Where was the West Coast Offense?

[derekshank]

Have you ever watched a Green Bay game? What about a Philadelphia Eagles game?

Take it easy there fella. Dalton is a rookie who had no time this offseason to work with his OC... who is also a rookie. Let's temper our expectations a bit.

Dalton isn't going to look like Aaron Rodgers... probably ever (few do), let alone in his first NFL start. So let's give the Bengals some time to ease him into the situation, k?

Running the ball out of power formations is the smart move here. Relax and enjoy the W.

[derekshank]

They need more screen plays, they need to have more formations and motion plays to isolate the TE on a linebacker, and more 3 step drop pass plays to help take the thinking out of Dalton's head so he can just make plays.

The Bengals completed 15 passes yesterday. 9 of the 15 completions were to a RB or TE.

I think you are really overstating your case here. Yes, the Bengals had some rough patches where they had trouble moving the ball, but they did the things you are advocating. They just didn't succeed consistently.

This is what happens when you have a rookie and a backup playing QB for your team. Patience my dear.

[Spor_tees]

They need more screen plays, they need to have more formations and motion plays to isolate the TE on a linebacker, and more 3 step drop pass plays to help take the thinking out of Dalton's head so he can just make plays.

The Bengals completed 15 passes yesterday. 9 of the 15 completions were to a RB or TE.

I think you are really overstating your case here. Yes, the Bengals had some rough patches where they had trouble moving the ball, but they did the things you are advocating. They just didn't succeed consistently.

This is what happens when you have a rookie and a backup playing QB for your team. Patience my dear.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.

You are taking the final stats out of context and not using the game as a reference. That would be paper whipping the subject. Most of Gresham's catches were check downs except maybe 2, one being the touchdown pass. I can only remember one set up screen pass and that was to Leonard at the end of the first half.

2nd and 11 at CIN 46 (Shotgun) A.Dalton pass short left to B.Leonard to CLV 47 for 7 yards (A.Rubin). Timeout #2 by CIN at 00:56.

Everyone is big on the rookie QB thing, but as you all have read, Dalton has been labeled 'the most starter ready' of all the rookie QBs in the league. The guy started like 47 games while playing 4 years at TCU.

[derekshank]

Everyone is big on the rookie QB thing, but as you all have read, Dalton has been labeled 'the most starter ready' of all the rookie QBs in the league. The guy started like 47 games while playing 4 years at TCU.

First of all, there is a big difference between TCU and the NFL. The speed difference alone effects even the most NFL ready QBs.

Secondly, even if Dalton is getting Gruden's offense faster than anyone could have hoped (which by all accounts seems to be the case), that doesn't change the fact that the rest of the offense has to learn it too, on shortened time.

Lastly, what are you complaining about again? Dalton was productive. You want more dump off passes to the guys that are generally used as safety valves? Why? Dalton made good decisions all day long.

Gruden trusted him not to force the ball to Green just because he was the first read. What does it matter if a pass to Gresham was the first option, the second, or the third? Is the production any different? It simply means that Dalton is a good enough decision maker to give Gruden options when he's calling the game. Is that not a good thing?

[Spor_tees]

Everyone is big on the rookie QB thing, but as you all have read, Dalton has been labeled 'the most starter ready' of all the rookie QBs in the league. The guy started like 47 games while playing 4 years at TCU.

First of all, there is a big difference between TCU and the NFL. The speed difference alone effects even the most NFL ready QBs.

Secondly, even if Dalton is getting Gruden's offense faster than anyone could have hoped (which by all accounts seems to be the case), that doesn't change the fact that the rest of the offense has to learn it too, on shortened time.

Lastly, what are you complaining about again? Dalton was productive. You want more dump off passes to the guys that are generally used as safety valves? Why? Dalton made good decisions all day long.

Gruden trusted him not to force the ball to Green just because he was the first read. What does it matter if a pass to Gresham was the first option, the second, or the third? Is the production any different? It simply means that Dalton is a good enough decision maker to give Gruden options when he's calling the game. Is that not a good thing?

Why do I complain about how a guy is getting the ball even if it is a checkdown? Because those guys (Gresham, Shipley, and Leonard...throw in Bernard Scott for that matter) are playmakers and should have plays designed for them so they can make something happen. Heck I would have liked to seen a WR screen to Green yesterday too. The commentators even commented on how strong Green was with his stiff arm on Haden on the PI call.

Dalton didn't make good decisions ALL day long he almost threw a pick 6 to Joe Haden when he tried to force a TD pass into Green at the pylon. I also seriously doubt that it would be the rest of the offense holding Gruden back from installing more plays. Dalton was Kitna like productive with his low 5.4 yards per completion average. The largest reason for that, was his high number of checkdown passes. Problem is, when they are checkdown passes there is usually no RaC versus a designed play where a receiver has some blocking for them. Just say'n.

[kingwilly]

Why do I complain about how a guy is getting the ball even if it is a checkdown? Because those guys (Gresham, Shipley, and Leonard...throw in Bernard Scott for that matter) are playmakers and should have plays designed for them so they can make something happen. Heck I would have liked to seen a WR screen to Green yesterday too. The commentators even commented on how strong Green was with his stiff arm on Haden on the PI call.

Dalton didn't make good decisions ALL day long he almost threw a pick 6 to Joe Haden when he tried to force a TD pass into Green at the pylon. I also seriously doubt that it would be the rest of the offense holding Gruden back from installing more plays. Dalton was Kitna like productive with his low 5.4 yards per completion average. The largest reason for that, was his high number of checkdown passes. Problem is, when they are checkdown passes there is usually no RaC versus a designed play where a receiver has some blocking for them. Just say'n.

The key is designing plays where the check-down is the intended target, such as a screen or a TE slant. Those are the plays where the mismatch has to be leveraged. That happened often, when the LB was over Gresham or when a DE shadowed the RB out of the backfield, but they still threw to the primary, which was being covered by Haden like 90% of the time. The only underneath, deisnged play that I saw was the pass to Leonard, where he got good YAC. Check that. There were several but none that made great yardage.

Let's see how Andy's hand is mid-week. If it is at all in question, just start Gradkowki. We don't need to prematurely expose Andy to playing when he's not 100%. There's simply no upisde to it.

[Spor_tees]

I just could not understand why Dalton would throw at Haden so much. I thought it might change when Gradkowski came in the game, but he threw at him even more! Who is covering who should be a pre-snap read along with the type of coverage. I hope this stuff starts to become more automatic top these guys early in the season when they face the weakest part of the schedule.

One play I would really like to see the Bengals do is the double screen where half the guys screen to the right with the TE and the other half screen to the left with the RB. The QB fakes a throw to the left and throws back left. They have great makeup to have this work for significant yardage.

[HoosierCat]

I just could not understand why Dalton would throw at Haden so much. I thought it might change when Gradkowski came in the game, but he threw at him even more! Who is covering who should be a pre-snap read along with the type of coverage. I hope this stuff starts to become more automatic top these guys early in the season when they face the weakest part of the schedule.

Let me suggest an alternate theory: the Bengals didn't give s**t about Haden. Not. A. s**t.

Wasn't this a topic of conversation during the offseason/lockout? That the Bengals offense no longer tried to impose its will on the defense? That it was a reactive, take-what-they're-giving affair? That instead of challenging an opponent, they tried to finesse their way down the field, audibling so much they got delay and false start penalties as they tried to get the perfect play call based on defense and personnel? That sometimes you just have to pound the rock even if they're stacking the box, etc.?

I, for one, like it.

[volcom69]

It was the first game, i think i will give it some time to judge the offense. Each week i think we will see something new with the offense and Dalton growing with it, which im excited for. Was it perfect, heck no it wasnt but it was enough to get a win. Remember the first quarter the o-line was blocking great Andy looked comfortable back there, the 2nd quarter the o-line kind of went backwards, and didnt look as good giving up like 3 sacks. So o-line needs to block consistant and i think Andy will be good.

Anybody else want to see Andy get out of the pocket more, being able to pass on the run, or even run if he needs to. For me he seems to look pretty good outside the pocket, Lap said at college he did a much better job throwing outside the pocket.

[Spor_tees]

Anybody else want to see Andy get out of the pocket more, being able to pass on the run, or even run if he needs to. For me he seems to look pretty good outside the pocket, Lap said at college he did a much better job throwing outside the pocket.

I made a suggestion about this in another thread when the Bengals dropped LeFevour and picked up Zac Robinson. All three QBs seem to be good on their feet and more than adequate throwing on the run. Roll outs, moving the pocket, and run/pass option plays are all part of a West Coast offense. Originally San Fransisco was credited with designing the run/pass option play for the QB, but it was actually first used by Ken Anderson when Bill Walsh was the offensive coordinator in Cincinnati.

Secondly, come on Hoosier, there is a huge difference between enforcing your will on the other team and throwing at their best cover guy repeatedly. Honestly they threw the ball at Joe Haden so much I can't even tell you what the other corner's name was. I can tell you what it should have been...'Toast.' Then again maybe Jerome Simpson is still so aweful that the QBs have no faith in him? If so then it's time to cut dead weight and move on.

[derekshank]

Why do I complain about how a guy is getting the ball even if it is a checkdown? Because those guys (Gresham, Shipley, and Leonard...throw in Bernard Scott for that matter) are playmakers and should have plays designed for them so they can make something happen.

Green isn't a playmaker? Seems like your problem with Gruden's playcalling is that they have too many weapons to design plays for. There's only one ball. Not everybody is going to have awesome stats every game. Especially when Benson is getting the ball 20+ times.

And that's the right decision. Not everyone has to have multiple catches a game to win. But there are going to be mismatches regularly. I don't care who the play is designed for... throw it to the guy who is open.

Dalton didn't make good decisions ALL day long he almost threw a pick 6 to Joe Haden when he tried to force a TD pass into Green at the pylon.

A little nitpicky, aren't we?

First of all... it wasn't really close to being a pick-6. Hayden only got one hand over to knock it down, and it was a great play just to do that. But even if it was a "bad decision" that's one pass out of 15. Seriously... temper your expectations a tad.

Hayden played great most of the game. I don't think Dalton and Gradkowski made bad decisions nearly as much as Hayden played one hell of a game. Generally speaking, when you have Green in one-on-one, that's where you go with the ball. Give the QB a break... and give Hayden some props.

[Spor_tees]

Why do I complain about how a guy is getting the ball even if it is a checkdown? Because those guys (Gresham, Shipley, and Leonard...throw in Bernard Scott for that matter) are playmakers and should have plays designed for them so they can make something happen.

Green isn't a playmaker? Seems like your problem with Gruden's playcalling is that they have too many weapons to design plays for. There's only one ball. Not everybody is going to have awesome stats every game. Especially when Benson is getting the ball 20+ times.

And that's the right decision. Not everyone has to have multiple catches a game to win. But there are going to be mismatches regularly. I don't care who the play is designed for... throw it to the guy who is open.

Dalton didn't make good decisions ALL day long he almost threw a pick 6 to Joe Haden when he tried to force a TD pass into Green at the pylon.

A little nitpicky, aren't we?

First of all... it wasn't really close to being a pick-6. Hayden only got one hand over to knock it down, and it was a great play just to do that. But even if it was a "bad decision" that's one pass out of 15. Seriously... temper your expectations a tad.

Hayden played great most of the game. I don't think Dalton and Gradkowski made bad decisions nearly as much as Hayden played one hell of a game. Generally speaking, when you have Green in one-on-one, that's where you go with the ball. Give the QB a break... and give Hayden some props.

Derek shame on you! You lost ALL credibility in this argument when you just quoted me and left out part of the quote. Then you went on to ask me why I left Green out when in fact I didn't! Here is the sentence you left out:

Heck I would have liked to seen a WR screen to Green yesterday too.

I don't know why some of you guys continue to argue that there isn't enough balls to go around. Peyton doesn't seem to have a problem hitting Garcon, Reggie Wayne, Austin Collie, Dallas Clark, and Addai does he? How about those stacked Cowboys that has Irvin, Emmitt Smith, Jay Novachek, Moose Johnston, and Alvin Harper? Successful teams are able to spread the ball around, that's a fact.

[derekshank]

Derek shame on you! You lost ALL credibility in this argument when you just quoted me and left out part of the quote.

Did I? Because initially I was going to make fun of you for arguing against yourself with that quote. Complaining about the other guys not getting targets (essentially saying Green was being targeted too much), then saying that you wanted Green to get more targets.

I thought I was being nice by not pointing out the inconsistency there. I guess not. So I'll say it now. You're not making sense.

You say you are ok with a 60/40 ratio of running to passing... but you continue to bitch about the passing game that was productive. You say the TE is not getting enough plays... when he caught 6 f**king passes and a TD. You say that Dalton's decision making was questionable, when it wasn't.

Regardless, I'm done arguing with you. The truth is, you want to find something to bitch about. So go ahead. People did in '09... then they got what they wanted last year... and it sucked.

In other words, Bengal fans like you deserve the s**tty product you get.

*end rant*

[Spor_tees]

*Sigh* There is a huge difference in targeting Green with down the field passes when he is covered by Joe Haden, than throwing a WR screen. Like I have said at least three times now, it's not the mix of pass and run plays used as much as it was the TYPE of pass plays used. You can continue to go off the first half stats for Dalton but you can't guarantee that the Browns wouldn't have made halftime adjustments just the same against him as they did Gradkowski. Wouldn't you say that after the Browns saw a half of the Bengals offense that it put Gradkowski at a disadvantage?

You continue to take everything out of context. I said it wasn't the number of times Gresham got the ball, but the situations he did. I guarantee his RaC was horrible, when instead if he had plays targeted to him, he would have made some big plays.

Another comment you made that is strictly an assumption, just because I said they threw at Joe Haden too much, doesn't mean that I think they targeted Green too much. Haden covered other guys during the game, not just Green.

There is no point in arguing with you if you are going to sift through posts and pick pieces to use in your favor, nor taking the whole argument in context.

[derekshank]

There is no point in arguing with you if you are going to sift through posts and pick pieces to use in your favor, nor taking the whole argument in context.

Dude... you complain about the offense and whine about how they don't look like GB, Philly, Indianapolis, and the Cowboys of the 90's.

Take a step back and think about what you're complaining about. It's unrealistic. Dalton played immeasurably better than even Bengal fans expected... let alone unbiased observers and analysts.

Your reaction? Bitch bitch bitch.

[w8th]

What team in the NFL runs a "true" 80's style WCO today??

Or maybe I should say: What team would you like the Bengals to pattern there offense after?

[Spor_tees]

There is no point in arguing with you if you are going to sift through posts and pick pieces to use in your favor, nor taking the whole argument in context.

Dude... you complain about the offense and whine about how they don't look like GB, Philly, Indianapolis, and the Cowboys of the 90's.

Take a step back and think about what you're complaining about. It's unrealistic. Dalton played immeasurably better than even Bengal fans expected... let alone unbiased observers and analysts.

Your reaction? Bitch bitch bitch.

See this whole post proves my point. You are arguing about the final outcome of how the players did, whereas I am talking about the scheme they are playing. It has nothing to do with the final outcome or execution, it's about where they start from, and that lays strictly on the coaches. Not once have I said I am unhappy about what the players did (aside from throwing at Joe Haden all the time), I have only been asking why they are not using the system we were led to believe they would use, and to question about how much better the team would be. That's it...simple and to the point.

[derekshank]

I have only been asking why they are not using the system we were led to believe they would use, and to question about how much better the team would be.

Bitch bitch bitch.

Gruden said his offense would be predicated on running the ball between the tackles, not throwing the ball around the yard.

That's what I saw... and it was good.

[Spor_tees]

I have only been asking why they are not using the system we were led to believe they would use, and to question about how much better the team would be.

Bitch bitch bitch.

Gruden said his offense would be predicated on running the ball between the tackles, not throwing the ball around the yard.

That's what I saw... and it was good.

Once again, I have gone on record as saying I have nothing against the running game and the percentage of runs to passes. In fact I think there should have been a larger discrepancy, I only disagree with the types of pass plays that were run, making the point that players talents could have been better utilized. I do hope that Bernard Scott starts to get more touches because I would hate to see Benson get worn down too early in the season. A 20/10 ratio of carries for Benson and Scott should be ideal.

Of coarse don't take my word for it, go argue with guys like Bill Walsh (well you can't), Mike Holmgren, or many of the other coaches in the NFL that use the system effectively.

And if you think what you saw on the field Sunday was good, then be prepared to be very disappointed the rest of the season, because the Browns handed the game gift wrapped to the Bengals. They are going to need to play better in order to win more games this year...and I am sure they know that as much as some of us do.

[derekshank]

Once again, I have gone on record as saying I have nothing against the running game and the percentage of runs to passes.

This is essentially where we disagree. You can't have an offense that is built to run between the tackles, but still have Shipley on the field for large portions of the game, or Gresham moving around and lining up wide trying to find mismatches. That's what the Bengals did last year. It doesn't work.

Look at the examples you've given. Green Bay, Philadelphia, Indianapolis... none of these teams run well between the tackles. They throw the ball around the yard all day long. The running game suffers. You can't have it both ways.

If they are going to run the ball, they need to commit to it. They did that yesterday, and I'm not only pleased with the attitude and mentality... I'm quite pleased with the results.

And if you think what you saw on the field Sunday was good, then be prepared to be very disappointed the rest of the season, because the Browns handed the game gift wrapped to the Bengals.

I think you know what I'm going to say... right?

Bitch, bitch, bitch.

[membengal]

It's just so f**kin' tedious, the bitching.

[Spor_tees]

What team in the NFL runs a "true" 80's style WCO today??

Or maybe I should say: What team would you like the Bengals to pattern there offense after?

I think the 90's Cowboys would fit them best. If you compare the players between the two teams I think it would have great results. The Cowboys also ran the ball pretty effectively while still keeping the defense honest with short pass plays to the TE and FB, and long passes over the top to speedy athletic receivers.

[membengal]

Seriously, I don't get this.

They had NO offseason. None. They have put in the framework for a new offense in one training camp. With a rookie QB. And three other rookies playing a prominent role.

There is no reasonable expectation that would look at game 1 of what is going to be a lengthy work in progress and bitch. And don't lecture me or anyone on here about "long seasons". God knows we've all seen our share. And from the predictions thread, we are steeled for another one. But this year is about progress. And for their first time out, there is precious little to truly panty-bunch about. And for damn sure, that includes the offense not being west-coasty enough. After approximately no more than 20 practices.

What, yathink doctor?

[Spor_tees]

Seriously, I don't get this.

They had NO offseason. None. They have put in the framework for a new offense in one training camp. With a rookie QB. And three other rookies playing a prominent role.

There is no reasonable expectation that would look at game 1 of what is going to be a lengthy work in progress and bitch. And don't lecture me or anyone on here about "long seasons". God knows we've all seen our share. And from the predictions thread, we are steeled for another one. But this year is about progress. And for their first time out, there is precious little to truly panty-bunch about. And for damn sure, that includes the offense not being west-coasty enough. After approximately no more than 20 practices.

What, yathink doctor?

So you are saying as fans we are just supposed to sit back and glamorize what happened Sunday withtout looking forward? Now THAT is what I call unreasonable. These players have had their playbooks since the draft. Remember when the lockout was lifted for a weekend and the teams were allowed contact with players for a few days? I know it's not the same as practice but many of the players conducted their own offseason workouts using the playbooks that were given to them. These guys are professionals and that is why so much is expected of them. They had 4 preseason games as well. Imagine what Kerry Collins dealt with, he was sitting on his couch 2 weeks ago and now he is the starting QB of the Colts. Now him going out and putting up Peyton Manning numbers would be unreasonable.

This is not a 'panty-bunching' 'bitchfest' that a couple of you guys are proclaiming. It is simply a thread about what I didn't see Sunday and what I hope the offense starts to use. That's it...plain and simple.

[membengal]

Who the f**k is glamorizing anything?

I mostly see you in pissing up a rope.

Per usual.