spot as it was returned with a shorter, higher kick. Look at the stats. Several of the kickers that kicked it 5 yards farther got the ball returned 5 yards farther.

Like I said, this is not a major problem. Indianapolis has had one of the worst kickoff seasons this year. And they could win it all. We have other more important things to worry about.

New England has a lower ranking as well. You don't here them bitching.

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Do we need a Kickoff Specialist ..? NO  But improvement is needed for one very simple reason...

I. - Field position affects time of posession ! 

i.e. without the ball or being placed on a shorter field teams have a constant advantage at forcing us to play with our backs to our own endzone. Playbooks become simplified. Offenses become limited because they " just want to get space "  so teams can blitz and gamble more to create a short field.

- make a long answer short...We need kickoffs to land between the 5 yd. line and the back of the endzone instead of the 15- 10 yd. line, or some of Shaynes' nastier kicks that get plenty of air under them but come down at the 20 yard line, that nonsense has to stop!

Yeah, I'm sure those 5 yards, the difference between the Bengals opponents starting spot and the BEST teams' opponents starting spot makes ALL the difference. Give me a friggin break. Larson punted the ball to the one and we allowed a 99 yard touchdown. What a waste of a perfect kick. And if you'll check the tapes, our defense held on the worst field position plays, and relaxed and gave up the big yards on many of the best field position plays.

Yes, field position means a lot, but 5 yards does not affect the game as tremendously as you think. Otherwise more of those top 13 teams would have been in the playoffs. Our offense not going more than 15 yards on many of our possessions affects the game a hell of a lot more than a kickoff starting a team on the 30.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Five yards may mean more than you think. With all the situational kicking - squib and pooch kicks, directional kicking, etc. - a 5 yard differential in average may underlie a significant inability to drive the ball deep when you need it. It hurts when you've just recaptured the momentum with a score and now lead by 2 points with less than a minute to go to have the kickoff sail to the 11 yard line on a line and as a result be returned to the 40.

Nice try with your situational description. But that is not the normal situation and if you'll notice, kicking it 5 yards further resulted for the most part in the ball being returned to the exact same spot as it was returned with a shorter, higher kick. Look at the stats. Several of the kickers that kicked it 5 yards farther got the ball returned 5 yards farther.

Like I said, this is not a major problem. Indianapolis has had one of the worst kickoff seasons this year. And they could win it all. We have other more important things to worry about.

New England has a lower ranking as well. You don't here them bitching.

Hmph! :angry:

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Do we need a Kickoff Specialist ..? NO  But improvement is needed for one very simple reason...

I. - Field position affects time of posession ! 

i.e. without the ball or being placed on a shorter field teams have a constant advantage at forcing us to play with our backs to our own endzone. Playbooks become simplified. Offenses become limited because they " just want to get space "  so teams can blitz and gamble more to create a short field.

- make a long answer short...We need kickoffs to land between the 5 yd. line and the back of the endzone instead of the 15- 10 yd. line, or some of Shaynes' nastier kicks that get plenty of air under them but come down at the 20 yard line, that nonsense has to stop!

Yeah, I'm sure those 5 yards, the difference between the Bengals opponents starting spot and the BEST teams' opponents starting spot makes ALL the difference. Give me a friggin break. Larson punted the ball to the one and we allowed a 99 yard touchdown. What a waste of a perfect kick. And if you'll check the tapes, our defense held on the worst field position plays, and relaxed and gave up the big yards on many of the best field position plays.

Yes, field position means a lot, but 5 yards does not affect the game as tremendously as you think. Otherwise more of those top 13 teams would have been in the playoffs. Our offense not going more than 15 yards on many of our possessions affects the game a hell of a lot more than a kickoff starting a team on the 30.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Five yards may mean more than you think. With all the situational kicking - squib and pooch kicks, directional kicking, etc. - a 5 yard differential in average may underlie a significant inability to drive the ball deep when you need it. It hurts when you've just recaptured the momentum with a score and now lead by 2 points with less than a minute to go to have the kickoff sail to the 11 yard line on a line and as a result be returned to the 40.

Nice try with your situational description. But that is not the normal situation and if you'll notice, kicking it 5 yards further resulted for the most part in the ball being returned to the exact same spot as it was returned with a shorter, higher kick. Look at the stats. Several of the kickers that kicked it 5 yards farther got the ball returned 5 yards farther.

Like I said, this is not a major problem. Indianapolis has had one of the worst kickoff seasons this year. And they could win it all. We have other more important things to worry about.

New England has a lower ranking as well. You don't here them bitching.

Hmph! :angry:

:o:unsure::P:ph34r: :player:

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