What positions do we address?

[redsbengalsbucks]

Basically. The messageboard contingent that wants Andre Smith to be moved with to G will be upset as well. It's not happening. I know everyone thinks that they can evaluate where he will play the best at, but it's highly unlikely that they're going to move him. Especially since he's finally coming on at the Tackle position. I wouldn't mind taking a top rated/immediate impact guard in the first round, but I think we're just going to have to see where our picks fall.

Sorry but Andre Smith needs to be moved to guard a la Leonard Davis and Robert Gallery. It might give him a chance to revive his career. He is much better at blocking the guy in front of him instead of blocking a guy on the move.

As witnessed by Freeney and Mathis having all those sacks against him, oh wait, they didnt get any!

[Spor_tees]

Basically. The messageboard contingent that wants Andre Smith to be moved with to G will be upset as well. It's not happening. I know everyone thinks that they can evaluate where he will play the best at, but it's highly unlikely that they're going to move him. Especially since he's finally coming on at the Tackle position. I wouldn't mind taking a top rated/immediate impact guard in the first round, but I think we're just going to have to see where our picks fall.

Sorry but Andre Smith needs to be moved to guard a la Leonard Davis and Robert Gallery. It might give him a chance to revive his career. He is much better at blocking the guy in front of him instead of blocking a guy on the move.

As witnessed by Freeney and Mathis having all those sacks against him, oh wait, they didnt get any!

One game does not make a career, nor does one aspect of the game make a player good at the position. You got to view a player by his whole 'body' (yeah I said body in a post concerning Andre Smith) of work.

Do you know who holds the record for most rushing yards in a single Super Bowl? Yeah that would be Timmy Smith (204). Yeah, that Timmy Smith. The one that unless you watched the game you probably never heard of. So how did that work out for his career? He played 3 years with a total of 602 rushing yards and 3 TDs.

[princeton]

Andre's play over the rest of the season is definitely the key to figuring out the 2012 first round. I prefer to watch a while before entering either side of the argument. another big test on Sunday.

it certainly makes the draft a lot easier if Andre plays well. the 2011 season should be more interesting, too. I'm pulling for the big man.

[redsbengalsbucks]

Basically. The messageboard contingent that wants Andre Smith to be moved with to G will be upset as well. It's not happening. I know everyone thinks that they can evaluate where he will play the best at, but it's highly unlikely that they're going to move him. Especially since he's finally coming on at the Tackle position. I wouldn't mind taking a top rated/immediate impact guard in the first round, but I think we're just going to have to see where our picks fall.

Sorry but Andre Smith needs to be moved to guard a la Leonard Davis and Robert Gallery. It might give him a chance to revive his career. He is much better at blocking the guy in front of him instead of blocking a guy on the move.

As witnessed by Freeney and Mathis having all those sacks against him, oh wait, they didnt get any!

One game does not make a career, nor does one aspect of the game make a player good at the position. You got to view a player by his whole 'body' (yeah I said body in a post concerning Andre Smith) of work.

Do you know who holds the record for most rushing yards in a single Super Bowl? Yeah that would be Timmy Smith (204). Yeah, that Timmy Smith. The one that unless you watched the game you probably never heard of. So how did that work out for his career? He played 3 years with a total of 602 rushing yards and 3 TDs.

I'm not saying he is great, but I am tired of all the negative about a player that is showing he is solid the first chance he gets to be healthy. If he continues to be healthy and learn as he goes he is the RT on this team for years.

Your right about not judging from one game, but you have look at all the circumstances before making a decision. Smith hasnt been healthy until this season and he is looking good this season.

[Spor_tees]

Basically. The messageboard contingent that wants Andre Smith to be moved with to G will be upset as well. It's not happening. I know everyone thinks that they can evaluate where he will play the best at, but it's highly unlikely that they're going to move him. Especially since he's finally coming on at the Tackle position. I wouldn't mind taking a top rated/immediate impact guard in the first round, but I think we're just going to have to see where our picks fall.

Sorry but Andre Smith needs to be moved to guard a la Leonard Davis and Robert Gallery. It might give him a chance to revive his career. He is much better at blocking the guy in front of him instead of blocking a guy on the move.

As witnessed by Freeney and Mathis having all those sacks against him, oh wait, they didnt get any!

One game does not make a career, nor does one aspect of the game make a player good at the position. You got to view a player by his whole 'body' (yeah I said body in a post concerning Andre Smith) of work.

Do you know who holds the record for most rushing yards in a single Super Bowl? Yeah that would be Timmy Smith (204). Yeah, that Timmy Smith. The one that unless you watched the game you probably never heard of. So how did that work out for his career? He played 3 years with a total of 602 rushing yards and 3 TDs.

I'm not saying he is great, but I am tired of all the negative about a player that is showing he is solid the first chance he gets to be healthy. If he continues to be healthy and learn as he goes he is the RT on this team for years.

Your right about not judging from one game, but you have look at all the circumstances before making a decision. Smith hasnt been healthy until this season and he is looking good this season.

But that's the rub, most of his circumstances are positions he put himself in. If he would have shown more dedication to footwork, than hand to mouth work, he wouldn't have been consistently overweight and out of shape. His being so overweight paid a large contribution to his foot problems, which in turn has kept him from playing. Now, when his contract with the Bengals is about to run out, he decides to get with the program and see how good he can be? I just don't like it.

[HairOnFire]

Andre's play over the rest of the season is definitely the key to figuring out the 2012 first round. I prefer to watch a while before entering either side of the argument. another big test on Sunday.

it certainly makes the draft a lot easier if Andre plays well. the 2011 season should be more interesting, too. I'm pulling for the big man.

Here's my take.

The gimme a lineman crowd remains fascinated with the idea of moving Whit back to OLG and Andre Smith inside to ORG precisely because they know how stupid they would sound if they blindly advocated selecting two OG's early in the draft. So instead they advocate shifting two very solid players inside, to less valuable and important positions, precisely because of the holes at OT that would be created. And there's the rub because it's far easier to make an argument in favor of drafting ANOTHER 1st round OT than it is for OG or OC. So that's what the Gimme a Lineman crowd does. But none of that changes the nagging fact the Bengals don't really need a new OT on either side. Nor do they truly need an upgrade at OC.

Point blank, every year the gimme a lineman crowd bleats loudly for something they don't bother defining. Just gimme a lineman. Well which one, I ask? Which rookie offensive lineman is so special that he truly deserves being drafted earlier than all of the others who also play his position?

Gimme a name.

[Spor_tees]

Andre's play over the rest of the season is definitely the key to figuring out the 2012 first round. I prefer to watch a while before entering either side of the argument. another big test on Sunday.

it certainly makes the draft a lot easier if Andre plays well. the 2011 season should be more interesting, too. I'm pulling for the big man.

Here's my take.

The gimme a lineman crowd remains fascinated with the idea of moving Whit back to OLG and Andre Smith inside to ORG precisely because they know how stupid they would sound if they blindly advocated selecting two OG's early in the draft. So instead they advocate shifting two very solid players inside, to less valuable and important positions, precisely because of the holes at OT that would be created. And there's the rub because it's far easier to make an argument in favor of drafting ANOTHER 1st round OT than it is for OG or OC. So that's what the Gimme a Lineman crowd does. But none of that changes the nagging fact the Bengals don't really need a new OT on either side. Nor do they truly need an upgrade at OC.

Point blank, every year the gimme a lineman crowd bleats loudly for something they don't bother defining. Just gimme a lineman. Well which one, I ask? Which rookie offensive lineman is so special that he truly deserves being drafted earlier than all of the others who also play his position?

Gimme a name.

Well I don't advocate moving Whit to LG, I think the best option for replacing Livings is to draft Glenn out of Georgia or perhaps Osemele out of Iowa State. Osemele also has experience playing OT in a pinch. The largest problem the Bengals face is they are in a need of replacing both guards after the season. One guard needs replaced because of age, and the other because of lack of talent. So what do you do? Assess the whole picture. You have one stud LT that is on the verge of making the Pro Bowl, if he doesn't make it this year, and a RT that is oft injured, out of shape, and over weight. The latter in Smith is a great straight ahead run blocker, and once he does latch a hold of a block he rarely gets shed. Problem is, he has poor foot work on the edge and he has problems picking up blocks in open space. This has become VERY evident by the Bengals poor running game outside the tackles this year.

So, I say you leave Whitworth where he is, you draft a replacement at LG out of those I mentioned, which will probably be the latter of the Bengal's first round picks. On the right side you slide Smith down to RG to replace Bobbie, and you either trade up to draft Khalil with the extra Palmer picks, look for a diamond in the rough like Matt Reynolds from BYU, or let Collins come in and play for a year. Collins has already shown that he has the ability to play RT effectively.

As for Cook at OC I think he has progressed each year and I don't see drafting a replacement until he starts going backwards. The protections haven't been screwed up this year and I think a big part of that has come from Cook's maturity as a player and a leader.

[redsbengalsbucks]

I would like to see them draft a G to compete for Livings job. Bolling will be the other G in the future.

My hope is they draft the best CB with the first pick and get the best OG with the second pick in the first round. In the second round I would love to see a S or RB, with the next pick the other position. If they can get 4 players that will push to start in those four spots look out next season.

[Spor_tees]

I would like to see them draft a G to compete for Livings job. Bolling will be the other G in the future.

My hope is they draft the best CB with the first pick and get the best OG with the second pick in the first round. In the second round I would love to see a S or RB, with the next pick the other position. If they can get 4 players that will push to start in those four spots look out next season.

I was thinking about Bolling but he has a lot of development ahead of him. The coaches must think the same or they wouldn't have picked up McGlynn and plugged him right into RG the first week with the team. This is only McGlynn's 4th year in the league and he can play both guard positions plus center. That is pretty handy and makes me wonder why the Eagles released him and kept Evan Mathis.

[TJJackson]

Well, let's say for sake of argument we want to keep Whit and the Flesh Zeppelin on the outside. Ok

In that scenario, I still want two OTs because I want to replace Livings and Grampa Bobbie....and I'd rather do it with players who are athletic enough to play tackle should Whit begin to slip or the Flesh Zeppelin have his magic foot go out on him again

So, either way - gimme a lineman. Twice, in fact.

[TJJackson]

Gimme a name.

Don't have one yet, and don't need to yet.

Every year there are OLs that grade out to round 1.

A few more in some years, a few less in others.....but I am confident this year will fall into the same pattern

[Spor_tees]

You want a name? That's all you want...a name? I'll give you a name, Keyser Söze.

[COB]

I'll give you a name: Axelrod Pilgrim.

[Sea Ray]

Andre's play over the rest of the season is definitely the key to figuring out the 2012 first round. I prefer to watch a while before entering either side of the argument. another big test on Sunday.

it certainly makes the draft a lot easier if Andre plays well. the 2011 season should be more interesting, too. I'm pulling for the big man.

Here's my take.

The gimme a lineman crowd remains fascinated with the idea of moving Whit back to OLG and Andre Smith inside to ORG precisely because they know how stupid they would sound if they blindly advocated selecting two OG's early in the draft. So instead they advocate shifting two very solid players inside, to less valuable and important positions, precisely because of the holes at OT that would be created. And there's the rub because it's far easier to make an argument in favor of drafting ANOTHER 1st round OT than it is for OG or OC. So that's what the Gimme a Lineman crowd does. But none of that changes the nagging fact the Bengals don't really need a new OT on either side. Nor do they truly need an upgrade at OC.

Point blank, every year the gimme a lineman crowd bleats loudly for something they don't bother defining. Just gimme a lineman. Well which one, I ask? Which rookie offensive lineman is so special that he truly deserves being drafted earlier than all of the others who also play his position?

Gimme a name.

I agree with you but weren't you the one pimping an OC a couple years ago (Pouncey) instead of a much more needy position, TE? As for names, it's still early. Some studs could arise especially in non glamour areas like OL.

[HairOnFire]

I agree with you but weren't you the one pimping an OC a couple years ago (Pouncey) instead of a much more needy position, TE?

But that's exactly my point. If any of us is really going to argue in favor of the Bengals using a very high pick on a devalued position you should be able to point to a prospect who is worthy. For me, that guy was Pouncey....and in retrospect I think I'm standing on very solid ground on that one. In fact, I'd say the Pouncy example is hard proof of my willingness to throw out any conventional draft wisdom when given the opportunity to draft a truly special player regardless of the position he plays. Hell, I'll even toss out my own cherished "churn & burn" WR rant for a special prospect like AJ Green.

And turning to TJ's point, while it's true that prospects will eventually emerge...I'd say it's just as true that any truly special interior OL prospects, like Pouncey was, should be obvious already, if they exist at all. And I'm not seeing it. In fact, the kid I like the most, DeCastro, isn't considered worthy of a 1st round pick by many, and I'm not willing to "stand on the table" arguing differently.

Plus, I'm never going to agree with any OLine building strategy based upon using premium picks to select OT prospects and shift them inside where their better athletic skills might be put to use. Let's just say that any strategy based upon buying high and then instantly devaluing an asset has a few problems, not the least of which is how the Bengals long established reliance on sheer size and zone blocking doesn't require elite athletic skills to succeed. Rather, what it needs is better players of the same type.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

The gimme a lineman crowd remains fascinated with the idea of moving Whit back to OLG and Andre Smith inside to ORG precisely because they know how stupid they would sound if they blindly advocated selecting two OG's early in the draft.

Don't lump those together, they're two separate issues. I'm not in the "Move Whitworth inside" crowd, but I am in the "Get Andre the hell off the edge" crowd. You know why? Because he's not a very good there.

And there's the rub because it's far easier to make an argument in favor of drafting ANOTHER 1st round OT than it is for OG or OC.

That argument need not be made - lots of NFL OG start out as OT anyway. Not to mention - who says OG isn't a valuable position? Besides Mike Brown, anyway. I've got Steve Hutchinson on line 1.

So instead they advocate shifting two very solid players inside,

Did that refer to Andre Smith? You think he's actually good at RT? Seriously? I mean I know it's hard for you to say you were wrong given how hard you campaigned for him before the draft, but come on. In this case it makes sense because he's strong but has bad feet. Does that sound like a Guard, or a Tackle?

Gimme a name.

It's October. How about we wait until the season's over? Until then, I have every confidence that the NFL draft will contain a good OL near where the Bengals are likely to pick. Besides, you can play that game with every position. Turn the tables - what player are you so enamored with that you'd pass up a good OL?

And what the hell is wrong with stocking the pond with talented OL, anyway? Isn't that, like, the most important thing on the team besides QB?

[TJJackson]

the kid I like the most, DeCastro, isn't considered worthy of a 1st round pick by many, and I'm not willing to "stand on the table" arguing differently.

Tell me about this kid who plays in your backyard - Kalil

Honestly I dont know much about him and would like to hear what you think

[Spor_tees]

the kid I like the most, DeCastro, isn't considered worthy of a 1st round pick by many, and I'm not willing to "stand on the table" arguing differently.

Tell me about this kid who plays in your backyard - Kalil

Honestly I dont know much about him and would like to hear what you think

I'm really interested in the kid too. He is pretty much viewed as a top 5 pick but I hadn't seen much of him just read articles. I watched the USC and Notre Dame game, and the only time I can remember his name mentioned is when he got an unsportsmanlike penalty. That's actually a good thing though, because as a lineman usually the only time they say your name is when you screwed up. I'm just not sure how the Bengals could up that far to get him.

[Horsemen]

The game's won in the trenches.

And the draft game is won by knowing how to work the draft board and prioritize picks. 5 first round Olinemen isn't prioritizing your draft board. In fact outside of LT and Center unless you're the Pats or Packers with zero needs you don't go offensive line in the first.

Besides, Bobbie's old -

And a Right Guard, a position that is regularly found in rounds 2-5.

On the defensive side - would an elite pass rusher at DE kill us?

Big difference between the Dline and the Oline.

[Horsemen]

Here's my take.

The gimme a lineman crowd remains fascinated with the idea of moving Whit back to OLG and Andre Smith inside to ORG precisely because they know how stupid they would sound if they blindly advocated selecting two OG's early in the draft. So instead they advocate shifting two very solid players inside, to less valuable and important positions, precisely because of the holes at OT that would be created. And there's the rub because it's far easier to make an argument in favor of drafting ANOTHER 1st round OT than it is for OG or OC. So that's what the Gimme a Lineman crowd does. But none of that changes the nagging fact the Bengals don't really need a new OT on either side. Nor do they truly need an upgrade at OC.

Point blank, every year the gimme a lineman crowd bleats loudly for something they don't bother defining. Just gimme a lineman. Well which one, I ask? Which rookie offensive lineman is so special that he truly deserves being drafted earlier than all of the others who also play his position?

Gimme a name.

It's a pretty good take and basically spot on, like I said some crowds won't be happy until the Oline is nothing but first round draft picks, 75% of our salary cap and even then i'm not sure it would change. It seems that some just want us to dedicate round one to the Offensive line every year period. *Shrugs* don't look at me, I said use our 1st on Orakpo and our 2nd on Sebastian Vollmer in the '09 draft over on Jungle Noise.

[TJJackson]

And the draft game is won by knowing how to work the draft board and prioritize picks. 5 first round Olinemen isn't prioritizing your draft board.

Don't let the facts that no one has asked for 5 first round OL and no team (us included) has 5 first round picks stop your rant. Heck, they didn't stop Bluto when he weant on about the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor.....

In fact outside of LT and Center unless you're the Pats or Packers with zero needs you don't go offensive line in the first.

Actually, you draft for need, and we have plenty of 'need' on this unit.

And a Right Guard, a position that is regularly found in rounds 2-5.

Starting to think you may be one of the Brown family. Every OL starter is important, and if a "special" player (in Hair's parlance) is available who projects to either Guard spot, we could certainly use him. We have a talented young quarterback - why not protect him better so his career lasts longer? Why not make his job easier by opening more and bigger holes in the running game?

Given the choice between a star guard and an average tackle, give me the star guard. Period. Regardless of the round.

On the defensive side - would an elite pass rusher at DE kill us?

Big difference between the Dline and the Oline.

....and he talked about winning the trenches, meaning both lines. Get it yet? Probably not, given the weakness of the thought processes your diatribe has made manifest thus far

[TJJackson]

some crowds won't be happy until the Oline is nothing but first round draft picks

No one I know of

Find good lineman (either side) in whatever round you can

It's generally just more likely you'll get a good one in the earlier rounds

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

And the draft game is won by knowing how to work the draft board and prioritize picks. 5 first round Olinemen isn't prioritizing your draft board. In fact outside of LT and Center unless you're the Pats or Packers with zero needs you don't go offensive line in the first.

I want to hear a solid analysis on why a LG is less valuable than, say, a S or a #2 WR which have been knocked around as the other alternatives for draft needs. Because other than a CB which I've already addressed as a need, what position are *you* looking at? Personally, I'd be more than happy to drop the first 3 picks on line*, line*, CB in no particular order.

*Offense or defense.

[BengalPimp]

I'm not in the camp of moving Whit to guard, unless, however, it makes the Line stronger, thats for the coaches to decide. If somehow a STUD LT falls to where the Bengals select, you pretty much have to take him. I'm not saying you keep him at LT though. A lot of players drafted as LT, end up switching to RT, or even to G, so there is that option, but bottom line is if a guy can play LT, you've got a very valuable and likely versatile lineman.

I'd like to see a T drafted highly rather than G, but if it's an absolute STUD of a G, then hell yeah you do it........But let the record show, that I LOVE Whit, and am VERY Happy with him at LT.

The thing that also needs to be taken into consideration is you have 2 1st Rd picks, and a couple of months ago, the Bengals opted out of the Andre Smith extension, because at that point, they had no idea what they had in him.

His Rookie contract was basically a 4 year deal, with a club option to extend it to 6 years that had to be exercised at the beginning of the 2011 season. Well, the Bengals declined and now Big Dre is only under contract through next season (2012). That means, they either have to extend him, OR Draft a guy who can play that RT position, but also Guard if they need him too.

This is the ESPN article that explains his deal.

http://espn.go.com/b...ntract-decision

This is from Rotoworld saying the Bengals opted out of the final 2 years

http://www.rotoworld...099/andre-smith

Since there currently isn't another option at RT on the team, and come draft time, Dre will be entering into the Final year of his deal.......I say, yeah, Gimme A Lineman......You do after all have 2 1st Rd'ers

[HairOnFire]

Did that refer to Andre Smith? You think he's actually good at RT? Seriously? I mean I know it's hard for you to say you were wrong given how hard you campaigned for him before the draft, but come on.

Let's talk Andre.

But let's start with the fact that throughout that draft process I campaigned far longer and harder for Brian Orakpo, a player who I not only thought was "special", but also played a position of need for the Bengals. But yeah, as Smith began to fall in the draft I shifted my flag to Camp Andre precisely because he could play ORT, widely viewed as the teams very biggest and most pressing need. In short, I let concerns about the teams greatest need trump my own desire for another player who I felt was better but played a position of lesser need.

So how has that worked out? And for the record, the reason I'm asking that question now isn't to defend my past choice, but rather....because you and the rest of the "Gimme a Lineman" crowd are currently advocating the Bengals embrace the very same thought process and repeat the very same steps that led to the selection of Andre Smith. A pick that once pleased the "Gimme a Lineman" crowd very much.

Currently, you and others are arguing in favor of a position being addressed without giving any consideration whatsoever to the individuals being considered or whether the pick would have value. You neither give the names of prospects you consider worthy or firmly commit to which positions should be addressed. You arguments are based entirely upon a perceived need at a position, not on the individual talent, skills, or personality of the prospect who would be expected to provide the desired upgrade. In other words, while attempting to hold my feet to the fire over a past mistake you believe I've made you loudly advocate the Bengals further embrace the very things that prompted me to make that mistake.

As for Smith himself, from your comments you make it clear you don't believe the choice has worked out at all. I won't argue the point much. I admit without any hesitation at all that Smith hasn't been as advertised and hasn't been even remotely worthy of the very high draft pick used to put him in stripes. But also without any hesitation I will add that IMHO he hasn't played so poorly that he needs to be shifted inside. Far from it, in fact. At worst Smith has been average...yet even that much has been enough to transform the ORT position from that of a giant gaping wound to a position that is neither a strength or a weakness.