Where was the West Coast Offense?

[HairOnFire]

Oh wait, come to think of it, the other possibility is that Hair's latest bag may have been mostly seeds, stems, and oregano

Sorry Cheech, but the stuff I buy is perfectly legal, and is sold in plastic containers with screw on lids, printed labels, government warnings, and bar codes.

BTW, this weekend the smell and taste of freedom had a slight hint of blackberries and traces of something dank and mysterious I could not identify easily. More testing will be required.

[derekshank]

I suddenly feel the need to say something that nobody else is seeing, and few want to hear. But after the Denver game just witnessed, well...hear it you will.

IMHO Gresham is busting.

For my part, I can't comment on what we saw from Jermaine Gresham against Denver... simply because you can't see that which is invisible.

[cHaD711Johnson]

I will admit I am wrong about the one that was almost intercepted. That was Gradkowski. I still remember Dalton threw a ball behind a couple guys. The one Gresham dropped was behind him some and high I believe.

I just rewatched the game... and was even more impressed with Dalton than I was initially. The only throw he had that wasn't perfectly placed was the throw to Green when he got hurt.

The throw that Gresham dropped hit him in the hands between the numbers.

FWIW I spent part of my weekend rewatching the Cleveland game. More specifically, I watched Jermain Gresham on every offensive snap, something I had never bothered doing before, but something I wanted to do because I suddenly feel the need to say something that nobody else is seeing, and few want to hear. But after the Denver game just witnessed, well...hear it you will.

IMHO Gresham is busting.

Worse, if things don't improve quickly it's going to be a very hard bust.

You are reaching.

[HairOnFire]

I suddenly feel the need to say something that nobody else is seeing, and few want to hear. But after the Denver game just witnessed, well...hear it you will.

IMHO Gresham is busting.

For my part, I can't comment on what we saw from Jermaine Gresham against Denver... simply because you can't see that which is invisible.

Sad but true. But like you I rewatched the Cleveland game and I quickly learned the closer you watch Gresham the more disappointed you become.

Remember the hard out to Green in the endzone that failed? On that play Gresham was pushed back into the pocket as if he were a man on rollerskates. Or how about the failed cut block a Cleveland defender simply stepped over to make a tackle on Benson? Or how about the failed double team block where Gresham briefly teamed with Whitworth to block a defender, only to result in Gresham sliding harmlessly off and falling to the ground. And yeah, the dropped pass that hit him in the numbers.

Highlites? There were just two. The first was the previously mentioned 20-yard seam route that Cleveland didn't bother covering. Frankly, any TE can make that play, but Gresham actually does and I won't fault him for it. Last, the simply gorgeous route Gresham runs before making a TD catch. On the play Gresham runs a sharp and crisp route through traffic yet manages to avoid making contact with anyone. It's brilliant.

But that's it.

[HairOnFire]

You are reaching.

Prove it.

[Spor_tees]

You are reaching.

Prove it.

Don't go busting the guy's chops too much just yet. Gresham did break the Bengals rookie receptions record last year. So I would hardly call that a bust. I know you are used to having great tightends in Cincinnati like Matt Schobel, Tony McGee, Ben Utech, and Daniel Coats. I think if you give this guy a little more time, he might just live up to those high standards. Don't just take my word for it, here is the word of a tenured NFL tight end that has played for some pretty good teams:

“He’s going to be one of the greatest tight ends to ever play this game,” said Lee. “I didn’t know much about him, but watching him in practice, he looked like a wide receiver out there. I look at that guy as like a Randy Moss for this team. He’s a great guy and I feel blessed to be here and to be able to work with him.”

That little nugget came from Donald Lee, a 9 year NFL vet that has spent time in Green Bay. He might have a little knowledge about the league and where Gresham is heading. Thanks to Kirkendall at Cincyjungle.com for the quote.

[HairOnFire]

“I didn’t know much about him, but watching him in practice, he looked like a wide receiver out there. I look at that guy as like a Randy Moss for this team."

Well there's the problem. Gresham looks like a WR out there because he plays like a WR. In fact, I think anyone who takes a longer closer look will quickly concluded he's a pathetic blocker and a flat-out liability in the running game.

It's sorta like having a rich mans version of Chase Coffman.....except Chase would drop fewer passes.

[Spor_tees]

“I didn’t know much about him, but watching him in practice, he looked like a wide receiver out there. I look at that guy as like a Randy Moss for this team."

Well there's the problem. Gresham looks like a WR out there because he plays like a WR. In fact, I think anyone who takes a longer closer look will quickly concluded he's a pathetic blocker and a flat-out liability in the running game.

It's sorta like having a rich mans version of Chase Coffman.....except Chase would drop fewer passes.

He reminds me of Vernon Davis his first 2 years. He is just taking some time to mature into an NFL player. Right now he is doing what comes naturally to him and that is being a receiver. He wasn't counted on being so much of a blocker in Oklahoma as he is now in Cincinnati where he is the third/fourth option in the offense.

[Sea Ray]

It's sorta like having a rich mans version of Chase Coffman.....except Chase would drop fewer passes.

That and he'd run circles around Coffman in a foot race

[HairOnFire]

Running circles is about all Gresham is good for, if the Denver game is proof of anything.

[Spor_tees]

It's sorta like having a rich mans version of Chase Coffman.....except Chase would drop fewer passes.

That and he'd run circles around Coffman in a foot race

Watch what you say, next thing you know, he'll be out racing horses for charity.

[HoosierCat]

[Spor_tees]

Is that a Halloween Eagle?

[HairOnFire]

Is that a Halloween Eagle?

No, it's a picture of a Hoosier Ostrich.

The species is so rare it was once thought to be extinct due to the habit of male Hoosier Ostrich's shoving their heads into the sand, or into their own butts, during breeding season.

[COB]

Outstanding work there.

[HairOnFire]

Outstanding work there.

Really?

Are standards really that low around here that someone can make a doodle with a few crayons and it's considered work?

Here's a question.

How long will I have to wait before somebody rushes to Gresham's defense using actual analysis instead of a laundry list of excuses or stupid pictures of a bird lifted from Photobucket?

Sheesh, at least Spor_tees is trying to defend the guy by comparing him to a player who eventually got it. To listen to rest of you you'd think Gresham is ripping it right now, and the only thing holding him back is no Tom Brady under center.

Haters gotta hate?

Or is this yet another example of the clueless proving how they don't know what they don't know?

[HoosierCat]

Outstanding work there.

Thanks, but credit should go to teh google, which found it for me. Just seemed appropriate somehow.

[Spor_tees]

Vernon Davis is widely considered one of the best TEs in the NFL, despite being a first round pick like Gresham, he didn't breakout until his fourth year. Let's just give it some time....and Hoosier work on the photoshop stuff, try to get a hold of Black Jesus if you need to.

[HairOnFire]

Vernon Davis is widely considered one of the best TEs in the NFL, despite being a first round pick like Gresham, he didn't breakout until his fourth year. Let's just give it some time....

He's your sacred cow, not mine.

Most of you have made it clear that criticizing Gresham is either off limits OR is simply something you're not going to do until you can work up the courage to face the wrath of Hoosier's mocking bird pictures. Obviously I have no such fears.

[insert Bird Photo]

Point blank, right now Jermaine Gresham isn't merely playing badly. He's playing soft. In fact, he's playing like a p***y. Or if you prefer, he's playing like an over-hyped puffed up WR masquerading as a TE.

[insert Bird Photo]

And even worse, if judged soley as a WR Gresham still isn't very good. He drops far too many passes, has a fairly miserable YPC average, and too often fails to get open when he's the primary receiver. But I admit if you could fix those things Gresham might someday deserve to be mentioned as one of the greatest TE's of all time, as Donald Lee claimed. But right now that's a pretty stupid thing to say, and for the sake of Donald Lee I hope he was drunk or high when he said it.

BTW, those familiar with economics may be familar with Gresham's Law, the principle that teaches how two objects may have equal purchasing power, but the one with more intrinsic value will be hoarded while the lesser object will remain in circulation. How any of this applies to this thread is anyones guess, but it seems to me the whole Gresham's Law thing has the makings of a very fine nickname if Gresham could stop sucking.

[insert Bird Photo]

[BengalPimp]

And even worse, if judged soley as a WR Gresham still isn't very good. He drops far too many passes, has a fairly miserable YPC average, and too often fails to get open when he's the primary receiver. But I admit if you could fix those things Gresham might someday deserve to be mentioned as one of the greatest TE's of all time, as Donald Lee claimed.

Whoa there buddy, Gresham has a sh*t QB who can't/won't throw the ball more than 5 freakin yards.....

His "fairly miserable" YPC his ROOKIE SEASON was 9.1 about the same as Dallas Clark and Tony Gonzalez (both 9.4)

This year he is down a bit at 8.3, but that's because he has a QB in Dalton that can't even throw the ball 10 yards.....Dalton is a QB who NEEDS his Receivers to get huge yards after the catch because he can't throw downfield.

If dalton were able to get the ball to Gresham in space, you'd see what he could do. I cannot figure out WHY they don't run plays to do so, other than the Offensive line is Sh*t and they want him closer.

He's a 2nd year TE, his blocking will improve. Antonio Gates couldn't block for sh*t for years, that's why the Chargers needed a guy like Brandon Manumaleuna, but everybody overlooked it because of #'s. Vernon Davis still isn't that good of a blocker, but he was piss poor at first and had major dropsies. With "Spread" Offenses the norm in college football now, these TE's are almost like Receivers and were never taught to block on the collegiate (or high school) level.....

But going back to your whole "miserable YPC average" Hair, buddy, how many times last year....or so far this season have you seen them send Gresham? They don't. They keep him close to the line, block for a few seconds, then release. Release him right away, and call deeper plays for him. Bratkowski sure as hell didn't know how to use a TE, and I'm starting to think Gruden doesn't either.....

Hair, pal, I think you got a hold of a bad batch.....

[redsbengalsbucks]

And even worse, if judged soley as a WR Gresham still isn't very good. He drops far too many passes, has a fairly miserable YPC average, and too often fails to get open when he's the primary receiver. But I admit if you could fix those things Gresham might someday deserve to be mentioned as one of the greatest TE's of all time, as Donald Lee claimed.

Whoa there buddy, Gresham has a sh*t QB who can't/won't throw the ball more than 5 freakin yards.....

His "fairly miserable" YPC his ROOKIE SEASON was 9.1 about the same as Dallas Clark and Tony Gonzalez (both 9.4)

This year he is down a bit at 8.3, but that's because he has a QB in Dalton that can't even throw the ball 10 yards.....Dalton is a QB who NEEDS his Receivers to get huge yards after the catch because he can't throw downfield.

If dalton were able to get the ball to Gresham in space, you'd see what he could do. I cannot figure out WHY they don't run plays to do so, other than the Offensive line is Sh*t and they want him closer.

He's a 2nd year TE, his blocking will improve. Antonio Gates couldn't block for sh*t for years, that's why the Chargers needed a guy like Brandon Manumaleuna, but everybody overlooked it because of #'s. Vernon Davis still isn't that good of a blocker, but he was piss poor at first and had major dropsies. With "Spread" Offenses the norm in college football now, these TE's are almost like Receivers and were never taught to block on the collegiate (or high school) level.....

But going back to your whole "miserable YPC average" Hair, buddy, how many times last year....or so far this season have you seen them send Gresham? They don't. They keep him close to the line, block for a few seconds, then release. Release him right away, and call deeper plays for him. Bratkowski sure as hell didn't know how to use a TE, and I'm starting to think Gruden doesn't either.....

Hair, pal, I think you got a hold of a bad batch.....

Pimp, did you even watch the second half of the Denver game? Dalton was not the problem, Gresham did not step up and make a play like a upper tier TE should have.

Pimp you need to give Dalton some credit he has looked good so far.

[Spor_tees]

I still think they need to add in a TE screen, some RB screens, and run the wheel route with Scott some. It looked more like a West Coast offense in week 2 than week 1, but there is still some room to improve.

I don't want to here anything about them losing in week 2 because they got away from the week 1 strategy. It wasn't the strategy that lost the game, it was the lack of putting on the big boy pads when it came down to short yardage situations.

[COB]

Outstanding work there.

Really?

Yep, I love strangely photoshopped pictures. A bald eagle marked up in sloppy bengals stripes is right in my wheelhouse.

Are standards really that low around here

My endorsement reflects only my feelings. Overall standards on the site are probably higher.

[derekshank]

Whoa there buddy, Gresham has a sh*t QB who can't/won't throw the ball more than 5 freakin yards.....

Credibility continues to plummet.

The 84 yard pass to Simpson was in the air for 25 yards... and perfectly placed to split the defenders. Simpson gets credit for not being easily tackled, but a bad throw makes the run after the catch impossible (Why doesn't Tom Brady get bashed for Welker's YAC on the 99 yard TD? Because it was a good throw that allowed it).

A.J Green only has 20 yards after catch on the season (most coming on his TD in Cleveland)... but somehow managed to catch 10 passes for 126 yards. Very difficult when the ball is only in the air for 5 yards. Some would say... mathematically impossible.

Quit being a tool. Dalton has been impressive.

[HairOnFire]

Whoa there buddy, Gresham has a sh*t QB who can't/won't throw the ball more than 5 freakin yards.....

Bulls**t. By nearly ALL accounts Andy Dalton has been better than advertised and he certainly had no problem connecting with his wideouts aginst Denver. Yet that game now ranks as the very worst Gresham has played since turning pro precisely because Gresham played no role as a reciever. And regardless of the opponent, as a blocker we expect nothing from Gresham. So what do we have?

Furthermore, last season Gresham was catching passes from a veteran QB who most certainly could throw the ball farther than 5 yards, yet Gresham's average per catch over a full season of work was modest, if not borderline pathetic....despite catching a buttload of balls.

As for how Gresham has been used this season? Let me remind you that he was Dalton's primary target against Cleveland and was not only featured on more seam routes and a scoring play, but was also lined up as a WR on at least four snaps....including one play where he flat out dropped a perfect pass.

To be fair, I haven't bothered breaking down the Denver game snap by snap as I did after the Cleveland game, but why would I? Does anyone really want to have this conversation using the Denver game as a benchmark?

Gresham's blocking may improve with time...(How could it not?)...but I'm starting to fear it won't. And the reason I say that is because Gresham, despite having a great combination of size and speed, plays like a much smaller man on most plays. He can't pass block worth a lick, as a run blocker he's more of a hole plugger than a hole opener, and he simply isn't very physical. But even worse, he really isn't much of a receiver yet and all of you are telling me that's what his real job is.

Frankly, I'm tired of the sacred cow act. If this were Andre Smith we were talking about there would be a long line of posters stepping up to blast away at a so-called wasted draft pick and the unrealized potential being wasted. So how is this any different?

I am not a hater. It pains me to say some of the things I've said, and I look forward to the day when I can say more positive things about Gresham. But I can't do that yet. In fact, right now the closer I look the less I like. And not only does that have to change, I think we're all fools if we keep talking about this guy as someone who might be one of the best TE's to ever play.

Bottom Line: Gresham doesn't need a bigger fan club. He needs to be called out.