Interesting QB Playoff Stats

[gregcook68]

My son, who is a senior at the University of Florida just sent me this email. Very interesting stuff.

Heard this stat about Montana on the radio today and looked it up. The 3 seasons from 1985-1987, the 49ers made the playoffs. Here are Joe's numbers in those playoff games and results. Keep in mind, he had won two Super Bowls by now I believe:

1985: 296 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 55 Cmp%, L 3-17 @NYG

1986: 98 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT, 53 Cmp%, L 3-49 @NYG

1987: 109 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 46 Cmp%, L 24-36 MIN

The greatest of all time by many people had three straight years of one and done, all without throwing a TD pass. So no QB, regardless of how great, is perfect in playoff games throwing the ball. Montana benefitted greatly from already winning Super Bowls, however. But QB's will have bad playoff games.

Also, take a look at Brady's numbers in his first 3 playoff games from the 2001 season when they won the Super Bowl:

312 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 61 Cmp% W 16-13 OAK

115 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT, 66 Cmp% W 24-17 @PITT

145 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT, 59 Cmp% W 20-17 STL

Now here are Andy's:

257 yards, 0 TD, 3 INT, 64 Cmp% L 10-31 @HOU

127 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT, 46 Cmp%, L 13-19 @HOU

334 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT, 56 Cmp%, L 10-27

The big differences? His team won in other ways besides having him throw it everywhere. Brady didn't go over 200 yards in the AFC Championship game or Super Bowl. But when he threw, he was effective. Also, he didn't turn the ball over. Only 1 INT in that postseason, while Andy has at least 1 in each of his games.

I'm not saying Andy is or will be the next Montana or Brady. It's just some perspective on the position, and also maybe rethinking how to win on offense.

[Sea Ray]

No matter how you slice it Andy's numbers are the worst of the bunch. He's also teetering on history. No QB has ever started his career 0-4 in playoff games. Those stats don't even mention fumbles. I hope he turns it around but I had that hope a year ago and was again disappointed

[gregcook68]

No matter how you slice it Andy's numbers are the worst of the bunch. He's also teetering on history. No QB has ever started his career 0-4 in playoff games. Those stats don't even mention fumbles. I hope he turns it around but I had that hope a year ago and was again disappointed

First off, the intent of the thread was NOT a pro-Andy Dalton thread, as if to say, "See, Andy isn't all 'THAT' bad!"

The point is what my son mentioned at the very end.

IF Hue Jackson sticks to his guns, it is obviously the key to victory!

Again, looking at the other QB comparisons, AND, assuming the RBs do not go on season ending IR, the offensive change Hue has in mind, seems to be the 'key' that will unlock this team!

And yes, we can have the negative attitude that he won't change anything and it will always be the same old Bungles yadda, yadda, yadda!

That's a personal choice each fan makes or doesn't make.

To justify the negativity, we use the excuse that we've been a fan for a long time and had to endure the terrible 90s yadda yadda yadda.

Well I was here when they came to town, and the changes that have been made in the last 3 years and ESPECIALLY the coaching changes so far for 2014, is the closest this team has been since Palmer went down.

I'll sit back and enjoy the ride either way! ;)/>

[ArmyBengal]

There are tons of stats about Dalton that can be brought up.

I love seeing how he has done things only the greats throughout NFL history have done. It makes you all warm and fuzzy.

However, the only stat fans "really" care about is his 0-3 record in the playoffs.

I know it pisses me off.

That being said, I still have faith that Dalton can get the Bengals into the post season again in 2014.

I will simply wait to see if the changes that Hue will implement will be enough to push them further than a one and done.

If they get to and win a playoff game in 2014, many will probably say Gruden was holding him back or Hue was the answer.

It could just be that Dalton is still developing.

Boy, it's easy to forget the 90's when your team has been to the playoffs three straight seasons.

I'm mean that in all seriousness and not being sarcastic at all.

[gregcook68]

There are tons of stats about Dalton that can be brought up.

I love seeing how he has done things only the greats throughout NFL history have done. It makes you all warm and fuzzy.

However, the only stat fans "really" care about is his 0-3 record in the playoffs.

I know it pisses me off.

That being said, I still have faith that Dalton can get the Bengals into the post season again in 2014.

I will simply wait to see if the changes that Hue will implement will be enough to push them further than a one and done.

If they get to and win a playoff game in 2014, many will probably say Gruden was holding him back or Hue was the answer.

It could just be that Dalton is still developing.

Boy, it's easy to forget the 90's when your team has been to the playoffs three straight seasons.

I'm mean that in all seriousness and not being sarcastic at all.

This is where we are different Army. I don't look back. It's kind of like the old, 'What are you doing for me today?' cliche, and I certainly don't need football stats to make me feel warm and fuzzy. Got a Lord, family, and ministry that allows me to keep my joy (warm and fuzzy) 24/7!

I'm not quite on the same page the media is, in that, there is only one winner every year and 31 losers. From their perspective Kaep and Harbaugh pissed away a playoff game just like Dalton and Lewis did! Doesn't matter WHEN they did it, because both teams are home watching the SB. I'll never get to that point of reference.

I'm rooting for the Bengals to win, doesn't matter to me how the stats play out after that happens.

I would guess that the Steelers weren't too concerned about Fat Ben's horrific stats after his first SB. The Steelers won and that's all that mattered.

But, we can agree to disagree and I know you are an upstanding guy and can agree to disagree without attacking! ;)/>/>/>

WHO DEY!!!

[ArmyBengal]

It's always good with me Greg. No concerns.

I simply think that while I can acknowledge and appreciate what Dalton has done statistically, he will be constantly critizied for his lack of post season results. If and when he wins a playoff game, that may fall off a bit. Marino never won a Super Bowl and had a losing playoff record, but is one of the best of all time as well. I don't think the criticism of Dalton is all fair, but I understand it at the same time.

The warm and fuzzy remark was in general terms not specific towards you.

[gregcook68]

It's always good with me Greg. No concerns.

I simply think that while I can acknowledge and appreciate what Dalton has done statistically, he will be constantly critizied for his lack of post season results. If and when he wins a playoff game, that may fall off a bit. Marino never won a Super Bowl and had a losing playoff record, but is one of the best of all time as well. I don't think the criticism of Dalton is all fair, but I understand it at the same time.

The warm and fuzzy remark was in general terms not specific towards you.

It's all good my Army buddy! BTW an old USAF vet here.

Consistency is the key. Never cared for his demeanor on the field but Marino was

consistent just never had the running game he needed.

However today's standards, because of today's media, have changed.

Most 9ers fans probably don't care what Kap did before Sunday they just see him as blowing the playoffs.

Just like Flacco and E. Manning this year.

[HoosierCat]

The big differences? His team won in other ways besides having him throw it everywhere.

This is the crux of the matter. The problem with Dalton's playoff flops is less about Andy's abilities and more about what he was asked to do. And that was to win the game all by himself.

Compare Dalton to his peers in the playoffs this year, Cam, Kap and Wilson. In six playoff games those three QBs have attempted a combined 152 passes. In his one game this postseason, Dalton threw 51 times.

There's a reason everyone is relieved that Gruden is gone.

[gregcook68]

The big differences? His team won in other ways besides having him throw it everywhere.

This is the crux of the matter. The problem with Dalton's playoff flops is less about Andy's abilities and more about what he was asked to do. And that was to win the game all by himself.

Compare Dalton to his peers in the playoffs this year, Cam, Kap and Wilson. In six playoff games those three QBs have attempted a combined 152 passes. In his one game this postseason, Dalton threw 51 times.

There's a reason everyone is relieved that Gruden is gone.

That, Mr.Cat, we DO agree on. That was the point of my son's email which became my thread!

[cincyhokie]

Dalton is certainly not as bad, as many make him out to be.

The stats are interesting. I'll admit. But that's all they are. Interesting stats.

This is where some people (nobody in this thread necessarily) can get carried away with massaging stats to suit their viewpoint. Also, the game has changed significantly since the mid-80's and even the early 2000's.

When you look at the QB himself, the body of work, you can see the real picture. Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning are in a class that Dalton will never be in. That's fine. He doesn't have to be.

The other thing about stats I hate, and this is a little off topic, is that averages do not reflect an accurate picture of the situation. Median numbers do a better job. If the Reds score 12 runs in the last game of a three game series, but get shutout the first 2, their scoring average is 4 runs per game. Averages and stats are just simply NOT a reliable gage for play on the field.

[kingwilly]

The big differences? His team won in other ways besides having him throw it everywhere.

This is the crux of the matter. The problem with Dalton's playoff flops is less about Andy's abilities and more about what he was asked to do. And that was to win the game all by himself.

Compare Dalton to his peers in the playoffs this year, Cam, Kap and Wilson. In six playoff games those three QBs have attempted a combined 152 passes. In his one game this postseason, Dalton threw 51 times.

There's a reason everyone is relieved that Gruden is gone.

Yep, this.

[HoosierCat]

While we're on the subject on interesting things, here's Muth's final look at the oline this year from the playoff game. tl;dr? They sucked against SD.

/>http://www.footballoutsiders.com/word-muth/2014/word-muth-seeing-cincy

[gregcook68]

Dalton is certainly not as bad, as many make him out to be.

The stats are interesting. I'll admit. But that's all they are. Interesting stats.

This is where some people (nobody in this thread necessarily) can get carried away with massaging stats to suit their viewpoint. Also, the game has changed significantly since the mid-80's and even the early 2000's.

When you look at the QB himself, the body of work, you can see the real picture. Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Peyton Manning are in a class that Dalton will never be in. That's fine. He doesn't have to be.

The other thing about stats I hate, and this is a little off topic, is that averages do not reflect an accurate picture of the situation. Median numbers do a better job. If the Reds score 12 runs in the last game of a three game series, but get shutout the first 2, their scoring average is 4 runs per game. Averages and stats are just simply NOT a reliable gage for play on the field.

First of you, not sure if you read through the entire thread, but the stats were there to show that QBs need a running game no matter how good they are. That's why Dan Marino never won a ring and had a losing record in the playoffs, despite being one of the greatest QBs to play the game.

Saying that Dalton will never be a Montana, Brady, or Manning is an opinion that can be verified one way or the other until Dalton's career plays out.

At this point in time,all you can do is compare his 3 years with other QBs first three years! Not rocket science.

Putting all that aside, the point of the original post was in the last sentence of the post.

The offense needs to change, which is exactly what Hue and his staff want to do. You have to have establish a running game. Look at the number of times the QBs have been throwing the ball in the playoffs, as opposed to running it.

[kingwilly]

The big differences? His team won in other ways besides having him throw it everywhere.

This is the crux of the matter. The problem with Dalton's playoff flops is less about Andy's abilities and more about what he was asked to do. And that was to win the game all by himself.

Compare Dalton to his peers in the playoffs this year, Cam, Kap and Wilson. In six playoff games those three QBs have attempted a combined 152 passes. In his one game this postseason, Dalton threw 51 times.

There's a reason everyone is relieved that Gruden is gone.

Yep, this.

[cincyhokie]

At this point in time,all you can do is compare his 3 years with other QBs first three years! Not rocket science.

Absolutely. You can't really know what he's going to do. That's true. However, stats aren't the best way to look at the QB current, or potential, success

Dalton and Luck have comparible stats in their first few years. Are you taking Luck or Dalton?

99 out of 100 are taking Luck. That's not to say Dalton isn't a decent NFL QB. It's more to say that stats are overrated.

If the Bengals don't look at this situation as objectively as possible, the outcome won't be good. I want Dalton to be better. He has this season to prove it and the Bengals have this season to make sure that he isn't being asked to be Brady, Manning, or Montana.

[Kazkal]

No matter how you slice it Andy's numbers are the worst of the bunch. He's also teetering on history. No QB has ever started his career 0-4 in playoff games. Those stats don't even mention fumbles. I hope he turns it around but I had that hope a year ago and was again disappointed

For one I consider Brees better.then brady and I would take daltons first three over brees...we don't know how good dalton will be but takes more then a qb to win playoff games ask matt ryan...I will support andy aslong as he is our guy we caj measure him against the greats when hes had a many years as.those guus

[ArmyBengal]

That's a good way of putting it Kaz. "I will support Andy as long as he's our guy".

I think that's where most fans are because lets face it, we don't have another choice in the matter.

However, as Hokie mentioned, if you give fans the choice of players and we throw his example of "Dalton or Luck ??" I think the answer is Luck as well.

It certainly would be for me. I like Andy a lot, but his super cool stats won't keep me from my thoughts.

Don't get me wrong, I hope 2014 is his year and shuts everyone the f*ck up. Don't we all ??

[redsbengalsbucks]

That's a good way of putting it Kaz. "I will support Andy as long as he's our guy".

I think that's where most fans are because lets face it, we don't have another choice in the matter.

However, as Hokie mentioned, if you give fans the choice of players and we throw his example of "Dalton or Luck ??" I think the answer is Luck as well.

It certainly would be for me. I like Andy a lot, but his super cool stats won't keep me from my thoughts.

Don't get me wrong, I hope 2014 is his year and shuts everyone the f*ck up. Don't we all ??

I don't think I would take Luck over Dalton. His stats where no better than Dalton's and he has a bad tendency to make mistakes at the wrong time. I wouldnt mind having either QB, but I think Dalton's smarts are better than Luck's talent potential.

[ArmyBengal]

That's a good way of putting it Kaz. "I will support Andy as long as he's our guy".

I think that's where most fans are because lets face it, we don't have another choice in the matter.

However, as Hokie mentioned, if you give fans the choice of players and we throw his example of "Dalton or Luck ??" I think the answer is Luck as well.

It certainly would be for me. I like Andy a lot, but his super cool stats won't keep me from my thoughts.

Don't get me wrong, I hope 2014 is his year and shuts everyone the f*ck up. Don't we all ??

I don't think I would take Luck over Dalton. His stats where no better than Dalton's and he has a bad tendency to make mistakes at the wrong time. I wouldnt mind having either QB, but I think Dalton's smarts are better than Luck's talent potential.

Agree to disagree brother !!!

[gregcook68]

As the OP, I don't give two hoots about any QB, right now, except Andy Dalton. If Andrew Luck becomes a Bengals QB, then it will be him I care about.

Once again, the point of the thread was NOT to compare stats and pump up Andy. The point was to say the offense needs to change and it would need to change despite WHO the QB is!!!

THAT was the point of the stats, to show that, without help, even the best of the best fail!

I know you guy like to shoot the breeze, comparing this, that, and the other, and I'm not criticizing that, because you've made it very clear that comparing other players and so forth is what the forums are for.

However, this thread was started as part of the idea of, "Hey maybe we are headed in the right direction with Jackson and his philosophy, approach, and intensity! The stats seem to support what he wants to do, and it may be the key to unlock this Bengals group!!"

No more, no less!

[COB]

As the OP, I don't give two hoots about any QB, right now, except Andy Dalton. If Andrew Luck becomes a Bengals QB, then it will be him I care about.

Once again, the point of the thread was NOT to compare stats and pump up Andy. The point was to say the offense needs to change and it would need to change despite WHO the QB is!!!

THAT was the point of the stats, to show that, without help, even the best of the best fail!

I know you guy like to shoot the breeze, comparing this, that, and the other, and I'm not criticizing that, because you've made it very clear that comparing other players and so forth is what the forums are for.

However, this thread was started as part of the idea of, "Hey maybe we are headed in the right direction with Jackson and his philosophy, approach, and intensity! The stats seem to support what he wants to do, and it may be the key to unlock this Bengals group!!"

No more, no less!

What?

[gregcook68]

As the OP, I don't give two hoots about any QB, right now, except Andy Dalton. If Andrew Luck becomes a Bengals QB, then it will be him I care about.

Once again, the point of the thread was NOT to compare stats and pump up Andy. The point was to say the offense needs to change and it would need to change despite WHO the QB is!!!

THAT was the point of the stats, to show that, without help, even the best of the best fail!

I know you guy like to shoot the breeze, comparing this, that, and the other, and I'm not criticizing that, because you've made it very clear that comparing other players and so forth is what the forums are for.

However, this thread was started as part of the idea of, "Hey maybe we are headed in the right direction with Jackson and his philosophy, approach, and intensity! The stats seem to support what he wants to do, and it may be the key to unlock this Bengals group!!"

No more, no less!

What?

Just follow the bouncing ball if need be COB! No Masters Degree required!

[ArmyBengal]

Greg, I get the original post and sometimes things get a little off track within the threads.

I agree the offense needs to change and think that has been a big part of the problem when thinking about Dalton.

Yes, everyone needs help, but I think he has the help and simply needs a better scheme. We will certainly find out in 2014.

Having an improved o-line won't hurt either.

[gregcook68]

Greg, I get the original post and sometimes things get a little off track within the threads.

I agree the offense needs to change and think that has been a big part of the problem when thinking about Dalton.

Yes, everyone needs help, but I think he has the help and simply needs a better scheme. We will certainly find out in 2014.

Having an improved o-line won't hurt either.

Once again, it appears, from my perspective, you are right on the money!

Example to confirm your analysis, Dan Marino had help, but the offensive 'scheme' (run game established) was never good enough to get him a ring! (8-10 playoff record in the NFL)

I know how threads can get 'off track', and that's not a problem whatsoever.

I just wanted to make sure that this wasn't perceived as another, "Poor, Poor, Andy" thread, as some of the responses alluded to.

The point is that even the best can look dismal without the help and scheme, and the best can also put up mediocre QB stats and still win SBs WITH the help, and proper schemes!

Andy is here to stay, at least for 2014, and wishing and hoping won't change that, HOWEVER, changing the offense, and, suring up the offensive line, like you said, is what needs to happen to give this group the best shot!

Bottom line: They still have to perform and carry out the schemes, and stay relatively healthy, and injuries, as we all know, can be a crap shoot!

[ArmyBengal]

I think Andy should be given the opportunity this season regardless. He's shown too much promise.

However, the opportunity will lessen (see end) if 2014 falls to crap.

I believe Hue will indeed make a difference in the offense that plays to what Andy should be expected to do.

He shouldn't be expected to throw the ball 51 damn times thinking that's the best approach.

I think the o-line should be reinforced, but I really don't see much change for 2014.

The only variation is whether or not Collins comes back, but I don't think Cook goes anywhere.

I mentioned before about him being under contract as well as the coaches liking him.

I'm guessing, but there are one of two options I actually see happening with the opening day o-line.

If they bring back Collins: (Collins, Whit, Cook, Zeitler, Smith)

If Collins isn't back: (Whit, Boling, Cook, Zeitler, Smith)

If it's the 2nd of the two, they will just have to hope and pray that the changes Hue makes will be the difference maker for Dalton.