Interesting QB Playoff Stats

[gregcook68]

I think Andy should be given the opportunity this season regardless. He's shown too much promise.

However, the opportunity will lessen (see end) if 2014 falls to crap.

I believe Hue will indeed make a difference in the offense that plays to what Andy should be expected to do.

He shouldn't be expected to throw the ball 51 damn times thinking that's the best approach.

I think the o-line should be reinforced, but I really don't see much change for 2014.

The only variation is whether or not Collins comes back, but I don't think Cook goes anywhere.

I mentioned before about him being under contract as well as the coaches liking him.

I'm guessing, but there are one of two options I actually see happening with the opening day o-line.

If they bring back Collins: (Collins, Whit, Cook, Zeitler, Smith)

If Collins isn't back: (Whit, Boling, Cook, Zeitler, Smith)

If it's the 2nd of the two, they will just have to hope and pray that the changes Hue makes will be the difference maker for Dalton.

Agree. Can't see how they wouldn't see benefit of keeping Whit at guard. With Hue at the helm we will need both run and pass blockers.

[cincyhokie]

I think Andy should be given the opportunity this season regardless. He's shown too much promise.

However, the opportunity will lessen (see end) if 2014 falls to crap.

I believe Hue will indeed make a difference in the offense that plays to what Andy should be expected to do.

He shouldn't be expected to throw the ball 51 damn times thinking that's the best approach.

I think the o-line should be reinforced, but I really don't see much change for 2014.

The only variation is whether or not Collins comes back, but I don't think Cook goes anywhere.

I mentioned before about him being under contract as well as the coaches liking him.

I'm guessing, but there are one of two options I actually see happening with the opening day o-line.

If they bring back Collins: (Collins, Whit, Cook, Zeitler, Smith)

If Collins isn't back: (Whit, Boling, Cook, Zeitler, Smith)

If it's the 2nd of the two, they will just have to hope and pray that the changes Hue makes will be the difference maker for Dalton.

If the O-line isn't strengthened, beginning with the changes you and many others are suggesting...this upcoming season will probably be not so good.

I look at it as they HAVE to make some changes if they are serious about sticking with Andy. Let him be the accurate passer who throws 20-25 times a game. Ok. How do you do that? Shift this team into a run the ball identity first and foremost.

If they go into 2014 with little changes on the offense, other than Hue being the OC...yikes.

[ArmyBengal]

Don't get me wrong Hokie, i'm all about makes those changes, but that comes with the understanding that expecting immediate results from a rookie if iffy.

If I am the one calling shots, I would make all attempts to bring back Collins and then draft a new Center that works best for what we do.

The new Center would be the wildcard in that scenario and would by no means equal better results than Cook just because.

My point is if the organization were to do exactly what I would like to see them do, it might not result in immediate improvement.

I don't care for Boling as anything more than depth, but if the team views spending on Collins as more than they are willing to invest in the o-line, he will walk and Boling will more than likely move back into the starting LG role with Whit at LT. Well, that's my thoughts on it at least.

I think alot just depends on how they view dealing with the other free agents they can now work deals with.

[walzav29]

My son, who is a senior at the University of Florida just sent me this email. Very interesting stuff.

Heard this stat about Montana on the radio today and looked it up. The 3 seasons from 1985-1987, the 49ers made the playoffs. Here are Joe's numbers in those playoff games and results. Keep in mind, he had won two Super Bowls by now I believe:

1985: 296 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 55 Cmp%, L 3-17 @NYG

1986: 98 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT, 53 Cmp%, L 3-49 @NYG

1987: 109 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 46 Cmp%, L 24-36 MIN

The greatest of all time by many people had three straight years of one and done, all without throwing a TD pass. So no QB, regardless of how great, is perfect in playoff games throwing the ball. Montana benefitted greatly from already winning Super Bowls, however. But QB's will have bad playoff games.

Also, take a look at Brady's numbers in his first 3 playoff games from the 2001 season when they won the Super Bowl:

312 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 61 Cmp% W 16-13 OAK

115 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT, 66 Cmp% W 24-17 @PITT

145 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT, 59 Cmp% W 20-17 STL

Now here are Andy's:

257 yards, 0 TD, 3 INT, 64 Cmp% L 10-31 @HOU

127 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 46 Cmp%, L 13-19 @HOU

334 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT, 56 Cmp%, L 10-27

The big differences? His team won in other ways besides having him throw it everywhere. Brady didn't go over 200 yards in the AFC Championship game or Super Bowl. But when he threw, he was effective. Also, he didn't turn the ball over. Only 1 INT in that postseason, while Andy has at least 1 in each of his games.

I'm not saying Andy is or will be the next Montana or Brady. It's just some perspective on the position, and also maybe rethinking how to win on offense.

Greg, you're my favorite. You are a reasonable glass half-full guy. Colin who has become Gods gift to the NFL had 2 int's and a fumble in the 4th quarter. Where is the golobal outrage that he is the worst starter in the NFL. I know. He has won a playoff game, but the goal is to win a SB. The fact is he could have won the SB but he overthrew Crabtree and then threw a pick in the end-zone this year. i'm just saying Andy is the unquestiond starter in 2014 and he should be.

[kingwilly]

My son, who is a senior at the University of Florida just sent me this email. Very interesting stuff.

Heard this stat about Montana on the radio today and looked it up. The 3 seasons from 1985-1987, the 49ers made the playoffs. Here are Joe's numbers in those playoff games and results. Keep in mind, he had won two Super Bowls by now I believe:

1985: 296 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 55 Cmp%, L 3-17 @NYG

1986: 98 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT, 53 Cmp%, L 3-49 @NYG

1987: 109 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 46 Cmp%, L 24-36 MIN

The greatest of all time by many people had three straight years of one and done, all without throwing a TD pass. So no QB, regardless of how great, is perfect in playoff games throwing the ball. Montana benefitted greatly from already winning Super Bowls, however. But QB's will have bad playoff games.

Also, take a look at Brady's numbers in his first 3 playoff games from the 2001 season when they won the Super Bowl:

312 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 61 Cmp% W 16-13 OAK

115 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT, 66 Cmp% W 24-17 @PITT

145 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT, 59 Cmp% W 20-17 STL

Now here are Andy's:

257 yards, 0 TD, 3 INT, 64 Cmp% L 10-31 @HOU

127 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 46 Cmp%, L 13-19 @HOU

334 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT, 56 Cmp%, L 10-27

The big differences? His team won in other ways besides having him throw it everywhere. Brady didn't go over 200 yards in the AFC Championship game or Super Bowl. But when he threw, he was effective. Also, he didn't turn the ball over. Only 1 INT in that postseason, while Andy has at least 1 in each of his games.

I'm not saying Andy is or will be the next Montana or Brady. It's just some perspective on the position, and also maybe rethinking how to win on offense.

Greg, you're my favorite. You are a reasonable glass half-full guy. Colin who has become Gods gift to the NFL had 2 int's and a fumble in the 4th quarter. Where is the golobal outrage that he is the worst starter in the NFL. I know. He has won a playoff game, but the goal is to win a SB. The fact is he could have won the SB but he overthrew Crabtree and then threw a pick in the end-zone this year. i'm just saying Andy is the unquestiond starter in 2014 and he should be.

It is uncomfortable reading folks cite Kaepernick's shortcomings in a SB and an NFC Championship game, as a corollary to defend Dalton, or rationalize that because Kaep struggled, and Dalton struggled (more, differently and with less overall success), then Dalton should be the starter once again. Yes, Dalton will start in 2014, and the alternatives are not very good, and for the most part he's earned it (though I subscribe to the 3 strikes your out adage).

This year, Kaepernick went to GB and Carolina and beat two very hot teams with great defenses, and *almost* won IN Seattle but for some bad clock management and poor playcalls. I say he beat them because it was his play that primarily won those games. It is not a comparative situation, really in any way.

Dalton, despite widely agreed upon view that he has excellent weapons, and despite setting Bengals records and progressing from year 1 to 2 to 3, does not have the arm, legs or overall ability of Kaepernick. It's as clear as black stripes on an orange helmet.

The reason there is no "outrage" re Kaepernick botching it up, is because of the success he's had, winning playoff games on the road (and at home), going to the SB, and his overall ability/ceiling.

I mean, seriously. Is there anyone, honestly, that would choose Dalton right now over Kaepernick, if that draft was done again? I wouldn't.

EDIT:

Just note, I will absolutely be cheering for and hoping Dalton "arrives" in 2014, and establishes the rapport with Hue and continues the progress, winning a playoff game (and maybe more).

[COB]

I almost can't believe what I'm reading. Comparing Dalton to Brady and Montana based on some cherry-picked stats? Guess what, I have eyes. Dalton is not in that class of quarterback, and no one who objectively watches him play would make that claim. I'm not buying this bullshit for a minute. And taking Dalton over Luck? Seriously? Call 32 GMs in this league, then call 32 head coaches in this league. Offer them either one, and it's Luck 64, Dalton 0. Kaepernick? I've watched him make throws Dalton can only dream of making. He's just a lot stronger and hold on to your hat because he's also more accurate. He throws it in a window. Dalton often throws it over the roof.

I love the Bengals just like you guys do, but take off the rose colored glasses. Marvin and co. flatly state that Dalton is our qb because there's no one else out there, not because they delusionally believe he's great or even close to great. Servicable. That's it, that's all.

[gregcook68]

I almost can't believe what I'm reading. Comparing Dalton to Brady and Montana based on some cherry-picked stats? Guess what, I have eyes. Dalton is not in that class of quarterback, and no one who objectively watches him play would make that claim. I'm not buying this bullshit for a minute. And taking Dalton over Luck? Seriously? Call 32 GMs in this league, then call 32 head coaches in this league. Offer them either one, and it's Luck 64, Dalton 0. Kaepernick? I've watched him make throws Dalton can only dream of making. He's just a lot stronger and hold on to your hat because he's also more accurate. He throws it in a window. Dalton often throws it over the roof.

I love the Bengals just like you guys do, but take off the rose colored glasses. Marvin and co. flatly state that Dalton is our qb because there's no one else out there, not because they delusionally believe he's great or even close to great. Servicable. That's it, that's all.

I'm not explaining the point of this thread anymore. Read the thread, the whole thread, and nothing but the thread. If you you've done that COB and STILL come away with the foolishness comprehension above, then your NFL coaching skills aren't quite what you think they are!

You are one of the few that got lost in some of the off topic replies.

I'm not going to play your silly game of wishing this that and the other, knowing that there isn't a person in here who has any say so in what the Bengals are going to do with their players, giving a rats behind if Dalton is better than so and so.

So and so isn't a Bengal. And ONLY if and when so and so becomes a Bengal will i give a rip about him!

Andy Dalton is the QB through 2014. I'm only concerned about him and how these new coaches can use the offense properly and get the best out of it!

Come on COB, you're better than this!!!!!

[ArmyBengal]

Just for the record COB, Dalton is still the more accurate of the two (61.9% vs. 58.4%) and that's with Dalton throwing 170 more passes.

That being said, i'm not saying Kap isn't the better of the two.

With all of the above mentioned, that wasn't anywhere near the intent of this thread.

The stats were just provided to give some thoughts to how Dalton could get better, not make a comparison to any other QB.

Yeah, I still take Luck any day of the week.

[gregcook68]

Just for the record COB, Dalton is still the more accurate of the two (61.9% vs. 58.4%) and that's with Dalton throwing 170 more passes.

That being said, i'm not saying Kap isn't the better of the two.

With all of the above mentioned, that wasn't anywhere near the intent of this thread.

The stats were just provided to give some thoughts to how Dalton could get better, not make a comparison to any other QB.

Yeah, I still take Luck any day of the week.

Jimmy Johnson said it best. Kap helps the team with his legs, but hurts them with his arm.

He threw two picks this year, the last one costing his team the game, and the overthrow he did last year in the SB, that could have won the championship, wasn't any different than the overthrow Dalton did in the 2012 playoff game with Green, that could have been the game winner.

In my opinion, I think it's a joke to try and compare a three year QB to 13 year QBs (Brady and Brees),a 15 year QB (Montana)and a 16 year QB (Manning).

After his start in San Diego, no one thought Brees would become the QB he has become.

Any supporters he had in San Diego were probably laughed at as well!

But then again, that wasn't the point of the thread like Army said!

[redsbengalsbucks]

Just for the record COB, Dalton is still the more accurate of the two (61.9% vs. 58.4%) and that's with Dalton throwing 170 more passes.

That being said, i'm not saying Kap isn't the better of the two.

With all of the above mentioned, that wasn't anywhere near the intent of this thread.

The stats were just provided to give some thoughts to how Dalton could get better, not make a comparison to any other QB.

Yeah, I still take Luck any day of the week.

Look at it this way, if the Bengals had a run game like the 49'ers do would Dalton not be a better QB than Kap? I think that is obviously yes. He is more accurate and can be trusted more than Kap to put a game on his throwing arm.

[cincyhokie]

Don't get me wrong Hokie, i'm all about makes those changes, but that comes with the understanding that expecting immediate results from a rookie if iffy.

If I am the one calling shots, I would make all attempts to bring back Collins and then draft a new Center that works best for what we do.

The new Center would be the wildcard in that scenario and would by no means equal better results than Cook just because.

My point is if the organization were to do exactly what I would like to see them do, it might not result in immediate improvement.

I don't care for Boling as anything more than depth, but if the team views spending on Collins as more than they are willing to invest in the o-line, he will walk and Boling will more than likely move back into the starting LG role with Whit at LT. Well, that's my thoughts on it at least.

I think alot just depends on how they view dealing with the other free agents they can now work deals with.

Alex Mack.

[walzav29]

Alright. So we all agree? Andy Dalton is the best QB in the NFL? (Take it Easy). The simple point of the thread I BELIEVE is just to say that Dalton has played well in the regular season which is very promising for a young player, and although he has sucked in the playoffs. Other players have as well, and have done things later in their career. The mystery behing curtain #3 is not always better.

[HoosierCat]

Dalton vs. Luck is a pointless "argument." There was never any opportunity for the Bengals to acquire Luck, so saying you would rather have luck is a bit like being at McDonald's and saying you'd rather have lobster.

As for Dalton vs. Kapernick, it's quite possible that if you asked 32 NFL GMs, the majority answer would be "none of the above." Dalton's pros/cons don't need further explication here. Meanwhile Kap's legs give him great versatility, but when it comes to throwing the ball he's nothing particularly special. And as we've seen with guys like Vick and RG3, QBs have a tough time making a living with their legs in this league.

[cincyhokie]

The comparison was hypothetical and used to point out stats vs. intangibles and skill sets.

Of course the Bengals couldn't have drafted Luck.

[COB]

Come on COB, you're better than this!!!!!

The premise in that statement is that I've done something wrong. I refute that as follows: You posted a bunch of stats comparing Dalton to other quarterbacks. I said I don't like Dalton vs those quarterbacks, then you say hey why are you comparing him to other quarterbacks, that's not the point of the thread! I think it was the point of the thread, and in spite of you saying you don't want to compare him to other quarterbacks, that's exactly what you did.

Is there anything about Dalton, other than his play on the field, that is generating your intense devotion to him? Because based on his play, I don't get it.

PS - At the start of this season, lots of folks in here said this season is on Dalton. They went out and got more weapons for him, this year he has to win a playoff game, no excuses. Even Dalton himself said this season was going to be on him, they have to advance in the playoffs. He failed. Now what are we getting? A bunch of excuses. He needs a better running game, a better line, AJ needs to act like he cares that the ball is headed his way, etc.

I guess we can just keep trying to build a juggernaut that on D can stop anyone, and on offense can run the ball at will, and when we throw Andy can just stand there untouched as long as he wants until he decides to throw it to the open guy. But guess what? Almost any NFL quarterback, starter or backup, can do that. The good ones can do something else. They can either run, or move in the pocket, or they have a great arm that can rifle one into a barely-there opening. Dalton has none of those things.

All Dalton needs to succeed is everything.

[gregcook68]

Come on COB, you're better than this!!!!!

The premise in that statement is that I've done something wrong. I refute that as follows: You posted a bunch of stats comparing Dalton to other quarterbacks. I said I don't like Dalton vs those quarterbacks, then you say hey why are you comparing him to other quarterbacks, that's not the point of the thread! I think it was the point of the thread, and in spite of you saying you don't want to compare him to other quarterbacks, that's exactly what you did.

Is there anything about Dalton, other than his play on the field, that is generating your intense devotion to him? Because based on his play, I don't get it.

PS - At the start of this season, lots of folks in here said this season is on Dalton. They went out and got more weapons for him, this year he has to win a playoff game, no excuses. Even Dalton himself said this season was going to be on him, they have to advance in the playoffs. He failed. Now what are we getting? A bunch of excuses. He needs a better running game, a better line, AJ needs to act like he cares that the ball is headed his way, etc.

I guess we can just keep trying to build a juggernaut that on D can stop anyone, and on offense can run the ball at will, and when we throw Andy can just stand there untouched as long as he wants until he decides to throw it to the open guy. But guess what? Almost any NFL quarterback, starter or backup, can do that. The good ones can do something else. They can either run, or move in the pocket, or they have a great arm that can rifle one into a barely-there opening. Dalton has none of those things.

All Dalton needs to succeed is everything.

Everyone else got the point of the thread that it was about a change in offensive strategy, and the hope that Jackson will do that!

Now if you didn't get that point COB, I have nothing left to say about the thread.

I never said this was the year and it's all on Dalton yadda yadda yadda.

YOU and those that agreed with you said that.

Well, unfortunately, you aren't coaching the Bengals or have any say so in what goes on and neither do I.

You can piss and moan and be negative that's your right! But I'm not playing along!

I'm not going to debate about this stuff because, to me, it's POINTLESS!!!

Yes, I know there are many in here who enjoy doing that and I'm not here to criticize those debates and so forth.

My only point of this post was you got caught up in replies TO the thread that were 'off topic'.

Since I was the OP, I'm telling YOU that you missed the boat on this thread here. If you read it again, I tried to counter act the off topic posts trying to get back to THE point I was trying to make.

Army gets it, Hoosier gets it, kingwilly gets it, you did not!

Maybe next time!

That's all!!!

[HoosierCat]

I suppose the reason that I'm not in the "It's all Andy's fault!" camp is because...it's not all Andy's fault. For those who consider my opinion biased, I present that of SI's Andy Benoit, who as far as I know is not a Bengals fan. After justly criticizing Dalton for his poor play, he notes he was not alone:

Dalton wasn’t the only Bengal who stumbled. Tight end Jermaine Gresham had a holding penalty and a few run-blocking gaffes; A.J. Green, who was taken away by dedicated double-teams for most of the game, failed to haul in a deep, beautifully thrown would-be TD in the second half; Tyler Eifert, battling a hamstring, played only three of 81 snaps, which eliminated Cincy’s multidimensional dual tight end concepts; Giovani Bernard dropped a few dumpoffs and lost a fumble at the goal-line in the first half when the Bengals were about to go up 14-7; and, worth stating again, the offensive line was dominated.

On the other side, the Bengals run defense was not as bad as the numbers indicate. Take away Ronnie Brown’s 58-yard touchdown in garbage time and the Chargers had only 138 yards on 39 carries (3.5 average). However, the Chargers were able to methodically sustain drives with their power zone running game, as defensive tackles Domata Peko and Brandon Thompson failed to take on double-teams with their usual aplomb. None of Cincinnati’s second-and third level defenders made the dynamic plays necessary to overcome the mediocrity in the trenches.

Over at FO, Ben Muth went into detail about just how poorly the oline played. This was a huge disappointment to him as he thought they had been excellent all season.

The other big issue for Cincinnati was their pass protection. There were different individual breakdowns throughout the game. Andre Smith would step too far inside on a 4I and get beat around the edge. Whitworth would set too deep and end up in Dalton’s lap by the time he was trying to throw. Bernard would miss a defensive back blitz or get beat by a linebacker he did see. It seemed like it would be a different guy each time, but the killer came in the third quarter when the right side of Cincinnati’s line completely forgot how to pick up blitzes and stunts for about five minutes of game time.

A great deal of this boils down to consistency issues. Yes, this team has talent, but getting everyone to play at a high level as often as possible has been a bridge too far for several years now. Muth provides an example while breaking down a running play:

Jermaine Gresham also does a nice job on the edge here locked up against the defensive end. Plays like this are what make watching Gresham so maddening at times. There are five-to-seven plays a game where he looks like an absolute stud in the trenches, but other than those handful of plays his blocking ranges from meh to a real problem. And the frustrating thing is that I don’t why. It doesn’t seem like an effort thing, or a specific technique thing -- though he does try to throw cut blocks at the worst possible time -- he just has a hard time stringing together good games of solid run blocking. Again, he has enough blocks like the one above that they can’t all be flukes, but he averages out to a sub-par run blocker.

I can only attribute this to coaching, though it may also be part of Bengals culture: the team has long babied offensive stars and put up with all manner of behavior on and off the field. Think of Dillon or Chad or how they went so far as carrying Jordan Palmer for years to keep Carson happy. I hope Hue can change that, or is allowed to change that, because I think the whole offense, from Dalton on down, needs a heavy dose of accountability. If, for example, Jermaine Gresham only has six or seven good snaps a game, then Jermain Gresham better find a way to increase that number or he's only going to GET six or seven snaps a game.

Willy has written about this issue before as well: guys fumbling and not getting benched, etc. Now, this can be taken too far, but right now it doesn't look like there is any danger that will happen in Cincy.

I guess the bottom line for me isn't that "Andy is fine and everyone around him needs to get better," it's that everyone, including Dalton, needs to up their game. I don't believe that Dalton is "holding the team back" because I don't see a team that is playing well enough all around to be held back. And I view the idea that it's all Dalton's fault with deep concern because I think it threatens to mask the all-around improvement that the Bengals need.

[gregcook68]

I suppose the reason that I'm not in the "It's all Andy's fault!" camp is because...it's not all Andy's fault. For those who consider my opinion biased, I present that of SI's Andy Benoit, who as far as I know is not a Bengals fan. After justly criticizing Dalton for his poor play, he notes he was not alone:

Dalton wasn’t the only Bengal who stumbled. Tight end Jermaine Gresham had a holding penalty and a few run-blocking gaffes; A.J. Green, who was taken away by dedicated double-teams for most of the game, failed to haul in a deep, beautifully thrown would-be TD in the second half; Tyler Eifert, battling a hamstring, played only three of 81 snaps, which eliminated Cincy’s multidimensional dual tight end concepts; Giovani Bernard dropped a few dumpoffs and lost a fumble at the goal-line in the first half when the Bengals were about to go up 14-7; and, worth stating again, the offensive line was dominated.

On the other side, the Bengals run defense was not as bad as the numbers indicate. Take away Ronnie Brown’s 58-yard touchdown in garbage time and the Chargers had only 138 yards on 39 carries (3.5 average). However, the Chargers were able to methodically sustain drives with their power zone running game, as defensive tackles Domata Peko and Brandon Thompson failed to take on double-teams with their usual aplomb. None of Cincinnati’s second-and third level defenders made the dynamic plays necessary to overcome the mediocrity in the trenches.

Over at FO, Ben Muth went into detail about just how poorly the oline played. This was a huge disappointment to him as he thought they had been excellent all season.

The other big issue for Cincinnati was their pass protection. There were different individual breakdowns throughout the game. Andre Smith would step too far inside on a 4I and get beat around the edge. Whitworth would set too deep and end up in Dalton’s lap by the time he was trying to throw. Bernard would miss a defensive back blitz or get beat by a linebacker he did see. It seemed like it would be a different guy each time, but the killer came in the third quarter when the right side of Cincinnati’s line completely forgot how to pick up blitzes and stunts for about five minutes of game time.

A great deal of this boils down to consistency issues. Yes, this team has talent, but getting everyone to play at a high level as often as possible has been a bridge too far for several years now. Muth provides an example while breaking down a running play:

Jermaine Gresham also does a nice job on the edge here locked up against the defensive end. Plays like this are what make watching Gresham so maddening at times. There are five-to-seven plays a game where he looks like an absolute stud in the trenches, but other than those handful of plays his blocking ranges from meh to a real problem. And the frustrating thing is that I don’t why. It doesn’t seem like an effort thing, or a specific technique thing -- though he does try to throw cut blocks at the worst possible time -- he just has a hard time stringing together good games of solid run blocking. Again, he has enough blocks like the one above that they can’t all be flukes, but he averages out to a sub-par run blocker.

I can only attribute this to coaching, though it may also be part of Bengals culture: the team has long babied offensive stars and put up with all manner of behavior on and off the field. Think of Dillon or Chad or how they went so far as carrying Jordan Palmer for years to keep Carson happy. I hope Hue can change that, or is allowed to change that, because I think the whole offense, from Dalton on down, needs a heavy dose of accountability. If, for example, Jermaine Gresham only has six or seven good snaps a game, then Jermain Gresham better find a way to increase that number or he's only going to GET six or seven snaps a game.

Willy has written about this issue before as well: guys fumbling and not getting benched, etc. Now, this can be taken too far, but right now it doesn't look like there is any danger that will happen in Cincy.

I guess the bottom line for me isn't that "Andy is fine and everyone around him needs to get better," it's that everyone, including Dalton, needs to up their game. I don't believe that Dalton is "holding the team back" because I don't see a team that is playing well enough all around to be held back. And I view the idea that it's all Dalton's fault with deep concern because I think it threatens to mask the all-around improvement that the Bengals need.

You summed up all this in an earlier post Cat, in very simple, but to the point terms!

For me, I have to approach the next season with the hand that is dealt. Since all I know, right now, for sure, is who the coaches will be, and the players that are still under contract. I don't know who will be acquired in FA signings, trades, the draft etc. until that plays out.

I'm looking at the missing pieces of the puzzle being what you mentioned above and in the whole point of this thread.

It appears that the coaches that have been picked up to fill the vacancies all seem to be pretty good choices.

Will Jackson be allowed to coach without interference? Time will tell. If he does, I think he can do a similar thing on offense that Zimmer was able to do on defense. Get the most out of the players with a combination of motivation and discipline when needed.

We know Guenther knows the defensive schemes of the last few years as he has played a part in some of the design.

Will he be able to get the same passion out of the defense that Zimmer did? From the comments I've seen Burfict make about Guenther, I think he can.

If all that falls into place, and they sign and draft the players needed, and they can keep key players off season ending injuries, I see them right in the mix.

For me, it doesn't get any more complicated or dissected than that. We will find out in the months to come.

[kingwilly]

Dave nails it, relative to the drop-off in so many areas during that playoff game. I agree it's not "all" on Andy for the loss. Rather, it is shared. I think one of the reasons we all felt like being gut punched after the game was simply so many otherwise solid areas choked. D-line, O-line, specific players noted in the SI article.... It was a really bad day to have a really huge bad day.

If any one of those units played up to the typical level, even Dalton, the Bengals win that game. Heck, if Gio just does not fumble, I think the Bengals win that game.

Ok. So here is what I think is the key yo the offense progressing.

1. Hue must attempt to balance the scheme better. Use the weapons better.

2. As a result, Dalton must have a slight offload of schematic pressure to "carry" the offense.

3. Thus, Dalton must be subject to a higher level of camp competition and accountability. End of the unquestioned, unchallenged status.

4. Green must also progress his game. Stats not the issue. Delivering in the big moments, when its on the line is key.

5. O-line must be settled by OTAs. Dealing with Collins, Whit, others to establish what they will go to war with must be done early. Don't want to see questions still once pre-season starts.

6. Gresham could be a surprise cut (just a gut feeling). His issues don't seem to be easing, and his chances to deliver have all but been duds. Now, before sayin' "Willy, what you smokin'?", have a look and tell me the Bengals are not better served to use his cap saving to keep MJ and/or Collins. http://www.overthecap.com/cap.php?Name=Jermaine%20Gresham%20&Position=TE&Team=Bengals. TE's like Donald Lee, Alex Smith and Bo Scaife are always there. Here's a list of vet TE FA's (http://overthecap.com/freeagents.php?Position=TE&Year=2014), take your pick.

[COB]

You can piss and moan and be negative that's your right! But I'm not playing along!

I am far from a negative person when it comes to the Bengals. Just because you post something in the first post of a thread doesn't mean I can't disagree with it. Do I really piss and moan? I don't think I do.

[HoosierCat]

I agree with will's 6-point plan, though on point 3 I am in no rush to bring in a challenger for the starting QB job. However, I do make it plain to Andy that any hopes of a big-bucks extension are on the line. I'm sure he knows that already but I would make it a point of emphasis.

[gregcook68]

You can piss and moan and be negative that's your right! But I'm not playing along!

I am far from a negative person when it comes to the Bengals. Just because you post something in the first post of a thread doesn't mean I can't disagree with it. Do I really piss and moan? I don't think I do.

COB you weren't disagreeing with the 'point' of the thread.

The point if the thread is that the offensive scheme needs to change for the Bengals. They need to establish the run game and have Dalton throwing the ball 20-30 times instead of 50+.

The reason the stats were used was to show that even someone like Montana can put up 3 consecutive dismal playoff stats, going one and done, if he doesn't have the proper offensive scheme.

The point of using Brady's stats was to also show the other side of that coin. WITH the proper scheme a QB doesn't need to have a QBR of 90+.

Now you can disagree with that and we will agree to disagree.

You disagreed with the thread, assuming the POINT of the thread was to compare Dalton to Montana and Brady, saying Dalton is as good as Montana was or Brady is.

You missed the point. That's all I am saying.

NOT that you are supposed to agree with the point that was made.

[HoosierCat]

The point if the thread is that the offensive scheme needs to change for the Bengals.

Well, that may have been the point of this thread, but now I feel we need to make an urgent change to a new point, namely: how can we help our UK-based Bengalszone brethren escape their doomed isle before the ghost ship full of diseased cannibal rats crashes onto their shore?

[kingwilly]

I agree with will's 6-point plan, though on point 3 I am in no rush to bring in a challenger for the starting QB job. However, I do make it plain to Andy that any hopes of a big-bucks extension are on the line. I'm sure he knows that already but I would make it a point of emphasis.

In reading it again, maybe I should re-calibrate that item.

3. Thus, Dalton must be subject to a higher some level of camp competition, and held to greater accountability in the form of being possibly benched when "Bad Andy" shows up. End of the unquestioned, unchallenged status. Having a considerably higher level back-up (than Josh) in the form of a vet FA or quality rookie, could serve this effort.

[kingwilly]

You can piss and moan and be negative that's your right! But I'm not playing along!

I am far from a negative person when it comes to the Bengals. Just because you post something in the first post of a thread doesn't mean I can't disagree with it. Do I really piss and moan? I don't think I do.

I can 100% guarantee you most certainly piss. As for the moaning, well, let's not even try to get that verified....<shudders>