After Thoughts:Chargers vs Bengals Playoff Thread

[ArmyBengal]

Does getting rid of Gruden shake things up a bit ??

To a degree, but when you have an OC that says the things Gruden has in regards to his playcalling, that's shouldn't be viewed negatively.

When you say that you press when you are behind and have your QB throw the ball 51 freakin' times, that's an issue.

This strikes me as a possible addition by subtraction situation.

Bring in a guy with OC experience and a solid knowledge of the QB position to help Dalton.

Couple that with a vet backup QB to aid the situation as well. Mentorship is a real positive.

If the thinking is there are mental aspects to address for Dalton, having that dude to talk things through would be helpful.

Sort of like how Palmer had Kitna to lean on. Yeah, I think that helped his situation greatly having Kitna.

[cincyhokie]

Does getting rid of Gruden shake things up a bit ??

To a degree, but when you have an OC that says the things Gruden has in regards to his playcalling, that's shouldn't be viewed negatively.

When you say that you press when you are behind and have your QB throw the ball 51 freakin' times, that's an issue.

This strikes me as a possible addition by subtraction situation.

Bring in a guy with OC experience and a solid knowledge of the QB position to help Dalton.

Couple that with a vet backup QB to aid the situation as well. Mentorship is a real positive.

If the thinking is there are mental aspects to address for Dalton, having that dude to talk things through would be helpful.

Sort of like how Palmer had Kitna to lean on. Yeah, I think that helped his situation greatly having Kitna.

Agreed.

Someone said it in here earlier to the effect of having an OC that matched Zimmer's attitude. Not in the way of his intensity necessarily, but in his preparation and planning. I caught his interview on Bengals Line with Lapham and McAlister on Monday. It actually was immediately following Gruden's when he admitted they should have run the ball more.

I am continued to be very impressed with Zimmer. Maybe, getting a new OC with a different philosophy is what the Bengals need to get over the hump. Hell, I don't know for sure. They do, though. At least someone does. Someone down there at PBS has some insight and answers. If it's within reason, they'd better be listening to it.

BTW, did anyone catch Mike Leake's assessment of the clubhouse chemistry and Dusty Baker? Sometimes it's just as simple as what we see IS what the players see too. They are grown adult professional athletes, yes. But they are also human beings like you and me. Let's not try and distance ourselves completely from what our own assessments are...even if it is from the couch.

[HoosierCat]

And still the question of how did this team manage to lose will go unanswered.

Oh hell, I can answer that. We put a young, inexperienced and banged-up offense out on the field and told them to throw the ball 50+ times. That's why we lost.

[cincyhokie]

Young and inexperienced, yet playing a team that had 39 of it's players playing their first playoff game ever?

Banged up from the last game? Is that why Kyle Cook looked like a turnstyle?

Why were they 7 point favorites, if they went 11-5 yet so inexperienced and banged up?

If they were "banged up" and I'm not saying they might not have been, why was someone like Kyle Cook on the field when Robinson ran the offense just fine the week before?

How were they so banged up that they ran the ball for 113 yards?

[skyline]

Young and inexperienced, yet playing a team that had 39 of it's players playing their first playoff game ever?

Banged up from the last game? Is that why Kyle Cook looked like a turnstyle?

Why were they 7 point favorites, if they went 11-5 yet so inexperienced and banged up?

If they were "banged up" and I'm not saying they might not have been, why was someone like Kyle Cook on the field when Robinson ran the offense just fine the week before?

How were they so banged up that they ran the ball for 113 yards?

If I understand Hoosier's post, he's laying the blame at Gruden's feet. The whole "asking them to throw 50+ times" part...

[ArmyBengal]

This team still is, in fact, a young team.

There were injuries and the playcalling sucked.

That being said, this was the Bengals game to win.

Playing at home against the team that presented the best matchup.

They did the same thing they did in the first game and thought it would work.

Gruden pressed after getting down and Dalton made poor decision in the process.

It just sucks.

[cincyhokie]

Yeah, I think if Gruden calls a different game, they probably win. I'm sure injuries had a bit to do with it. If anyone it was Cook who looked like dogs**t out there.

Marvin has to be the guy to hold his coaches accountable at some point. A game plan has to be decided upon and executed along with potential contingencies if things change. Panicking down 17-10 is not acceptable.

For the record, I do think that Marvin does a pretty good job, if not great, at getting his teams mentally prepared OVERALL. However, he needs to tweak some of his strategy when it comes to the bigger, brighter, national spotlight games. Because for whatever reason there's a bit of loser mentality that is sneaking in at the worst times.

Get them over the hump, Marvin. That hump is mental as much as it is physical.

[cincyhokie]

This team still is, in fact, a young team.

There were injuries and the playcalling sucked.

That being said, this was the Bengals game to win.

Playing at home against the team that presented the best matchup.

They did the same thing they did in the first game and thought it would work.

Gruden pressed after getting down and Dalton made poor decision in the process.

It just sucks.

Agreed. Except for the young, inexperienced part. This team runs circles around SD in the playoff experience department. I call bulls**t excuses there.

I want to know why this team's offense falls off the map in the playoffs. That HAS to be addressed.

[HoosierCat]

Agreed. Except for the young, inexperienced part. This team runs circles around SD in the playoff experience department. I call bulls**t excuses there.

Who said anything about playoff experience? Oh, right, you. Well, if you want to call BS on your own points, be my guest.

This is a young and inexperienced offense that has been in a constant state of churn for three years. Put it in a playoff game and tell it to duplicate the Greatest Show on Turf and you get what we saw Sunday.

Notably, the inexperienced Chargers didn't do that. They ran the ball, played defense and generally kept things basic...and won.

Football: it's not rocket science.

[kingwilly]

No, that's not what I said.

And still the question of how did this team manage to lose will go unanswered. If it does, we'll continue to spin our wheels in the same spot.

Replacing some of the coaching staff is blowing things up? Looking at the offensive philosophy and game planning is blowing things up?

Maybe I'm not reading what you wrote clearly.

Man, it's kind of weird, but expected, how much get's lost in written communication. Haha! That's nothing at all what I wrote. At all.

Sorry, thats on me. I didn't word my "narratives" very well. After reading what I wrote and what I meant, I think we agree more than how I wrote it up.

[ArmyBengal]

This team still is, in fact, a young team.

There were injuries and the playcalling sucked.

That being said, this was the Bengals game to win.

Playing at home against the team that presented the best matchup.

They did the same thing they did in the first game and thought it would work.

Gruden pressed after getting down and Dalton made poor decision in the process.

It just sucks.

Agreed. Except for the young, inexperienced part. This team runs circles around SD in the playoff experience department. I call bulls**t excuses there.

I want to know why this team's offense falls off the map in the playoffs. That HAS to be addressed.

I didn't say they didn't have playoff experience or insinuate they were inexperienced at all.

I simply am drawing a point to them being a young team and the issues that come with that youth.

Why did the offense fall off the map this year ?? I'm pointing my finger at Gruden for that and the poor decisions on Dalton.

There were other aspects that can't be ignored as well. Poor pass blocking, more dropped passes, etc.

[kingwilly]

This team still is, in fact, a young team.

There were injuries and the playcalling sucked.

That being said, this was the Bengals game to win.

Playing at home against the team that presented the best matchup.

They did the same thing they did in the first game and thought it would work.

Gruden pressed after getting down and Dalton made poor decision in the process.

It just sucks.

Agreed. Except for the young, inexperienced part. This team runs circles around SD in the playoff experience department. I call bulls**t excuses there.

I want to know why this team's offense falls off the map in the playoffs. That HAS to be addressed.

I didn't say they didn't have playoff experience or insinuate they were inexperienced at all.

I simply am drawing a point to them being a young team and the issues that come with that youth.

Why did the offense fall off the map this year ?? I'm pointing my finger at Gruden for that and the poor decisions on Dalton.

There were other aspects that can't be ignored as well. Poor pass blocking, more dropped passes, etc.

I agree Army.

The playcalls were pretty bad, and the execution of those iffy plays were mostly poor, from Dalton to Green to Gio. Really, the only players who shined at all was Marvin Jones and Gresham (and even Gresh had a dumb penalty, again)

SD players said they got the same plays they knew from previous game, so that implies Gruden game planned/called nothing new for the game. I don't think they could have been so arrogant as to think since they won in SD, they'd just roll out the same stuff. That's lazy and weak.

It should be obvious to anyone when Dalton struggles that hitting the run game in a very heavy way has to occur. They have the line and the backs to make that work.

It should also be obvious to anyone that when Dalton can't handle the blitz, call plays that neutralize it, slants, WR screens, outlets to Gio or Hawk. Even roll outs, giving Andy some movement so he doesn't trap himself inside, and then get all panicky.

How Gruden and the eyes upstairs, Zampese etc, did not or could not adjust is nuts.

[cincyhokie]

Agreed. Except for the young, inexperienced part. This team runs circles around SD in the playoff experience department. I call bulls**t excuses there.

Who said anything about playoff experience? Oh, right, you. Well, if you want to call BS on your own points, be my guest.

This is a young and inexperienced offense that has been in a constant state of churn for three years. Put it in a playoff game and tell it to duplicate the Greatest Show on Turf and you get what we saw Sunday.

Notably, the inexperienced Chargers didn't do that. They ran the ball, played defense and generally kept things basic...and won.

Football: it's not rocket science.

Well, it is what it is. I don't think that the youth had any part of it. That's my opinion. The first 2 years, ok. This year, not so much.

Accountability for the gameplanning, execution of plan, preparation, etc in ALL 3 playoff games falls on Gruden. It also falls on Marvin for not making sure Gruden doesn't jack it up for 3 years in a row.

Excuses are ok when dealt with using honest objectivity and a decided plan of action. Excuses are awesomely lame when used over and over again comparing with other teams who work around said excuses. Get it right, Marvin. Plain and simple. If he can't, then I question who wears the pants in the family there at PBS. Is it Marvin or those around him with bigger egos, i.e. Gruden?

As one GM stated, "Marvin is the 4th best coach on that team."

[cincyhokie]

This team still is, in fact, a young team.

There were injuries and the playcalling sucked.

That being said, this was the Bengals game to win.

Playing at home against the team that presented the best matchup.

They did the same thing they did in the first game and thought it would work.

Gruden pressed after getting down and Dalton made poor decision in the process.

It just sucks.

Agreed. Except for the young, inexperienced part. This team runs circles around SD in the playoff experience department. I call bulls**t excuses there.

I want to know why this team's offense falls off the map in the playoffs. That HAS to be addressed.

I didn't say they didn't have playoff experience or insinuate they were inexperienced at all.

I simply am drawing a point to them being a young team and the issues that come with that youth.

Why did the offense fall off the map this year ?? I'm pointing my finger at Gruden for that and the poor decisions on Dalton.

There were other aspects that can't be ignored as well. Poor pass blocking, more dropped passes, etc.

Agreed. Again, though, I just don't buy the youth card.

[cincyhokie]

***damnit, Joe Reedy's on with Mo Egger right now, agreeing with me...and all of us for the most part. I hate Joe Reedy.

[HoosierCat]

The trouble is that they didn't stop churning personnel on offense two years ago. Consider: you start with Andy Dalton, a third-year QB starting his 51st game. That sound like a lot until you realize it's only about a third of his opposite number, Rivers. His three most experienced weapons are Jermaine Gresham, an inconsistent TE; BJGE, an average back; and AJ Green, who is out there giving a full 80 percent every snap.

That's your core, after three years: a short yardage back, a borderline first round bust TE and an extremely physically gifted but under motivated no. 1wideout. After that you got two WRs, Sanu and Jones, with respectively 17 and 8 starts, and two rookies in Gio and Eifert. Finally, you have a game plan by B. Bratkowski.

In hindsight, what happens is perfectly predictable. Your inconsistent vet TE gets a TD here, a dumb penalty there. Your average back actually runs pretty well, but the game plan dictates pass. Your 80 percent receiver drops a key pass. The rookie RB fumbles five yards from the goal line; the rookie TE barely gets on the field. And finally your third year QB, trying to make something happen, turns the ball over multiple times.

Yes, I agree, getting a better OC is job 1. But the players also need time. Gio will get better. Eifert will get better. Sanu and Jones are amassing experience and reps with Dalton. And for the first time it looks like there won't be major personnel churn in the offseason, so for the first time ever in the Dalton era we will have offensive continuity from one season to the next. I believe that will pay dividends next season.

[gregcook68]

This team still is, in fact, a young team.

There were injuries and the playcalling sucked.

That being said, this was the Bengals game to win.

Playing at home against the team that presented the best matchup.

They did the same thing they did in the first game and thought it would work.

Gruden pressed after getting down and Dalton made poor decision in the process.

It just sucks.

Agreed. Except for the young, inexperienced part. This team runs circles around SD in the playoff experience department. I call bulls**t excuses there.

I want to know why this team's offense falls off the map in the playoffs. That HAS to be addressed.

I didn't say they didn't have playoff experience or insinuate they were inexperienced at all.

I simply am drawing a point to them being a young team and the issues that come with that youth.

Why did the offense fall off the map this year ?? I'm pointing my finger at Gruden for that and the poor decisions on Dalton.

There were other aspects that can't be ignored as well. Poor pass blocking, more dropped passes, etc.

Other than what they say interviews do we really know for sure what kind of real time game semantics go on between Gruden and Dalton or are we speculating?

I have no clue what goes on during a game I'm just asking.

I'm still trying to follow the intentions here.

I understand we are giving opinions of what we think should be done and all, but debating back and forth on issues we know won't happen I just don't get.

We know Marvin and Andy are back and mgt feels like they have the right personnel in place and moving in the right direction. We know Gruden and Zimmer are interviewing for HC jobs.

What's the point of debating, not discussing, debating any other scenario?

Yes, some believe that this is the wrong approach and have stated so.

Debating it is not going to change it.

What did everyone do during the 90s? Or did everyone just become a Monday morning fan

checking sports section to see score results like me?

[kingwilly]

Other than what they say interviews do we really know for sure what kind of real time game semantics go on between Gruden and Dalton or are we speculating?

I have no clue what goes on during a game I'm just asking.

I'm still trying to follow the intentions here.

I understand we are giving opinions of what we think should be done and all, but debating back and forth on issues we know won't happen I just don't get.

We know Marvin and Andy are back and mgt feels like they have the right personnel in place and moving in the right direction. We know Gruden and Zimmer are interviewing for HC jobs.

What's the point of debating, not discussing, debating any other scenario?

Yes, some believe that this is the wrong approach and have stated so.

Debating it is not going to change it.

What did everyone do during the 90s? Or did everyone just become a Monday morning fan

checking sports section to see score results like me?

looking at the above bolded items, I think you don't quite understand the purpose and function of forums like this.

I mean, seriously. No one is making you read this stuff. And you are not going to convince folks to cease debate simply because its not going to change anything. In fact, there is not one single thing ever posted here that has ever materially effected the Bengals team in any way.

and we all get this. and yet we keep posting.

and so far, you keep asking why we do it.

from here out, I'm not going to pick on you for this. I like much of what you post, even agree with things you've brought up but the stuff above just tells me you are not fully tuned into why this forum even exits. its so we can bitch, debate things that won't change, observe and discuss. Celebrate and whine. all of it. and none of it means a damn thing to the Bengals team. but it serves a great purpose for almost all of us, as real fans who've stuck with this god forsaken team since most of us were little kids. its part and parcel to our fan experience.

[ArmyBengal]

Well, I go by what I see in the games for myself and what I hear coming out of press conferences and read in articles.

I tend to believe a coach when they say when they got down in the 3rd quarter that he started pressing a bit in his playcalling.

Why ?? Because you could see it happening and something I think led to the poor 2nd half by Dalton.

Hell, I told my family the same thing. You could see it in the players faces as well.

That sh*tty look on Dalton's face said it all. They weren't going to win that game.

If there is another scenario that fits what I saw in the game Sunday, I would be happy to discuss, debate, or whatever.

The thoughts of poor pass blocking, dropped passes, bad penalties, and a general apathy from the team have also been discussed.

Call it injuries, call it youth (sorry Hokie), or whatever you like. This TEAM failed at the worst possible moment when they shouldn't have.

I think someone needs to be held accountable as well.

Yeah Gruden, i'm looking at your stupid face.

[HoosierCat]

why this forum even exits. its so we can bitch, debate things that won't change, observe and discuss. Celebrate and whine.

No, no, no. It exists so I can be right and everyone else can be wrong.

[COB]

Other than what they say interviews do we really know for sure what kind of real time game semantics go on between Gruden and Dalton or are we speculating?

I have no clue what goes on during a game I'm just asking.

I'm still trying to follow the intentions here.

I understand we are giving opinions of what we think should be done and all, but debating back and forth on issues we know won't happen I just don't get.

Has anyone considered the possibility that this theme will begin to be repeated in every thread, and that what we are witnessing is the beginning of a brilliantly conceived and executed trolling scheme? Existentialism set forth in a tangible, concrete form on a sports message board. Beautiful, GregCook, I salute you.

[HoosierCat]

Other than what they say interviews do we really know for sure what kind of real time game semantics go on between Gruden and Dalton or are we speculating?

I have no clue what goes on during a game I'm just asking.

I'm still trying to follow the intentions here.

I understand we are giving opinions of what we think should be done and all, but debating back and forth on issues we know won't happen I just don't get.

Has anyone considered the possibility that this theme will begin to be repeated in every thread, and that what we are witnessing is the beginning of a brilliantly conceived and executed trolling scheme? Existentialism set forth in a tangible, concrete form on a sports message board. Beautiful, GregCook, I salute you.

Does that mean I'm going to turn into a giant cockroach? Because if so I need to put in for vacation time at work.

[COB]

Other than what they say interviews do we really know for sure what kind of real time game semantics go on between Gruden and Dalton or are we speculating?

I have no clue what goes on during a game I'm just asking.

I'm still trying to follow the intentions here.

I understand we are giving opinions of what we think should be done and all, but debating back and forth on issues we know won't happen I just don't get.

Has anyone considered the possibility that this theme will begin to be repeated in every thread, and that what we are witnessing is the beginning of a brilliantly conceived and executed trolling scheme? Existentialism set forth in a tangible, concrete form on a sports message board. Beautiful, GregCook, I salute you.

Does that mean I'm going to turn into a giant cockroach? Because if so I need to put in for vacation time at work.

Ask GregCook, he's the one orchestrating this Kafkaesque nightmare, not me.

[gregcook68]

I guess I'm just too casual of a fan. Yes, there's no one that's been a fan any longer than I have, but I just ventured into the forums, at the end of 2012, to fill down time in my semi-retired mode now.

I'm a musician and have been in guitar forums for about 6 years and just figured that these forums would be similar to the guitar ones.

Maybe I'm just too blunt because I've seen others post, now and then, folk casually trying to put things into perspective when the debates get far off course, some even serious ones that Hoosier alluded to with the daughter passing away, so I didn't think it was a big deal, trying to keep it real, but, it is what it is.

Yes, there are some debates that happen in the guitar forums, Taylor guys debating Martin guys, but far and few between.

Mostly just keeping guys informed, sharing experiences, and ideas.

I like the Bengals, but I'm just not as deep and passionate about all the what ifs, should haves, could haves, and maybes, etc.

Maybe I should just stick to the guitar forums, because I can keep connected through the Bengals website and NFL push notifications, to satisfy my casual needs! ;)/

[HoosierCat]

It's all copacetic Greg. As a fan base a Bengals fans have spent two decades complaining about things that were never going to change (see Brown, Mike). So shouting at the clouds is sort of ingrained.

It will be interesting to see how many "casual" fans are left come next fall. If your former board is any indication Bengals fandom is going to eat itself alive over the next eight months.