Bengals looking at a OLT early

[skyline]

If we DO lose him, I don't think it will be the end of the world. Not great, but he is far more replaceable than Geno or Green will be and they're both due for mega deals next year.

If we need to save some money on Andre and re-build through the draft/free agency, then so be it. I won't like it, but I'll understand it.

[ArmyBengal]

Understand it ?? Sure

Like it ?? Sh*t no !!!

I just think it's the wrong way to go about it.

His draft class is the perfect reason why.

There were at least 3 OT's that almost EVERYONE thought we needed to either trade up for or take with that pick.

There isn't one of them that has met the expectations of their draft position except Big Dre.

You can CERTAINLY make the case that Big Dre was the best of that class.

With that thought in mind, I don't think it's just so easy to say "replace him".

It's a big risk to take considering our o-line and maintaining consistency.

[HoosierCat]

Given the amount of cap space they have, it would be extremely frustrating to lose Moobs. Yet again, the Bengals would be in their familiar role as a farm team for the rest of the NFL. Draft a guy, coach him up, then let the talent walk. And then be forced to use a draft pick replacing him, leaving existing holes like LB and safety to go unfilled...again. It seems like this movie plays in Cincy every March.

I understand they have to sign Atkins, Green and Dalton, and they won't come cheap. OTOH how much more must be sacrificed to the Cruel God of 2014? J-Joe, Rucker, Fanene and now Moobs? Add another first round pick to the first, second and third rounders they have already used to replace guys they feared to pay lest they be unable to extend their stars? At some point they have to stop the bleeding.

[ArmyBengal]

I know what you mean.

It seems like every year I am saying that you can't be a team that has a philosophy of "build through the draft" and then let those players walk away after watching them develop. I f*cking hate seeing that happen.

Other teams find a way to hold onto their drafted players and get rid of the old guys taking up cap space.

At some point in time guys like Clements, Geathers, or whatever other old dude on the roster need to be sent on their way.

[skyline]

Given the amount of cap space they have, it would be extremely frustrating to lose Moobs. Yet again, the Bengals would be in their familiar role as a farm team for the rest of the NFL. Draft a guy, coach him up, then let the talent walk. And then be forced to use a draft pick replacing him, leaving existing holes like LB and safety to go unfilled...again. It seems like this movie plays in Cincy every March.

I understand they have to sign Atkins, Green and Dalton, and they won't come cheap. OTOH how much more must be sacrificed to the Cruel God of 2014? J-Joe, Rucker, Fanene and now Moobs? Add another first round pick to the first, second and third rounders they have already used to replace guys they feared to pay lest they be unable to extend their stars? At some point they have to stop the bleeding.

Please don't tell me you're upset that they didn't overpay guys like Rucker and Fanene. How much have we missed their presence? So much so that we set a team record for sacks last year and had the 7th ranked D in the league? Yeah, it sucked to lose Joseph, but it didn't kill us. They ponied up and paid Reggie Nelson what he deserved. I have no doubt that they'll offer Andre a fair contract (a.k.a. slightly more than he's probably worth) and it'll be up to Andre to take it or leave it. And, while we all hope he stays, the truth is that we're not going to be a sunk ship if he doesn't.

I'm just amazed at how much doom and gloom resurfaces every offseason when the team's recent track record appears to be pretty solid. Good teams lose good players all the time. It's part of life in the NFL.

[skyline]

Other teams find a way to hold onto their drafted players and get rid of the old guys taking up cap space.

Are you so sure?

The only other team I follow closely is the Titans. You would regularly see them draft people, get 3-4 good years out of them, and then let them walk to be replaced by someone younger and cheaper. Jevon Kearse, Antwon Odom, etc., etc... Yes, I know the Titans are a pretty bad team right now, but this is the same strategy they used when they went to the Super Bowl and had regular success. Their current struggles are due to poor drafting.

My point is that I think ALL teams let guys like this walk all the time, but most of us don't recognize the names when they do. If you weren't a Bengals fan would you have any idea who Rucker and Fanene are? I doubt it.

Now, Jonathan Joseph? Sure. Andre Smith? Definitely.

But the Bengals are hardly alone in this. The Texans lost Mario Wiliams in a bidding derby after his rookie deal and seemed to be just fine. The Chargers got outbid for Michael Turner after developing him on their roster for a few seasons. So on and so forth. It's just the nature of the beast.

Since we have a hypersensitive magnifying glass on the Bengals, though, every move gets blown way out of proportion.

[TJJackson]

Some mocks now surfacing with us taking an OT

Example: http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/3/4/4058656/2013-nfl-mock-draft-geno-smith-jamie-collins

In that mock, I'd see it as quite reasonable to move up a few spots to land either OG Cooper (move up to 19) (Cooper has both center and tackle experience) or OLT Johnson (move up to 15)

Note that in this mock, the Fisher kid from CM did indeed fall to 11. Its possible.

[HoosierCat]

Please don't tell me you're upset that they didn't overpay guys like Rucker and Fanene. How much have we missed their presence? So much so that we set a team record for sacks last year and had the 7th ranked D in the league? Yeah, it sucked to lose Joseph, but it didn't kill us. They ponied up and paid Reggie Nelson what he deserved. I have no doubt that they'll offer Andre a fair contract (a.k.a. slightly more than he's probably worth) and it'll be up to Andre to take it or leave it. And, while we all hope he stays, the truth is that we're not going to be a sunk ship if he doesn't.

I'm just amazed at how much doom and gloom resurfaces every offseason when the team's recent track record appears to be pretty solid. Good teams lose good players all the time. It's part of life in the NFL.

That's OK, I'm always amazed at how much goes down the memory hole. For example, everyone seems to have forgotten that the D and particularly the front seven stunk the first part of last season. Remember all those posts praying that Fat Pat would get back quick? It wasn't until they re-signed Crocker and Sims returned that the D really started to tick back up. Prior to that we were all wondering WTF happened to it and talking about how we didn't have to worry about losing Zimmer to a HC job in 2013!

I guess you could make a case for the Bengals at least realizing their mistakes, but having to rely on the return of an injured guy they barely made an effort to re-sign (Sims) and an old washed-up dude they dumped (Crocker) while their second- and third-round picks collected splinters on the bench is something I have a tough time calling solid.

Yes, teams lose players all the time. But this isn't all the time, this is right here, right now and the Bengals have more than ample resources to get a deal done. And I think it would far more valuable to use that 21st pick at RB, LB, S or even WR -- both positions of need for the team and positions where there will be solid value available -- than on a replacement RT.

[skyline]

Please don't tell me you're upset that they didn't overpay guys like Rucker and Fanene. How much have we missed their presence? So much so that we set a team record for sacks last year and had the 7th ranked D in the league? Yeah, it sucked to lose Joseph, but it didn't kill us. They ponied up and paid Reggie Nelson what he deserved. I have no doubt that they'll offer Andre a fair contract (a.k.a. slightly more than he's probably worth) and it'll be up to Andre to take it or leave it. And, while we all hope he stays, the truth is that we're not going to be a sunk ship if he doesn't.

I'm just amazed at how much doom and gloom resurfaces every offseason when the team's recent track record appears to be pretty solid. Good teams lose good players all the time. It's part of life in the NFL.

That's OK, I'm always amazed at how much goes down the memory hole. For example, everyone seems to have forgotten that the D and particularly the front seven stunk the first part of last season. Remember all those posts praying that Fat Pat would get back quick? It wasn't until they re-signed Crocker and Sims returned that the D really started to tick back up. Prior to that we were all wondering WTF happened to it and talking about how we didn't have to worry about losing Zimmer to a HC job in 2013!

I guess you could make a case for the Bengals at least realizing their mistakes, but having to rely on the return of an injured guy they barely made an effort to re-sign (Sims) and an old washed-up dude they dumped (Crocker) while their second- and third-round picks collected splinters on the bench is something I have a tough time calling solid.

Yes, teams lose players all the time. But this isn't all the time, this is right here, right now and the Bengals have more than ample resources to get a deal done. And I think it would far more valuable to use that 21st pick at RB, LB, S or even WR -- both positions of need for the team and positions where there will be solid value available -- than on a replacement RT.

So, what you're saying is...our defense ended up being fine and was fixable without having to make any mega free-agency signings? And, we have two talented guys on the bench ready to step in and fill any void that happens to be left? And this has to do with the inability of the Bengals to keep their good players, because...? I'm missing your point here unless you're wanting to talk about how our defense is in pretty good shape and how it has a lot of depth.

Yes, this is right here and right now. And other teams are losing players right here and right now. What's your point? Whether it's "right now" or "all the time", it amounts to the same thing, right? And yes, I get your point. The Bengals have the resources to get the deal done, and like I said earlier, I have every belief that they'll offer Andre a fair contract. When, in the past few seasons, have they NOT done this? But, if the rest of the NFL gets stupid and wants to pay Andre more than he's worth, then I'm optimistic that the Bengals can absorb the loss and keep on ticking. It won't be easy, but it will be doable.

As for the 21st pick, even if they DO re-sign Andre, who's to say they won't still go ahead and use that pick on an offensive lineman? If that's the best player available at a "premium" position, then I have no doubt that they'll pull the trigger. Maybe that strategy is a mistake, but that's a different discussion entirely.

[kingwilly]

On the topic of RT, I would be OK with them not overpaying for Big Andre. Someone may make a big offer but with Collins (capable backup) and 3 pick in the first 54, i have to believe they could survive/thrive should moobs leave.

Philosophically, the Bengals have won and lost the FA battle, much like the rest of the NFL. Everyone has seen how Pacma and Newmann has turned it around, as well as recalls the Antonio Bryant, Coles and Michale Westbrook fiascos??? We've seen guys leave and prosper (JJoe, Justin Smith) and guys who've gone into oblivion (Brian Simmons, Stacey Andrews)...

I dont think there is "one" way to nail it. I guess it comes down to risk mitigation. Managing the risks that impede success.

[HoosierCat]

So, what you're saying is...our defense ended up being fine and was fixable without having to make any mega free-agency signings? And, we have two talented guys on the bench ready to step in and fill any void that happens to be left? And this has to do with the inability of the Bengals to keep their good players, because...? I'm missing your point here unless you're wanting to talk about how our defense is in pretty good shape and how it has a lot of depth.

No, I'm saying our D went down the tubes early and only bounced back when the Bengals managed to undo some errors (Sims, Crocker). But right now it doesn't look like Sims will be back and there's a limit to how many times old man Chris can return to save the day. As for Still and Thompson, we have no clue whether they're talented or not, as they spent virtually all the year on their butts. Regarding depth, have you looked at LB lately? Or for that matter DB? This defense is being held together with spit and bailing wire, or have all those comments about counting on Zimmer to work miracles with scraps gone down the memory hole as well?

Yes, this is right here and right now. And other teams are losing players right here and right now. What's your point? Whether it's "right now" or "all the time", it amounts to the same thing, right? And yes, I get your point. The Bengals have the resources to get the deal done, and like I said earlier, I have every belief that they'll offer Andre a fair contract. When, in the past few seasons, have they NOT done this? But, if the rest of the NFL gets stupid and wants to pay Andre more than he's worth, then I'm optimistic that the Bengals can absorb the loss and keep on ticking. It won't be easy, but it will be doable.

But why do it at all? As you admit, they have the resources. And by all accounts what Moobs is asking for isn't much of a raise over what he's been making. So there's no real question about overpaying. They'll pay premium, but that's the nature of free agency. Like you, I hope they get a deal done and will give them props if they do. But I wonder if the die isn't already cast -- that they uncommitted to Smith when they declined his option and that they have no real intention of re-signing him. If that turns out to be the case I'm going to be pissed, because I think the team has way too many needs to be creating extra holes heading into the draft.

[skyline]

No, I'm saying our D went down the tubes early and only bounced back when the Bengals managed to undo some errors (Sims, Crocker). But right now it doesn't look like Sims will be back and there's a limit to how many times old man Chris can return to save the day. As for Still and Thompson, we have no clue whether they're talented or not, as they spent virtually all the year on their butts. Regarding depth, have you looked at LB lately? Or for that matter DB? This defense is being held together with spit and bailing wire, or have all those comments about counting on Zimmer to work miracles with scraps gone down the memory hole as well?

Our d-line is currently one of the best and most talented in the league. Our CB corps is solid, assuming they are able to re-sign Pacman which most people have little doubt of and even better assuming Kirkpatrick comes in healthy. Yes, our LB and S situation need some work, but even with the weaknesses and stop-gap solutions that we've employed in the past, the Bengals still managed to perform quite well. Now we have an offseason/draft to improve weaknesses on an already solid defense, and you're somehow bothered by all of this? We finished 7th in the league...We've yet to lose anyone significant from last year (Sims to be determined), and we have an offseason to build upon what is already a strength. The Bengals are doomed!

The slow start is not a concern...how many teams have started slowly in the past and gone on to be just fine? That's football. We always complain about the Bengals staff not being able to make adjustments and adapt. And then, when we see them pull it off successfully, we can only see it as a negative?

But I wonder if the die isn't already cast -- that they uncommitted to Smith when they declined his option and that they have no real intention of re-signing him. If that turns out to be the case I'm going to be pissed, because I think the team has way too many needs to be creating extra holes heading into the draft.

There's nothing to back this up but pure pessimism.

[HoosierCat]

Our CB corps is solid, assuming they are able to re-sign Pacman which most people have little doubt of and even better assuming Kirkpatrick comes in healthy. Yes, our LB and S situation need some work, but even with the weaknesses and stop-gap solutions that we've employed in the past, the Bengals still managed to perform quite well. Now we have an offseason/draft to improve weaknesses on an already solid defense, and you're somehow bothered by all of this?

And you aren't? Let's review: you agree safety and linebacker "need some work." You agree CB is fine...if two of our three starters re-sign/pan out. You agree the defense has weaknesses and that the Bengals have been forced into "stop-gap solutions." And you agree they should use the draft to bolster the D.

Given all that, wouldn't you agree it's pretty dumb to blow a hole in your O-line by letting a capable RT walk when you have $50 million in cap space, and all but forcing you to got OT with your most valuable selection?

But I wonder if the die isn't already cast -- that they uncommitted to Smith when they declined his option and that they have no real intention of re-signing him. If that turns out to be the case I'm going to be pissed, because I think the team has way too many needs to be creating extra holes heading into the draft.

There's nothing to back this up but pure pessimism.

Except that they didn't pick up his option, didn't tag him, and haven't reached a deal despite his reportedly not-outrageous demands. It may not be the case -- which is why I simply said I wonder, not that it definitely is -- but there is certainly reason to believe they aren't high on bringing him back.

[skyline]

And you aren't?

Nope. Because, after all, we're talking about how to make the #7th ranked defense better. That's a pretty awesome discussion to be having. And, as we've seen, it's not going to take a host of major draft picks or big free agent signings to do it. Not that those things would be cause for complaint, mind you...

As for not picking up Andre's option, I fail to see what that has to do with how they feel about the guy today. He had yet to show anything, and now Smith has got to be grateful for that decision. Rather than being stuck for two more years in a low-money situation, he's going to be laughing all the way to the bank. The Bengals have a history of paying guys that perform, and I don't see any reason to think that they won't do the same here. Whether or not Andre accepts it is another story.

All of this said, I wouldn't get too caught up in our 21st pick. Whether Andre is back or not, I don't think we're handcuffed in any way in the 1st round. It's a deep draft and with 2-2nd rounders, they will have plenty of options regardless of the scenario.

[ArmyBengal]

Yes, teams lose draft picks all the time, but in going back to 2005 and looking at all the top 10 picks the majority of the teams that lost those picks were due to that player underperforming, injury, and even death (Gaines Adams). Most of those players may have gone on to do better in another situation, but those that performed well stuck with the team that drafted them in the top 10 "most" of the time.

If they lose Smith will it be the end of the world ?? No, of course not, but my standpoint is that it isn't smart. He's not asking for 12 million a season. He's asking for the going rate of a top 5 RT and he's earned it. With many saying Dalton needs more around him, I hardly think breaking the continuity of the line would help that thought.

I don't think bringing Smith back precludes them from drafting another OL either. As a matter of fact, I would be beside myself with them drafting Barrett Jones, starting him at Center and having him backup both Tackle spots. Also, if they lose Smith it doesn't lock them into a OL at #21. I could see Collins being named the starter in that situation and looking for another RT later in the draft.

Fanene and Rucker ?? Nope, I wasn't one who was all broken up by losing them and still don't care. If Sims isn't brought back, I think they are set with both Still and Thompson sitting there from last years draft.

My curiousity is wondering how much money they are hoping to push to 2014 and how much they spend in 2013?

I think if we knew that, it would be easier to figure out what may or may not happen.

[HoosierCat]

And you aren't?

Nope. Because, after all, we're talking about how to make the #7th ranked defense better. That's a pretty awesome discussion to be having. And, as we've seen, it's not going to take a host of major draft picks or big free agent signings to do it. Not that those things would be cause for complaint, mind you...

I agree, it's great to be talking about how to improve a top 10 D. I think the point where we diverge is in our analysis of how we got to that ranking. I see a defense that bounced back due to the aforementioned stop-gaps (Crocker and Newman) and under-appreciated players who seem unlikely to return (Sims, and I might list Geathers here as well). I would feel much better about the D's prospects if last year's ranking could be laid at the feet of developing young talent, but that's exactly what we didn't see, since Thompson, Still and Kirkpatrick all barely played. The one bright spot on that front was Burfict.

[skyline]

And you aren't?

Nope. Because, after all, we're talking about how to make the #7th ranked defense better. That's a pretty awesome discussion to be having. And, as we've seen, it's not going to take a host of major draft picks or big free agent signings to do it. Not that those things would be cause for complaint, mind you...

I agree, it's great to be talking about how to improve a top 10 D. I think the point where we diverge is in our analysis of how we got to that ranking. I see a defense that bounced back due to the aforementioned stop-gaps (Crocker and Newman) and under-appreciated players who seem unlikely to return (Sims, and I might list Geathers here as well). I would feel much better about the D's prospects if last year's ranking could be laid at the feet of developing young talent, but that's exactly what we didn't see, since Thompson, Still and Kirkpatrick all barely played. The one bright spot on that front was Burfict.

Yep, but I see your negative as a positive. We had a high-ranking D without our young talent. Having them join the mix is only a positive at this point.

And, that ignores a lot of the other young talent that we DO have...MJ, Dunlap, and Atkins of course.

Wait a minute, what was this thread about originally?

Oh yeah. I'd be a cool going OL early in the draft.

[HoosierCat]

Wait a minute, what was this thread about originally?

I believe it concerned my startlingly good looks and charming personality.

[skyline]

Wait a minute, what was this thread about originally?

I believe it concerned my startlingly good looks and charming personality.

Isn't that how ALL the threads start out? Goes without saying...I was obviously referring to the SECOND item of discussion.

[HoosierCat]

Wait a minute, what was this thread about originally?

I believe it concerned my startlingly good looks and charming personality.

Isn't that how ALL the threads start out? Goes without saying...I was obviously referring to the SECOND item of discussion.

Oh, right...my bad. We were talking about how stupid it was for the Bengals to be looking at a BLT early when they already have a perfectly good ham sandwich. I was saying that it was foolish to throw away the ham sandwich for a BLT when you don't even know if the tomatoes are fresh, and you argued that didn't matter because Andre Smith doesn't like tomatoes anyhow.

[skyline]

Wait a minute, what was this thread about originally?

I believe it concerned my startlingly good looks and charming personality.

Isn't that how ALL the threads start out? Goes without saying...I was obviously referring to the SECOND item of discussion.

...you argued that didn't matter because Andre Smith doesn't like tomatoes anyhow.

That's true. Her prefers the McRib:

[HoosierCat]

Y'know, it tastes fine but there's still something about the McRib that fundamentally creeps me out.

[ArmyBengal]

Just focus on the taste and try not to think about what it might be made of.

That creepy feeling diminishes when you stop thinking it could be made out of chicken lips and dicks.

[skyline]

After derailing the thread completely, here's a relevant blog post today be Hensley:

/>http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/73441/plenty-of-options-at-right-tackle-for-bengals

[HoosierCat]

I still think the best option is to keep the No. 1 free agent available.

/>http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/21811854/top-50-free-agents-no-bigname-vets-atop-list-and-thats-by-design