Browns @ Bengals Game Thread

[cincyhokie]

At some point they'll go through a season with no injuries and win it all.

I know that's meant as semi-snark but it almost happened in 2005. They had very few injuries that year and what few they did had came back fast (in detriment to their careers). Then Kimo happened and it all blew up.

That was the season tha taught me "next man up" is a complete load of crap.

Obviously, success depends alot on if it's a mix of both being healthy and having good depth.

The problem with the Bengals seems to be that the one position that is the most crucial gets affected the most. The QB.

This defense got this team to the playoffs the last 3 seasons, not Dalton. The lack of defense due to injuries and players sucking has put a lot on his shoulders and he's not good enough to mitigate it.

Dalton is first and foremost a QB that can be successful with an awesome defense. We're seeing what happens when things erode on that side of the ball.

So the question remains. Do you really want your most important position player to be a guy who is so limited that when the contingencies hit the fan, he is exposed?

He's Kitna 2.0.

[gregcook68]

Okay, I have no idea what everyone's experience here is, but I'm guessing we have some experienced college players and/or coaches, based some of the strategies and ideas posted here.

I'm also assuming that most of these Bengal coaches have at least the same knowledge or more.

Assuming all this to be correct, there has to be a reason we are seeing the decisions that are being made by the Bengal coaches.

(Example; after the first series of the game, all running plays for a first down, the run is abandoned to pass play resulting in an interception.)

I'm trying to come up with every plausible option I can think of as to why the decisions are being made as opposed to the ideas and strategies offered up in here.

I can only come up with these 2:

1. Since we aren't privy to what goes on behind closed doors, practices, game preps and sideline/booth strategies, there's things we don't know about that come into play that give coaches reasons for their decisions.

2. Many of the strategies and ideas from here have been proposed in the past, but have fallen on deaf ears with Brown/Lewis, so the coaches just carry on, wanting to keep their jobs.

Anyone else?

There's gotta be a reason that they do things the way they do.

[cincyhokie]

Okay, I have no idea what everyone's experience here is, but I'm guessing we have some experienced college players and/or coaches, based some of the strategies and ideas posted here.

I'm also assuming that most of these Bengal coaches have at least the same knowledge or more.

Assuming all this to be correct, there has to be a reason we are seeing the decisions that are being made by the Bengal coaches.

(Example; after the first series of the game, all running plays for a first down, the run is abandoned to pass play resulting in an interception.)

I'm trying to come up with every plausible option I can think of as to why the decisions are being made as opposed to the ideas and strategies offered up in here.

I can only come up with these 2:

1. Since we aren't privy to what goes on behind closed doors, practices, game preps and sideline/booth strategies, there's things we don't know about that come into play that give coaches reasons for their decisions.

2. Many of the strategies and ideas from here have been proposed in the past, but have fallen on deaf ears with Brown/Lewis, so the coaches just carry on, wanting to keep their jobs.

Anyone else?

There's gotta be a reason that they do things the way they do.

The same reason that there are successful coaches and those that aren't. The same reason why Jay Gruden admitted last year that he'd abandon the plays that we're working because "he figured the defense would eventually adjust". Ironically, that is what many fans were thinking in that this experienced coach was errant in his decision making.

As far as these past few games and the criticisms, they are the same coming from analysts that were once NFL players. It isn't an exact science. Coaches are human too. Ones that are lacking are open to criticism.

[gregcook68]

Okay, I have no idea what everyone's experience here is, but I'm guessing we have some experienced college players and/or coaches, based some of the strategies and ideas posted here.

I'm also assuming that most of these Bengal coaches have at least the same knowledge or more.

Assuming all this to be correct, there has to be a reason we are seeing the decisions that are being made by the Bengal coaches.

(Example; after the first series of the game, all running plays for a first down, the run is abandoned to pass play resulting in an interception.)

I'm trying to come up with every plausible option I can think of as to why the decisions are being made as opposed to the ideas and strategies offered up in here.

I can only come up with these 2:

1. Since we aren't privy to what goes on behind closed doors, practices, game preps and sideline/booth strategies, there's things we don't know about that come into play that give coaches reasons for their decisions.

2. Many of the strategies and ideas from here have been proposed in the past, but have fallen on deaf ears with Brown/Lewis, so the coaches just carry on, wanting to keep their jobs.

Anyone else?

There's gotta be a reason that they do things the way they do.

The same reason that there are successful coaches and those that aren't. The same reason why Jay Gruden admitted last year that he'd abandon the plays that we're working because "he figured the defense would eventually adjust". Ironically, that is what many fans were thinking in that this experienced coach was errant in his decision making.

As far as these past few games and the criticisms, they are the same coming from analysts that were once NFL players. It isn't an exact science. Coaches are human too. Ones that are lacking are open to criticism.

I get all of that cincyhokie. What I don't get, is there are reasons, right or wrong, for the decisions they make. I guess I am asking for something we may never know unless they voluntarily say on the media.

Even if they are wrong and acknowledge a mistake surely they come up with a plan B?

I can understand coaches in new positions like Guenther, under the learning curve, but experienced guys not seeing, what seems to be simple strategy given by forum fans, just doesn't compute for me. I just don't get it.

[HoosierCat]

The thing is, the coaches don't appear to be doing a bad job overall. The Bengals are 5-3-1 and would be 6-3 if Nugent could kick. Teams with bad coaching don't rack up that kind of record.

The problem is The Big Game. It's in their heads. And the coaches need to change up how they approach those games. Finally this week Marvin admitted they have an issue in prime time, something he and team leaders like Whit have always denied. Now that they have crossed that river in Egypt maybe there will be changes.

[volcom69]

At some point they'll go through a season with no injuries and win it all.

I know that's meant as semi-snark but it almost happened in 2005. They had very few injuries that year and what few they did had came back fast (in detriment to their careers). Then Kimo happened and it all blew up.

That was the season tha taught me "next man up" is a complete load of crap.

Obviously, success depends alot on if it's a mix of both being healthy and having good depth.

The problem with the Bengals seems to be that the one position that is the most crucial gets affected the most. The QB.

This defense got this team to the playoffs the last 3 seasons, not Dalton. The lack of defense due to injuries and players sucking has put a lot on his shoulders and he's not good enough to mitigate it.

Dalton is first and foremost a QB that can be successful with an awesome defense. We're seeing what happens when things erode on that side of the ball.

So the question remains. Do you really want your most important position player to be a guy who is so limited that when the contingencies hit the fan, he is exposed?

He's Kitna 2.0.

If the fact that they are putting a limit on Dalton, then take off the leash and let him play. Now I don't know what difference it would be, but take the training wheels off him and let's see what he really is. What's it really going to hurt.

[GapControl]

Couple notes on things I've read in this thread:

First name Rey was playing great before he got injured. Yes, he missed an inspace tackle during a game and it was replayed on TV. Big deal, a pro running back made a linebacker miss. Look at the defense since he got injured. No one can take on the a gap for running plays on this team like him.

We can't say Hunt is a bust because Old man Geathers gets all the snaps. Geathers is an anchor in the defense who is supposed to contain then break down on the ball carrier. He once was ok at that. About his 2nd and 3rd year in the league once they realized his pass rush was limited. He got a lot of guaranteed money back then so they've never cut him. He is a weak spot on the line. Honestly, he should be a depth player at best.

Gresham is limited in the passing game because he is required to run block since the line can't do it without him. I'm looking at you Whit and you Boling. Zeitler is hurt and I think Andre was hurt before but didn't want to tell the coaches. That's why the bengals don't game plan heavy run offenses. Honestly, Whit should have never been a LT in this league. He is an all-pro left guard playing out of position because Alexander has a hard-on for doing things his own way, screw the results. See: bengals centers suck See: dancing bear See: don't resign steinbach, I like livings.

AJ green is nasty. Even Rice and Moss dropped balls and had fumbles.

Atkins is hurt. Burfict is hurt. That's why we get run all over this year.

This secondary has played the best of any group on the team and is one of the top groups in the league. With no pressure from the line or linebackers it is impossible to cover long enough. Just because hall gets beat after 4 seconds doesn't mean he sucks. Same goes for Newman and Jones.

The Bengals are blitzing. They blitz just as much as they have anytime since Marvin came. They just aren't getting to the running back and quarterback fast enough. Recently a backup LB core has been exposed in their naivety by quick throws. That's why you think the team isn't blitzing on pass plays. The ball is already gone before the blitzed ever gets near.

Dalton is too easy to game plan against. He was Jay Gruden's pick and it was wrong. Hue has tried to make an offense suited to his mental and physical skills. It doesnt work consistently because Dalton isn't good enough. End of story. He is limited. Without a strong run game, he will never even be Trent Dilfer. He has almost no pocket awareness.

[cincyhokie]

Couple notes on things I've read in this thread:

First name Rey was playing great before he got injured. Yes, he missed an inspace tackle during a game and it was replayed on TV. Big deal, a pro running back made a linebacker miss. Look at the defense since he got injured. No one can take on the a gap for running plays on this team like him.

We can't say Hunt is a bust because Old man Geathers gets all the snaps. Geathers is an anchor in the defense who is supposed to contain then break down on the ball carrier. He once was ok at that. About his 2nd and 3rd year in the league once they realized his pass rush was limited. He got a lot of guaranteed money back then so they've never cut him. He is a weak spot on the line. Honestly, he should be a depth player at best.

Gresham is limited in the passing game because he is required to run block since the line can't do it without him. I'm looking at you Whit and you Boling. Zeitler is hurt and I think Andre was hurt before but didn't want to tell the coaches. That's why the bengals don't game plan heavy run offenses. Honestly, Whit should have never been a LT in this league. He is an all-pro left guard playing out of position because Alexander has a hard-on for doing things his own way, screw the results. See: bengals centers suck See: dancing bear See: don't resign steinbach, I like livings.

AJ green is nasty. Even Rice and Moss dropped balls and had fumbles.

Atkins is hurt. Burfict is hurt. That's why we get run all over this year.

This secondary has played the best of any group on the team and is one of the top groups in the league. With no pressure from the line or linebackers it is impossible to cover long enough. Just because hall gets beat after 4 seconds doesn't mean he sucks. Same goes for Newman and Jones.

The Bengals are blitzing. They blitz just as much as they have anytime since Marvin came. They just aren't getting to the running back and quarterback fast enough. Recently a backup LB core has been exposed in their naivety by quick throws. That's why you think the team isn't blitzing on pass plays. The ball is already gone before the blitzed ever gets near.

Dalton is too easy to game plan against. He was Jay Gruden's pick and it was wrong. Hue has tried to make an offense suited to his mental and physical skills. It doesnt work consistently because Dalton isn't good enough. End of story. He is limited. Without a strong run game, he will never even be Trent Dilfer. He has almost no pocket awareness.

Don't forget to add useless bodies in there such as Geathers and Peko. Taking up starting spots despite being basically ineffective.

[ArmyBengal]

If the lack of pass rush is due to the ball getting out quickly, then the secondary isn't really covering that long.

[volcom69]

Ok so after reading all of that and I agree with what we are saying here, this team has way to many holes, and is not very good. Then they better have a hell of a draft, and free agency coming up this year. There is a lot of dead weight on this team that needs to go.

I agree with Whit should be moved to guard, last year the line never looked so good with Whit playing guard. Before the season started go back and look how many of us called for Whit to play guard. Sometimes I wonder about these coaches, and when watching film they really see greatness in some of these players, or if they watch it wearing blindfolds.

[ArmyBengal]

I so wanted to see AC at LT with Whit moving inside to LG continue.

I still think they go OT early and I wouldn't mind a bit to see that still happen.

A rookie LT would fare much better in his first couple seasons with Whit next to him.

Maybe this will be one of those better late than never situations.

[HoosierCat]

The oline definitely needs work. Moobs is hurt (again). Zeitler is hurt (again). Boling is just a guy. Whit as discussed, is just OK at tackle these days. Bodine gets a pass as a rookie but I don't know if he's really the future at C or not.

But Gap is right: the oline is Lord Alexander the Not-so-Great's personal playground and rule No. 1 of being a Bengals offensive lineman is that the most important thing is kissing Paul's fat azz. Stacey, Mathis, Cook, Tackle Eligible etc. if he likes you, you play, if not, doesn't matter how good you are, you sit.

Short of a couple guys retiring, the only way I see improvement is getting lucky with a lack of injuries. Didn't happen this year so we're screwed.

[GapControl]

If the lack of pass rush is due to the ball getting out quickly, then the secondary isn't really covering that long.

I think the quick passing is targeting the linebackers more than the defensive backs. That's why TEs are once again beating us up. Hall as a slot corner and Lamur in his hybrid role have the most difficult jobs when it comes to quick, short passes. Overall Leon has done well, though.

I'm sure the saints are going to do the same. What's bad is the quick passes are getting a few yards at a time and the running game is gashing us. Now, throw in the occasional big play bomb or missed tackle big gain and you have a defense that averages giving up 3.5 touchdowns per game.

Our offense hasn't been able to keep up with that. Their ball control has been terrible at times giving even more of an opportunity for our defense to fail. Especially late in the game like we saw with Jacksonville.

Oh... And turnovers by the O hurt as well obviously.

[TJJackson]

If you put Whit at OLG - who's your OLT, with Collins long gone?

Please dont say Newhouse, I may injury myself laughing so hard

Give Mr ThirteenReps a try?

Bring back in TackleEligible74?

[HoosierCat]

Time to unleash the Hawk!

[volcom69]

If you put Whit at OLG - who's your OLT, with Collins long gone?

Please dont say Newhouse, I may injury myself laughing so hard

Give Mr ThirteenReps a try?

Bring back in TackleEligible74?

Newhouse was the bengals big signing this year............lol lol lol

They really don't have anybody they him walk, which is why I wished they would have thought about this better.

[TJJackson]

Time to unleash the Hawk!

no, no, no - his nickname is Thirteen, short for 13 reps

[ArmyBengal]

I don't think they should move Whit now, but rather next year after drafting an LT in the first.

Bring up the rookie with Whit next to him. Good by me.

[cincyhokie]

The problem is The Big Game. It's in their heads. And the coaches need to change up how they approach those games. Finally this week Marvin admitted they have an issue in prime time, something he and team leaders like Whit have always denied. Now that they have crossed that river in Egypt maybe there will be changes.

Not to go back to the playoff aftermath last January but I was calling for this in the midst of my half drunk ranting on this very board. I was criticized for suggesting they did just this. I was, more than likely, deserving criticism in the way that I delivered my rant. I'll say that...

OWNING the deficiencies, in stead of denying them, gets you closer to figuring out what's wrong. No shame in that. Call it for what it is and fix it. Weak minded? Scared? Tentative? Whatever you need to do. Admit your humanity, come clean, and let's get on to fixing it. Deadpanned behind the post game microphone and blindly using the cliche lines DOES NOTHING. It doesn't help the players and it certainly doesn't help the team.

[TJJackson]

I don't think they should move Whit now, but rather next year after drafting an LT in the first.

Bring up the rookie with Whit next to him. Good by me. GIMME A LINEMAN!

fixed it for ya

no charge

yer welcome

[ArmyBengal]

I don't think they should move Whit now, but rather next year after drafting an LT in the first.

Bring up the rookie with Whit next to him. Good by me. GIMME A LINEMAN!

fixed it for ya

no charge

yer welcome

All equates to the same, so i'm good. I'm right there in your camp TJ !!!

:bengal:

[GapControl]

The problem is The Big Game. It's in their heads. And the coaches need to change up how they approach those games. Finally this week Marvin admitted they have an issue in prime time, something he and team leaders like Whit have always denied. Now that they have crossed that river in Egypt maybe there will be changes.

Not to go back to the playoff aftermath last January but I was calling for this in the midst of my half drunk ranting on this very board. I was criticized for suggesting they did just this. I was, more than likely, deserving criticism in the way that I delivered my rant. I'll say that...

OWNING the deficiencies, in stead of denying them, gets you closer to figuring out what's wrong. No shame in that. Call it for what it is and fix it. Weak minded? Scared? Tentative? Whatever you need to do. Admit your humanity, come clean, and let's get on to fixing it. Deadpanned behind the post game microphone and blindly using the cliche lines DOES NOTHING. It doesn't help the players and it certainly doesn't help the team.

As fans we want to be told exactly what the coaches think about certain players. We especially want to know what coaches think the player needs to do in the scheme as far as their technique goes to make the team better. It isn't going to happen in a press conference. Seriously... No coach is going to give away inside information on what his players are deficient at. The opponent will use it to beat the player in the very next game!

[GapControl]

I agree with you all that the oline needs addressed. Weren't we all saying that before the season started ?

[HoosierCat]

Not to go back to the playoff aftermath last January but I was calling for this in the midst of my half drunk ranting on this very board. I was criticized for suggesting they did just this. I was, more than likely, deserving criticism in the way that I delivered my rant. I'll say that...

No worries. We're all dicks here.

[cincyhokie]

The problem is The Big Game. It's in their heads. And the coaches need to change up how they approach those games. Finally this week Marvin admitted they have an issue in prime time, something he and team leaders like Whit have always denied. Now that they have crossed that river in Egypt maybe there will be changes.

Not to go back to the playoff aftermath last January but I was calling for this in the midst of my half drunk ranting on this very board. I was criticized for suggesting they did just this. I was, more than likely, deserving criticism in the way that I delivered my rant. I'll say that...

OWNING the deficiencies, in stead of denying them, gets you closer to figuring out what's wrong. No shame in that. Call it for what it is and fix it. Weak minded? Scared? Tentative? Whatever you need to do. Admit your humanity, come clean, and let's get on to fixing it. Deadpanned behind the post game microphone and blindly using the cliche lines DOES NOTHING. It doesn't help the players and it certainly doesn't help the team.

As fans we want to be told exactly what the coaches think about certain players. We especially want to know what coaches think the player needs to do in the scheme as far as their technique goes to make the team better. It isn't going to happen in a press conference. Seriously... No coach is going to give away inside information on what his players are deficient at. The opponent will use it to beat the player in the very next game!

My point wasn't about a press conference it was about denial. I really don't expect Marvin to change in that regard. However, humble honesty in the locker room is needed. Say with me! "I am Marvin Lewis and I choke in big games." "Hi Marvin. I'm Andy Dalton and I am scared of failing in the national spotlight."