THE COACH MUST STAY!!!

[27atwater]

I am reading A LOT of negativity and over the years I have noticed that Cincy has 1 glaring issue...the constant revolving door at the coaching position. Before the team can be "fixed," upper management must buy in to the fact that a team must have consistency and structure. The players cannot be expected to constantly switch philosophies and game plans. They just can't. The message must remain the same. Case in point:

Pittsburgh. Cowher has been there forever. Some say his message gets lost or boring and he needs to go. They are currently 4-1.

Denver. Shanny gets the same wrap sometimes. He can't win without Elway. His message is stale. 5-1.

Philadelphia. I'm 2 hours away. Trust me these people have been calling for Andy Reid's head for 3 years now. Hell, when he drafted McNabb, they wanted him gone. 5-0.

New England. When Parcells left, Belicheck stepped right in. Consistent philosophy. Consistent message. 2 rings and are 5-0.

The proof is in the history. Lewis must stay if this team is to win.

[kybengalsfan]

I agree with you. Marvin's problem at this point is one of team motivation. These guys have no fire. They don't have one player on either side of the ball who fires up their team mates, and the coaches seem to be too stoic and gentlemen like in their approach to playing the game. Darn, I would one time like to see Marvin get angry, show some emotion and get these underachievers fired up. Most of these guys wouldn't get fired up if they had a torch under their rear. I like Palmer, but I wish he would take a lesson from Kitna on how to lead his team.

[Kirkendall]

There's a difference between being negative and calling for the coaches resignation. No one is suggesting Lewis leave; hell this is only his second season and we forget he ALSO is going to get his bumbs and bruises.

Let's examine the first two seasons by the coaches you mentioned.

Shannahan:

Year 1: 8-8

Year 2: 13-3 (we ain't goin' there)

Cowher:

Year 1: 11-5

Year 2: 9-7

Philly:

Year 1: 5-11

Year 2: 11-5

New England:

Year 1: 5-11

Year 2: 11-5 (...and Super bowl)

You may have been better off arguing what Marvin got when he came into the team. Most, if not all, of the above teams you mentioned were teams that had an establishment already created.

I understand your argument, but it only supports it because they're having great years. What I mean is that Jeff Fischer and Mike Sherman isn't mentioned and they had tenures as long.

Again, no one is suggesting Marvin leave; I still think he's the man that's ultimately going to push us towards respectibility (for the second time). He needs to learn, understand his position, and find his role in the world of head-coaching. I've been tough personally on him because I believe when a team loses as bad as the Bengals did Sunday, then the problem isn't offense or defense, it's the coaching.

[jditty47]

lewis should stay. He should get new coordinators though, look what lebeau is doing for pittsburgh.

[27atwater]

I agree that they had better teams, but what were these teams doing before a stable coach arrived.

Also, look at Sherman and Fisher. Until this year, their teams were on top of the mountain. Tennessee made the SB and Green Bay is perennially in the playoffs (my money says that they will be this year too. The NFC is soft, but for 2 teams). Take Holmgren too. Slow to get it going, but it's well on it's way.

Now take some of these recent perennial losers (expansion excluded):

Arizona

Washington

Cincy

Oakland (except for 2 good years)

Dallas

Chicago

Atlanta

San Diego (an exception, admittedly)

Buffalo

NO

Most have had an abundance of coaching shifts in recent years. Thus, no consistency. So to not contradict myself, I do feel that it MAY be time for Haslett to go from NO cuz he has been given the chance and hasn't capitalized yet. I'd be willing to give him another year or 2 though, since these are NOT the same Saints from the '80s and '90s.

[Scottishbengal]

Marvin's problem at this point is one of team motivation. These guys have no fire.

Hmmm, not sure I agree.

4 turnovers against Cleveland doesn't add up to not being up for the game.

I think the problem is somewhat more fundamental than desire - it's down to ability, and at the moment we just don't have enough quality to compete.

Think forward to next year.

We get some nice big hefty guys on the D-line, and they play infront of a young, quick linebacking corp who already have a year or two's experience.

We get an O-Line that'll give Rudi/Perry enough routes to run, and put up enough points so that Carson isn't playing catch-up in the 4th quarter.

We get a receiving corps that can swap it around a bit and take the attention away from CJ.

Then we get to the playoffs!

[kybengalsfan]

Come on, Scotty, let's forget about the draft and think about this year. After five games and we are already thinking about the draft. That stinks; and shows how desperate we are for winning football in Cincy. If everyone talks about the draft for the rest of the year I will be ill.

[Scottishbengal]

I agree we're all desperate for a succesful team but lets not kid ourselves about the draft. If I was the coach I would be scouting the colleges year round to make informed decisions about future players and how they would best help the team.

I also agree this season is far from being over, and there is still a lot to be taken from the remaining matches. Wasn't it at this very same point last year that the team started on a succesful run? I don't think by any stretch of the imagination that we've got a shot at the postseason, but I do believe by the end of this season one or two of the players will start to emerge.

Building a successful team from the shambles Lewis inherited will take several years.

Anyway, the original point I was trying to make was that I don't think motivation is the factor we're lacking on the ballpark, and that I still believe this team has a promising future.

Not wanting to make you ill for the rest of the seaon I'll send you a bottle of Pepto!

[Phatness]

I think someone above stated it best when they talked about Marvin going through his bumps and bruises as well.....I think alot of the problems we are seeing...ie poor tackling, blocking, and not knowing your formations are directly related to the coaching staff.....and improvement needs to be made there....

But IMO Marvin is no different than Carson.....Marvin was essentially the Number One Pick at Head Coach.....its his second year and he is still figuring it all out...it may take some changing in the assistants, but I still think he is the guy that will do it in the long run......

Right now this team needs to be coached in the fundamentals...I think they get caught trying to do to much to often.....settle down and play ball.......

[WhoDey42]

I don't see how anyone can be thinking Marvin should be fired. We had a good season last year (considering what we've done in the past). We have a brand new QB who is going to have troubles and don't forget that Marvin's also going to be learning and having some troubles as well.

I'm not trying to make exuses for loses, because we have been playing horrible, everyone has. But, I just think that Bengals fans need to show CONFIDENCE in the coach both when we're winning and loosing. When we were winning last year how many "In Marvin We Trust" signs did we see? We need to trust Marvin just as much when we're in a slump.

I don't think motivation is the big problem with the team, I think the biggest problems are dropped passes and missed tackles.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Lewis must stay if this team is to win.

Who the hell is asking him to leave? I haven't heard one person asking for him to be fired! Now his offensive and defensive coordinators is another story, and for good reason, but absolutely zero talk for Marvin to go. Where the f**k did this thread come from?

[ArmyBengal]

#1. ML isn't going anywhere and no one has asked for that. Coordinators beware, you suck !!!

#2. I for one always look forward to the draft, it's fun and provides the remainder of frustration I failed to achieve during the season.

#3. The offense is going much like most thought it would with a first year QB and our defense sucks monkey balls.

#4. I still believe in this team and think we still have a shot this Monday like we do every week.

#5. To say Denver is 5-1 case closed about winning without Elway holds no water.

Of the 5 wins, combined record of 9-18. One loss comes from a winning team. Wow !! Hold the run, we win the game, case closed. Boy that sounds familiar.

WHODEY !!!

[Kirkendall]

I don't see how anyone can be thinking Marvin should be fired.

Where was this said? Several of you have said that Marvin shouldn't be fired but don't recall anyone saying Marvin should be fired..

[27atwater]

I never said that others wanted him fired, but knowing the history of the franchise, it obviously a legit concern for ownership to get ancy and let him go prematurely. I just opened it up for discussion. This IS what the site is for, isn't it?

And to say that Denver 5-1 doesn't hold water bcuz of their competition's record is absurd. The point is that Denver has been more than respectable once they kept a coach for more than 3 weeks....Elway or not.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Coordinators beware, you suck !!!

Yup! Another one grasps the obvious! The wave continues to build...

[Kirkendall]

I never said that others wanted him fired, but knowing the history of the franchise, it obviously a legit concern for ownership to get ancy and let him go prematurely. I just opened it up for discussion. This IS what the site is for, isn't it?

And to say that Denver 5-1 doesn't hold water bcuz of their competition's record is absurd. The point is that Denver has been more than respectable once they kept a coach for more than 3 weeks....Elway or not.

Oh. I actually thought you heard something factual or at least rumors.

Secondly, do you actually think we should have kept either Shula, Coslet, or LeBeau? I don't think it's the practice of either allowing coaches to quit or firing them, rather it's the practice of hiring head coaches that aren't qualified to be.

Shula is in a steakhouse. Coslet is a scout -- at least last I heard he was. And LeBeau doesn't have head coaching qualities. He's a masterful defensive coordinator though, and I wish the Bengals made an attempt to keep him on board as such, but it is what it is.

[27atwater]

I'm not saying those 3 are world beaters, but did they get the chance for more than 2 or 3 years? I remember people thinking Lebeau was gonna get something done with the team and then one season goes a step backward and he's out.

I'm also not into firing coaches if your alternatives aren't any better. Why would ya fire Shula if the replacement is Coslett??? Why fire Coslett if ya don't thik Lebeau can get it done. It's like the ownership is simply treading water...and sinking.

[BengalszoneBilly]

And LeBeau doesn't have head coaching qualities. He's a masterful defensive coordinator though, and I wish the Bengals made an attempt to keep him on board as such, but it is what it is.

Maybe successful defensive coordinators (sit down Frazier! I said successful you putz! ) just don't make great head coaches? I mean look at Buddy Ryan. And there's no way you can "demote" a head coach and keep him on your staff. Too many heads would butt with the new head coach!

[wookie]

Now his offensive and defensive coordinators is another story, and for good reason

I have to make 1 comment before I agree with you, and I am agreeing here. When a team is having the problems that Cincy is having right now the head coach does take the blame, after all the HC is the person in charge of his staff.

That said, I think Marvin needs to make a couple of moves. I was impressed that he took over some of the play calling on D last week. He's moving in the right direction. He needs to get rid of Frasier. He may not be able to do this till the end of the season unless he takes over the D for the rest of the year, but there are other guys out there. Maybe even dipping into the college ranks for a Mike Stoops if he could be lured away from a college HC job.

2nd, he needs to get rid of Brat now. Call Zampese and offer him the job now and get a new QB coach. Running the ball for 5 yds on 1st down of your 1st drive last week and then abandoning the run on the next few plays, gaining a 4-5 yd average against Pittsburgh and going away from the run are 2 good examples of why he shouldn't be calling the plays anymore.

The Bengals are playing from behind each week due to sloppy D and no offensive production, and when that happens you lose the ability to dictate the game with the run, and you force Palmer to throw too often. Palmer feels like he has to get it done himself and he forces a throw, and you get an INT. Not rocket science, and I've seen it happen over and over to QBs like Favre and Manning, even McNabb at times...like last year vs the Panthers.

I saying this to point out that you can't lay the blame on Palmer cause he's a 2nd year QB with 5 starts...look what can happen when you have a balanced team and plug in a rookie for his 1st 5 starts in Pittsburgh...he goes 5-0. I watched some of the Cowboys - Steelers game last week and Big Ben looked better than a rookie most of the time...but he could hand off to Staley most of the time, had time in the pocket, and on the rare occasion he had to scramble his WRs actually came back toward him to help him out!!! This is what is needed in Cincy and we'll tear this division up.

Start by replacing the coordinators.

[HoosierCat]

To all this talk of "fire the coordinators!" I have to ask some things.

How many passes did Bratkowski drop? How many blitz pickups did he blow? How many holes did he fail to open for the RB? How many passes did he underthrow? How many routes did he run wrong? How many FGs did he miss? How many INTs and fumbles has he made?

How many tackles has Frazier missed? How many coverages has he blown? How many times has he been blown off the line of scrimmage? How many INTs has he dropped? How many plays has he been taken out of?

We've talked a little bit around here about all the dropped passes in the Cleveland game, but somehow the implication seems to have escaped some people: Brat's game plan may well have worked if the receivers could have caught the damn ball! And it's been mentioned that the Bengals D gave up half its yards and a lot of its points due to 4 big plays. That does not indicate problems with Frazier's scheme (in fact, it argues the opposite), it points to individual occurance of breakdowns or just plain getting beat (as O'Neal was on the now-famous 99-yard TD).

If you want to bust on the coaching staff, the place to look is the position coaches. The problem last week wasn't bad game planning by Bratkowski, it was bad execution by the players. And now you have Chad saying that, basically, he still has Kitna on the brain and hasn't synced up with Palmer yet. And my question to that is, where the hell are Hue Jackson and Ken Zampese?????????? Doing that is precisely their @&%$ing job!!!!!

I fail to see how firing the coordinators will solve much of anything. If Chad can't catch the ball under Brat, how will replacing him with Zampese help? If Deltha O'Neal can't cover under Frazier, how will Breshnahan help? If there's a coaching problem -- and there may well be -- it's at the position coach level. But ultimately, the biggest problem right now is that too many players aren't doing their jobs.

[Jonboat]

Marvin's problem at this point is one of team motivation.  These guys have no fire.

Hmmm, not sure I agree.

4 turnovers against Cleveland doesn't add up to not being up for the game.

I think the problem is somewhat more fundamental than desire - it's down to ability, and at the moment we just don't have enough quality to compete.

Think forward to next year.

We get some nice big hefty guys on the D-line, and they play infront of a young, quick linebacking corp who already have a year or two's experience.

We get an O-Line that'll give Rudi/Perry enough routes to run, and put up enough points so that Carson isn't playing catch-up in the 4th quarter.

We get a receiving corps that can swap it around a bit and take the attention away from CJ.

Then we get to the playoffs!

WHO DEY !! I don't think it's lack of motivation/desire they just ,as ML said ,don't play loose & seem to be afraid of making mistakes. Against Miami they looked much faster than I've ever seen them play because everyone was flying to the ball & didn't seem to worry about making a mistake! Maybe their lacking trust in each other ? . Marvin came into a freakin mess it's going to take more than 1yr. to fix !! I said in the preaseason that I was going to be realistic this year & optimistic next year but I've got to admit it's frustrating so far, I thought they'd play better than they have ! GO BENGALS!!! Jonboat

[Jonboat]

To all this talk of "fire the coordinators!" I have to ask some things.

How many passes did Bratkowski drop? How many blitz pickups did he blow? How many holes did he fail to open for the RB? How many passes did he underthrow? How many routes did he run wrong? How many FGs did he miss? How many INTs and fumbles has he made?

How many tackles has Frazier missed? How many coverages has he blown? How many times has he been blown off the line of scrimmage? How many INTs has he dropped? How many plays has he been taken out of?

We've talked a little bit around here about all the dropped passes in the Cleveland game, but somehow the implication seems to have escaped some people: Brat's game plan may well have worked if the receivers could have caught the damn ball! And it's been mentioned that the Bengals D gave up half its yards and a lot of its points due to 4 big plays. That does not indicate problems with Frazier's scheme (in fact, it argues the opposite), it points to individual occurance of breakdowns or just plain getting beat (as O'Neal was on the now-famous 99-yard TD).

If you want to bust on the coaching staff, the place to look is the position coaches. The problem last week wasn't bad game planning by Bratkowski, it was bad execution by the players. And now you have Chad saying that, basically, he still has Kitna on the brain and hasn't synced up with Palmer yet. And my question to that is, where the hell are Hue Jackson and Ken Zampese?????????? Doing that is precisely their @&%$ing job!!!!!

I fail to see how firing the coordinators will solve much of anything. If Chad can't catch the ball under Brat, how will replacing him with Zampese help? If Deltha O'Neal can't cover under Frazier, how will Breshnahan help? If there's a coaching problem -- and there may well be -- it's at the position coach level. But ultimately, the biggest problem right now is that too many players aren't doing their jobs.

Great post Joiseycat I think you pretty much nailed it !! Marvin said himself that he called some plays to show everyone that it isn't the play calling it's execution! What I find interesting about that comment is he said EVERYONE instead of players, maybe everyone is the players,media,fans ? I don't know I just thought that was kind of odd. GO BENGALS!!! Jonboat

[Kirkendall]

How many passes did Bratkowski drop? How many blitz pickups did he blow? How many holes did he fail to open for the RB? How many passes did he underthrow? How many routes did he run wrong? How many FGs did he miss? How many INTs and fumbles has he made?

How many rushes did he call in the second half? How would you rate his job at trying to confuse the defense? The players can't play well if they aren't put in a position to succeed. The drops are bad, but this has been going on for more than a year; not so much the case for dropped passes.

How many tackles has Frazier missed? How many coverages has he blown? How many times has he been blown off the line of scrimmage? How many INTs has he dropped? How many plays has he been taken out of?

Why would he put our less than average CBs in a situation to single cover? Why would he blitz on downs in which the league average pass play is less than the yards the opposing offense is required for a first down?

Why do both insist on calling plays with players they know aren't going to succeed.

And it's been mentioned that the Bengals D gave up half its yards and a lot of its points due to 4 big plays. That does not indicate problems with Frazier's scheme (in fact, it argues the opposite), it points to individual occurance of breakdowns or just plain getting beat (as O'Neal was on the now-famous 99-yard TD).

Who was behind O'Neal? No one? Doesn't that suggest EXACTLY a play calling problem?

If there's a coaching problem -- and there may well be -- it's at the position coach level. But ultimately, the biggest problem right now is that too many players aren't doing their jobs.

Absolutely. But we've been discussing this for 2 years now. We've been talking about dropped passes since the Cleveland game.

[San Antonio Bengal]

Come on, Scotty, let's forget about the draft and think about this year.  After five games and we are already thinking about the draft.  That stinks; and shows how desperate we are for winning football in Cincy.  If everyone talks about the draft for the rest of the year I will be ill.

I, for one, will not be talking about the draft. I will be talking about University of Kentucky basketball! The first exhibition game is 2 weeks away!

Just trying to add some levity around here. (Although I am really excited about the upcoming basketball season)

[HoosierCat]

kirk:

How many rushes did he call in the second half?

How many yards did they get? Was the o-line doing crap to open holes?

The drops are bad, but this has been going on for more than a year; not so much the case for dropped passes. 

That's my point! Let's see: run not working. OK, switch to pass because you have dependable receivers, right? It's supposed to be one of the few strengths of the team, right? Carson delivers the ball on target -- and the receiver drops it! How the hell is that Brat's fault? Looking back on it, I was wrong to be upset by the lack of runs in the second half. Brat's call was right on. Carson could deliver the ball and the Cleveland secondary couldn't stop those plays. Unfortunately, our own butterfingered receivers could.

Why would he put our less than average CBs in a situation to single cover?  Why would he blitz on downs in which the league average pass play is less than the yards the opposing offense is required for a first down? 

Because they're the only corners he has? Because James and O'Neal had played pretty well this year so far? Heck, James had 2 picks already in the game? As for the blitzing, pick your poison: do we allow them to complete a pass knowing our guys are lucky to make a tackle, or do we try to prevent the pass in the first place, even though we're lucky to get pressure?

Why do both insist on calling plays with players they know aren't going to succeed.

How is it Brat & Frazier's fault that they don't have the horses? How would replacing either or both of them make the players any better? I repeat: Brat's game plan would have worked fine if his wideouts would catch the freaking ball, and don't try to tell me that was an unreasonable expectation. And Frazier's scheme seemed to hold its own on about 66 out of 70 Cleveland snaps. It's the players, not the plan.

Who was behind O'Neal?  No one?  Doesn't that suggest EXACTLY a play calling problem?

I thought you said elsewhere you didn't want to fire Marvin Lewis. He called that formation on that play personally! Go read it for yourself on bengals.com.