Nate Webster

[Kirkendall]

I'm in agreement with everyone here, including Shula..

I think our 98 draft was good defensively and this year -- keep in mind these rookies could be the future Bengals -- in between hasn't been too impressive.

In parenthesis is round...

99 - Charles Fisher (2nd), Corey Hall (3rd) and Kelly Gregg (6th)

00 - Mark Roman (2nd), Robert Bean (5th) -- both defensive picks and both are DB's

01 - Justin Smith (1st), Riall Johnson (6th)

02 - Lamont Thompson (2nd), Marquand Manuel (6th)

03 - Dennis Weathersby (4th), Abdullah (5th), Moore (6th), Patterson (7th)

While we have picked up defensive players in the first and second round, a total of four picks in five years -- other than Smith and Packer Roman -- no one has clearly proven a thing in the NFL.

[Black'n'Orange]

Aaaarrrggghhh! Thanks for the stats Josh!

[BengalBobNC]

Another first rounder on defense that I always forget about: Justin Smith

I forget about him because I just don't hear about him.

After Chris Miller, the Bengals took 6 defensive players, 2 in the second round.

Don't get hung up on first round draft picks. We've had more than our fair share of busts. Maybe some didn't work out because of poor coaching. The last problem we have right now is coaching related.

If I were the GM, I'd be more hated than Mike Brown. It would be easier to move a mountain than to convince me not to trade away any first round draft pick for multiple 2nd round picks and/or proven players. Why? First rounders have not proven they can play in the NFL and they cost W-A-Y too much to find out if they can. It is high risk. If they work out, like Palmer is looking like right now, money well spent.

Akili Smith

Justin Smith - 4th overall pick in 2001

Big Daddy - #1 pick

David Klingler

Ki-Jana Carter - #1 pick

If they don't work out, you can't afford more help for years. No way. Ki-Jana just had bad luck. Justin, one great year does not make you a star with a star's paycheck. Klingler and Akili didn't have the coaching needed or people around them. Even if they did they probably wouldn't have worked out.

I would rather spend the money on roster guys who have proven their worth, or free agents who have.

Notable second rounders and beyond:

Chad Johnson (second round, 5th pick, 36th overall)

Esiason 2nd round

Dillon 2nd round

Collinsworth 2nd round (David Verser was picked in the 1st rd, who was better???? Cris by far)

Krumrie (7th rd)

Low round picks don't guarantee anything either...but they don't cost as much to find out if they can play.

[Tampa Bengal]

While we have picked up defensive players in the first and second round, a total of four picks in five years -- other than Smith and Packer Roman -- no one has clearly proven a thing in the NFL.

I agree with most of the statement. I think the jury is still out on Justin Smith. He may have an awesome season if any other lineman can generate some kind of pressure. As far as the 2003 draft, they never really got a chance to play so it's a little unfair saying they didn't prove anything. I say give them at least 3 years and then see.

[Kirkendall]

Aaaarrrggghhh! Thanks for the stats Josh!

Depressing isn't it?

Look at it this way. 2003 was the draft for our future offense, the 2004 draft was our future defense.

[BengalBobNC]

Just found on the Internet (the Internet is amazing)

Bengals first round draft picks:

2004 Chris Perry RB Michigan

2003 Carson Palmer QB USC

2002 Levi Jones OT Arizona St

2001 Justin Smith DE Missouri

2000 Peter Warrick WR Florida State

1999 Akili Smith QB Oregon

1998 Takeo Spikes LB Auburn

Brian Simmons LB North Carolina

1997 Reinard Wilson DE Florida State

1996 Willie Anderson OT Auburn

1995 Ki-Jana Carter RB Penn State

1994 Dan Wilkinson DT Ohio State

1993 John Copeland DE Alabama

1992 David Klingler QB Houston

Darryl Williams S Miami

1991 Alfred Williams LB Colorado

1990 James Francis LB Baylor

1989 NO PICK

1988 Rickey Dixon CB Oklahoma

1987 Jason Buck DE Brigham Young

1986 Joe Kelly LB Washington

Tim McGee WR Tennessee

1985 Eddie Brown WR Miami

Emanuel King LB Alabama

1984 Ricky Hunley LB Arizona

Pete Koch DE Maryland

Brian Blados OL North Carolina

1983 Dave Rimington C Nebraska

1982 Glen Collins DE Mississippi State

1981 David Verser WR Kansas

1980 Anthony Munoz OT Southern Cal

1979 Jack Thompson QB Washington State

1978 Ross Browner DE Notre Dame

Blair Bush C Washington

1977 Eddie Edwards DE Miami

Wilson Whitley DT Houston

Mike Cobb TE Michigan State

1976 Billy Brooks WR Oklahoma

Archie Griffin RB Ohio State

1975 Glenn Cameron LB Florida

1974 Bill Kollar DT Montana State

1973 Isaac Curtis WR San Diego State

1972 Sherman White DE California

1971 Vernon Holland OT Tennessee State

1970 Mike Reid DT Penn State

1969 Greg Cook QB Cincinnati

1968 Bob Johnson C Tennessee

Defensive picks are in italics and in bold dating back to our last Super Bowl.

[TippCityRick]

Hey, don't forget Lamont Thompson in the list of impact draftees. He returned an interception for a score on Saturday for TN . . . I believe the only time he's ever seen the ball!!

We reach . . . we always reach. Many "experts" feel we reached a lot this year. Until our picks are coached up and we see them make plays on Sunday, I will say that we reached for at least our first 3 picks. Here's where I jump ship and say, (all together now) "IN MARVIN WE TRUST!"

[BengalBobNC]

"IN MARVIN WE TRUST!"

I'm fully on board that ship! The man knows what he is doing.

AND he is just starting his second year!

[HoosierCat]

Look at it this way. 2003 was the draft for our future offense, the 2004 draft was our future defense.

Almost exactly right. I say "almost" because we did make provision for the D in 2003 with the selections of Weathersby and Abdullah. Both of whom would have been starting yesterday instead of Madieu and Johnson were it not for their own season-ending injuries.

Frankly, I don't know why Marvin doesn't have a big welt on his forehead from slamming it against the wall constantly. Almost every step he's taken in the last two years to build up this D has blown up in his face in the last few months. Weathersby and Abdullah -- the team's top 2 defensive draft picks last year -- both gone for the year. Trade for Deltha O'Neal? Ankle goes snap, misses most of training camp, preseason and, so far, the first game. Got a deal with Daryl Gardener to stiffen the d-line? Great...no, wait, his back is shot. Well, at least he picked up an experienced safety in Herring...who proceeds to get dinged in the first freakin' game!

[jditty47]

Thompson sure didnt have no impact here or Roman for that matter. Both are better off elsewhere and im glad we dont have them.

and usually the 2nd round picks are usually as good as the first round picks cuz they either A come from a smaller less known school and are the only great player there, or B they are seniors and have had 2-3 good seasons and 1 bad one.

[TippCityRick]

ah, j, i was kinda kiddin' a bit bout lamont's impact anywhere.

[FonzieDog]

Interesting fact that the Bengals tape showed him with 7 tackles, instead of 3. Still not satisfactory, but I've never really given thought to inaccuracies in tackling statistics...

I think a more telling stat instead of tackles is missed tackles. How many times did Webster whiff on a tackle. I saw him whiff on Curtis Martin's first touchdown.

[Tampa Bengal]

Interesting fact that the Bengals tape showed him with 7 tackles, instead of 3.

The same refs that missed the fumble must have been counting the tackles.

[kevnz]

Interesting fact that the Bengals tape showed him with 7 tackles, instead of 3.

The same refs that missed the fumble must have been counting the tackles.

The same refs that called back a touchdown on a holding penalty on a blatent offsides play? Those same refs? Marvin needs to do what Tice did last year. Make a tape of the officiating and send a complaint to the NFL. We need to start having some calls go our way.

[BengalszoneBilly]

The same refs that called back a touchdown on a holding penalty on a blatent offsides play? Those same refs? Marvin needs to do what Tice did last year. Make a tape of the officiating and send a complaint to the NFL. We need to start having some calls go our way.

Listen guys. If the Bengals defensive coordinator would start motivating and inspiring his defensive squad to play with the same intensity and purpose that they showed us during the New England game, we wouldn't have to worry wheather or not the calls went for or against us. The large points advantage we would have would make the point moot!

[kybengalsfan]

I think Marvin needs to light a fire under Frazier's rear! I didn't see any emotion from the D on Sunday, not one time.

[skyline]

The same refs that called back a touchdown on a holding penalty on a blatent offsides play? Those same refs? Marvin needs to do what Tice did last year. Make a tape of the officiating and send a complaint to the NFL. We need to start having some calls go our way.

Listen guys. If the Bengals defensive coordinator would start motivating and inspiring his defensive squad to play with the same intensity and purpose that they showed us during the New England game, we wouldn't have to worry wheather or not the calls went for or against us. The large points advantage we would have would make the point moot!

Ok, Billy. You've mentioned the motivation things enough times now. Unless you're in the locker room or attending the practices, you have no idea what kind of motivation Frazier is bringing to the table. If the situation doesn't get straightened out this season, then yes...let's change it up.

You can coach and motivate until your head spins, but if guys miss their assignments, then there's not much you can do. Give it some before we decide whether it is the coaching, the players, or both. Let's also give the team some time for their starters to get healthy, and the rookies to get more than 1 game of experience. After all that happens, THEN maybe we can start blaming Frazier for a lack of "motivational" skills.

[kevnz]

The same refs that called back a touchdown on a holding penalty on a blatent offsides play? Those same refs? Marvin needs to do what Tice did last year. Make a tape of the officiating and send a complaint to the NFL. We need to start having some calls go our way.

Listen guys. If the Bengals defensive coordinator would start motivating and inspiring his defensive squad to play with the same intensity and purpose that they showed us during the New England game, we wouldn't have to worry wheather or not the calls went for or against us. The large points advantage we would have would make the point moot!

agreed with you Billy, but it still doesn't hurt to have the ref not against you. There will be more close games this year, I'd hate to see the outcome affected by a bad call. Plus hey, bad officials need to be held accountable just like a bad coaching job by our D coordinator.

[WHO DEY AGAIN?]

I think Billy's point is valid. Even Wilcots said they lacked fire. Let's hope the home crowd gets them going and it will no longer be an issue. IMO they were not aggressive and lacked intensity and thats not how this D needs to play. I think the Sunday night home crowd will cure this for now.

Keep the faith and look at it as a young defense that will improve as the year goes on. That would be the opposite of last years D. :player: :player: :player:

[skyline]

I think Billy's point is valid. Even Wilcots said they lacked fire. Let's hope the home crowd gets them going and it will no longer be an issue. IMO they were not aggressive and lacked intensity and thats not how this D needs to play. I think the Sunday night home crowd will cure this for now.

Keep the faith and look at it as a young defense that will improve as the year goes on. That would be the opposite of last years D. :player: :player: :player:

When was the last time you saw a defense get run over look like they were full of fire? Motivation isn't always THE answer. It's one factor of a much larger equation.

Also, good players are self-motivated. Yes, a motivational coach helps, but it isn't a necessary thing for the defensive coordinator to really get the guys pumped up. I think Lewis handles that aspect pretty well, anyway. Not every coach has to be an inspirational icon.

Anyway, I'm not saying that bad coaching isn't a part of this. It very well could be. What I AM saying is that we can't chalk the poor defense entirely up to bad coaching and move on.

I'm a great teacher, but yet some of my best students still bomb tests here and there. Let's see what they do over the next few weeks, and then decide if bad coaching is to blame.

[kybengalsfan]

Hey, Skyline, I can see you are a humble and contrite teacher, also

[kevnz]

Anyway, I'm not saying that bad coaching isn't a part of this. It very well could be. What I AM saying is that we can't chalk the poor defense entirely up to bad coaching and move on.

I'm a great teacher, but yet some of my best students still bomb tests here and there. Let's see what they do over the next few weeks, and then decide if bad coaching is to blame.

I think Skyline might be onto something. If we aren't ready to put Carson in the probowl for his performance Sunday we shouldn't be ready to burn Frazier at the stake either....But I'm telling ya, if they tank it up Sunday night on International TV (yeah baby I get to see them live ) then yeah Coach Lewis needs to intervine. How can the D not be fired up when the O was playing like they were? Even self motivated they should have been fired up enough when the offense kept coming back to cover their sorry asses.

[kevnz]

How can the D not be fired up when the O was playing like they were? Even self motivated they should have been fired up enough when the offense kept coming back to cover their sorry asses.

And to further that. How the hell could they not want to be better. The O was pumped up for the game. Carson controlled that offense and to see the D let them down that badly, how can they look themselves in the mirror? The worse thing is, if the pattern keeps up, the team has a real shot at getting split down the middle. I mean have you seen the love Chad/Willie/P-dub have for Carson? How do you think those guys feel about having their games wasted cause the D can't tackle someone?

But the solution is pretty damn simple. Tackle the man with the ball, HARD :player:

[skyline]

Hey, Skyline, I can see you are a humble and contrite teacher, also

I have confidence in the things I do well. Those things are few and far between, but I value what few things I've been given.

[Bobcat Bengal]

I think Billy's point is valid. Even Wilcots said they lacked fire. Let's hope the home crowd gets them going and it will no longer be an issue.

When was the last time you saw a defense get run over look like they were full of fire? Motivation isn't always THE answer. It's one factor of a much larger equation.

Maybe we should take a page from the (dare I say it) Cleveland Browns book. They were fired the f**k up for their game, and hell bent on not letting Jamal Lewis run all over them...if those guys can get riled up, we sure as hell can, and should. :player: