Andy Dalton or Bust

[HairOnFire]

I just want to see this organization turn the page on Carson (and Chad if I had my choice) and do what needs to be done to move on from there.

Nutshelled for me ?? I'll take a 4-9 win season and not look back.

I wonder.

Consider this incredibly realistic what-if. Palmer sits out the season. Thus, the Bengals start Dalton immediately, in part because they believe they can get away with something that few teams in NFL history have ever managed to do. That being, win or compete at an acceptable level while hiding their starting QB. But of course the Bengals can't actually manage the trick, and like most teams who find themselves in their position, they struggle to win more than a handful of low scoring defensive struggles. As for Dalton, he manages to flash from time to time but produces only modest stats and a few worries about lost confidence. Worse, as Dalton struggles to find his way the ripple effect spreads outward and impacts all of the other young players the Bengals are attempting to develope. Poor timing leads to missed opportunities. Simplified gameplans lead to slower development everywhere. Improper blocking calls lead to blown plays and blown up players. Or maybe the Bengals players simply wilt from the intense media spotlight again...(rimshot!)....and stumble to another soul crushing 4 or 5 win season that for a million reasons doesn't manage to answer many of the questions now surrounding this team.

Still with me?

And then, shortly after the season comes to a merciful ending, Palmer announces from slightly bended knee that all is forgiven, his competitve fire is rekindled, his energy level has returned, and all he thinks about when he wakes up in the morning is rejoining his old teammates, beating the Steelers, and winning a championship. And just for giggles, let's say he begs Bengal fans to forgive him and give him another chance. And for a few giggles more, let's imagine Palmer's wife has developed a new appreciation for the subtle strategy that makes up the game of cornhole, and as a result has a newfound respect for the people who call Cincinnati home.

Would Carson still be dead to you?

Or put slightly different, if Dalton developes slowly would you be willing to embrace another non-competitive 4 or 5 win season after enduring the one that's coming. Or would you look for other more experienced options?

If your answer is YES then my question for you is....why wouldn't you attempt to make that type of move now? In fact, isn't the addition of a veteran QB exactly the type of move that desperately needs to be attempted now, later, and as often as needed?

[membengal]

Hoosier's position on this mirrors my own. I am not late to this and have been advocating it since dalton was drafted. Frankly, I was advocating it prior to them drafting the quitter's replacement as I was assuming they would draft a qb early and the labor strife makes a vet stopgap even more unsatisfactory than usual.

[HairOnFire]

Hoosier's position on this mirrors my own. I am not late to this and have been advocating it since dalton was drafted. Frankly, I was advocating it prior to them drafting the quitter's replacement as I was assuming they would draft a qb early and the labor strife makes a vet stopgap even more unsatisfactory than usual.

Well, I prefer a veteran stopgap be added, and I'd love to see RunPee dumped by the curb as well. But why quibble? After all, under the best case scenario now being "advocated" this team is likely to win a half dozen games or less, and would need a minor miracle to finish higher than 3rd place in the division. Thus, Hoosier's core argument for starting Dalton is based upon two things. First, the idea that Dalton's development trumps all other concerns...including the development of all other players. And last but not least, the mostly unfounded hope and belief that Andy Dalton is capable of winning football games as often as the proven losers now available in FA.

Faint praise indeed.

[HairOnFire]

Is Jordan Palmer the answer? I doubt it -- but let's find out. Does Andy Dalton have the chops for the NFL game? Let's find out.

Again, I'd say the odds are pretty freaking good that this team could start either player all season long and at seasons end still find itself unable to say for certain whether either player has a future as an NFL starter.

Just wait.

Frankly, the best argument in favor of Andy Dalton being named the starting QB immediately, without any competition whatsoever, is based soley upon the Bengals need to fill an empty uniform.

[BengalByTheBay]

Is Jordan Palmer the answer? I doubt it -- but let's find out. Does Andy Dalton have the chops for the NFL game? Let's find out.

Again, I'd say the odds are pretty freaking good that this team could start either player all season long and at seasons end still find itself unable to say for certain whether either player has a future as an NFL starter.

Just wait.

Frankly, the best argument in favor of Andy Dalton being named the starting QB immediately, without any competition whatsoever, is based soley upon the Bengals need to fill an empty uniform.

For what, very little, it is worth I agree that a veteran is the better move for a game 1 starter this season. I would leave it open whether Dalton gets a shot beginning mid-season. That said, I understand the resistance to an outside vet and well remember why. Moving past bad memories, however, there doesn't appear to be a whole log available at QB for the Bengals to fill that uniform with. Personally, I would be in favor of McNabb if he could be signed for a year or 2. I know people hate him, but I think he could legitimately step in for the season. Beyond that, I'm not sure who else I'd look seriously at and - as noted - I'm not all that thrilled with the McNabb idea.

[HoosierCat]

Thus, Hoosier's core argument for starting Dalton is based upon two things. First, the idea that Dalton's development trumps all other concerns...including the development of all other players.

As it should.

And last but not least, the mostly unfounded hope and belief that Andy Dalton is capable of winning football games as often as the proven losers now available in FA.

No. The proven losers may indeed win a few more games than Dalton. But it won't be enough to matter. 8 wins with Gradkowski vs. 6 with Dalton? I'll take Dalton and the better pick next April.

[membengal]

This season was "lost" about one second after Carson Palmer quit. The question became what to do to prepare the team to move forward, and given the quitter's exquisite timing in pulling this stunt on top of a labor stoppage, the Bengals did the best they could.

Even if one had wanted Palmer's demand granted, it couldn't happen due to the trade freeze. A veteran free agent, if one had wanted to go that route (and I didn't, but I understand why those who advocate for it would have wanted it), wasn't really possible because, no free agency. And, given the switch to a new offense, something we all wanted, I feel safe in saying, with no Brat, a vet free agent starts from the same point as a draft pick would.

Given all that, starting Dalton, assuming there are no hiccups getting him to a theoretical training camp, is the most rational thing this team can do. Especially if Dalton is as leader-iffic as he is supposed to be. And especially if this offense really does mirror what he was running in college.

So, yeah, Dalton, please. Out of the options that the quitter forced this team into, it is the best one from where I sit. And if all those options seem less than ideal? Well, that is on the quitter. And the quitter solely.

[HoosierCat]

This season was "lost" about one second after Carson Palmer quit.

Even if Palmer hadn't quit, the Bengals were probably doomed anyway. Ask yourself what the team would look like if Carson had decided to just stay quiet and collect a paycheck. I think two things are certain: Bob Bratkowski is still the OC and no one is talking about cutting or trading Chad. The team's pre-quit strategy was "continuity," the idea being that teams with the fewest changes would be best-positioned after the lockout.

In short, right now we'd be staring down the barrel of SSDY. And all that produced over a decade of games is two winning seasons and two losing playoff appearances. Even with the "easy" schedule, does anyone really think the results would have been any different in 2011?

Instead, we're getting a lot of what everybody was screaming for last year, right? A new OC, Chad on the way out (per conventional wisdom, at least), and a run-first (or at least balanced) philosophy that better matches the o-line's skills. They may not win many games, but I think we can all agree that the change in direction is welcome.

[ArmyBengal]

I just want to see this organization turn the page on Carson (and Chad if I had my choice) and do what needs to be done to move on from there.

Nutshelled for me ?? I'll take a 4-9 win season and not look back.

I wonder.

Consider this incredibly realistic what-if. Palmer sits out the season. Thus, the Bengals start Dalton immediately, in part because they believe they can get away with something that few teams in NFL history have ever managed to do. That being, win or compete at an acceptable level while hiding their starting QB. But of course the Bengals can't actually manage the trick, and like most teams who find themselves in their position, they struggle to win more than a handful of low scoring defensive struggles. As for Dalton, he manages to flash from time to time but produces only modest stats and a few worries about lost confidence. Worse, as Dalton struggles to find his way the ripple effect spreads outward and impacts all of the other young players the Bengals are attempting to develope. Poor timing leads to missed opportunities. Simplified gameplans lead to slower development everywhere. Improper blocking calls lead to blown plays and blown up players. Or maybe the Bengals players simply wilt from the intense media spotlight again...(rimshot!)....and stumble to another soul crushing 4 or 5 win season that for a million reasons doesn't manage to answer many of the questions now surrounding this team.

Still with me?

And then, shortly after the season comes to a merciful ending, Palmer announces from slightly bended knee that all is forgiven, his competitve fire is rekindled, his energy level has returned, and all he thinks about when he wakes up in the morning is rejoining his old teammates, beating the Steelers, and winning a championship. And just for giggles, let's say he begs Bengal fans to forgive him and give him another chance. And for a few giggles more, let's imagine Palmer's wife has developed a new appreciation for the subtle strategy that makes up the game of cornhole, and as a result has a newfound respect for the people who call Cincinnati home.

Would Carson still be dead to you?

Or put slightly different, if Dalton developes slowly would you be willing to embrace another non-competitive 4 or 5 win season after enduring the one that's coming. Or would you look for other more experienced options?

If your answer is YES then my question for you is....why wouldn't you attempt to make that type of move now? In fact, isn't the addition of a veteran QB exactly the type of move that desperately needs to be attempted now, later, and as often as needed?

Oh, where to start Hair ??

Ok, at the top. I've taken beatings in the past for presenting hypothetical situations around here and what ifs that may never come to pass. Some did, some didn't, but such is life. If i'm answering your scenario, it's quite easy. NOTHING Carson could do would make me welcome him back on the team. He's no better than Chad in my mind. The minute Chad went on his tirade, he was done with me. Sure, in the scenario he came back and the organization felt it best he were to start, I would cheer when something went right, just as I have with Chad. Those things going right don't make me hate him any less. I think you might have been the first person talk about cheering for the laundry and that would fit there, although I use to cheer for both of those players personally.

Moving on, I would be willing to embrace the organization moving in a positive direction and if that means they view Dalton as the future after a 5 win season and build a team around him with the o-line, I would be overjoyed. Meaning, make the call and take care of him. No more 7th round hopefuls, no more UDFA's, no more wing and a prayer FA's protecting the player you expect to win at the QB position. It's something I really don't think they ever truly did for Palmer. I'll go a step further and say that outside of JJoe, the next place I would LOVE to see this team spend FA dollars is at the Guard position. Boling is a rookie and B. Williams is older and on the last year of his contract. There are Guards to be had in FA that would improve Dalton's chances.

As to adding a vet QB, sure, I would love nothing more than to see them get improvement at the position and hope they do. The thing I continue to ask is, outside of simple improvement, who is the vet QB that is going to come in here and lead this team to the playoffs in 2011 ?? Call the Bengals schedule easy for 2011 and I will ask, do you know two teams that have an easier schedule than the Bengals ?? You guessed it, the Steelers and Ravens. I think just about anyway you slice it, we are a 3rd place team at best for 2011. That being the case, why not Dalton ?? Someone mentioned if Dalton gets you 4 or 5 wins, who cares if Sorgi or Gradkowski gets you 6 or 7 ??

I will certainly agree to upgrading the QB position as frequently as possible.

[membengal]

I don't have a problem turning the page. And I had this season as "lost" even if palmer wasn't a quitter. But, in theory, a palmer actually trying with some of the youngsters might have given some hope. As it stand, I am more than happy to turn that page.

[7/11]

dalton is one of the few rookie QBs to come out in the last 5 years that is prepared to start, even for us.

his mental makeup is tremendous and he appears to be unflappable. the only thing that can crush this kid's spirit is mike brown- just a matter of time...

[ct_bengal]

the reason the steelers and ravens schedules are rated easier is because they play the bengals....handle business in the divison and they may as well post a winning record. The bengals d matches up well with the ravens (with joseph), and i remember winning on 5 fieldgoals and a special teams touchdown in 2009 gainst the steelers(2nd game), so it can be done with a minimal showing of offense.

[HoosierCat]

the reason the steelers and ravens schedules are rated easier is because they play the bengals

Actually, it has little to do with us. Pitt and Cincy have the same strength of schedule. The "easy" sked is a matter of all the other crappy teams they both play in the AFC South and NFC West, which combined had 1 team with a winning record last year (Indy).

Both Balti and Pitt went 12-4 last season with a much tougher road. They should go through this season like crap through the proverbial goose, especially after the lockout. The Bengals, meanwhile, haven't won more than 11 games in a single season since 1988. Even if they matched 2005's 11-5 record, their best showing in the last two decades, I don't think that gets them better than 3rd in the AFCN and maybe a wild card this year.

[walzav29]

Favre. The team won the division in 09. Since then the Bengals have had 2 great drafts. The team is loaded. Sign Favre, and get Dalton ready for 2012. Warner, Hasselbeck, and Rodgers all sat behind Favre and it worked out for them. The number is still available. I am prepared for my beating people, and I thought it was funny a week ago. BUT he's better than Palmer, and knows the West Coast. The defense will be muched improved with Rey in the middle and more seasoning for Atkins, Johnson, and Dunlap.

[ct_bengal]

the reason the steelers and ravens schedules are rated easier is because they play the bengals

Actually, it has little to do with us. Pitt and Cincy have the same strength of schedule. The "easy" sked is a matter of all the other crappy teams they both play in the AFC South and NFC West, which combined had 1 team with a winning record last year (Indy).

Both Balti and Pitt went 12-4 last season with a much tougher road. They should go through this season like crap through the proverbial goose, especially after the lockout. The Bengals, meanwhile, haven't won more than 11 games in a single season since 1988. Even if they matched 2005's 11-5 record, their best showing in the last two decades, I don't think that gets them better than 3rd in the AFCN and maybe a wild card this year.

but if the bengals win 4 of their should be games last year, then pitts schedule is rated more difficult (x2 against 8-8 team instead of 4-12)

so really it comes down to divisional play, at least i believe so...that is ofcourse if they win the games they are supposed to win.

[ArmyBengal]

Maybe I should have specified.

I can certainly name QB's that are out there that could give us a better chance at winning, however, naming one that can give a better chance at winning and actually has a realistic shot of wanting to play in Cincinnati or you have heard the organization or ANYONE else for that matter discuss is another chore.

For what it's worth, if the thought is having someone give a better chance at winning while letting Dalton sit, why not give up a 5th rounder for Orton in Denver ??

People don't care for him, but he has put up good numbers in Denver and would have toys to play with here on offense and a renewed faith in a running game.

That being said, he wouldn't get us to the playoffs, so i'm back to square one and my original thought of Dalton.

[Sea Ray]

While we're looking at possible scenarios for 2011, how 'bout one where Dalton plays well enough that it puts Palmer's recent play into perspective...in that we all realize he wasn't giving us much. What if we play Dalton and after we tally up the season we say, "you know what, I don't think we would have done much better with the 30 yr old verson of CP." I think his play has really been crap for us and we're going to see how they do with a very green rookie. This may in fact hurt his trade value but thems the breaks.

They won 4 games in a year going in where the consensus was this is CP's year to put up or shut up. He has the toys; no excuses. How many wins would they have had with Dalton last year? Hard to fathom they'd do much worse than 4

[HoosierCat]

It seems Quan Cosby was on Lance's show yesterday and had some comments re the O, Dalton & Carson:

New offense: "I'm still on the basics. As a team we wouldn't be behind the 8-ball we would be behind the beach ball. To say we have a lot of things to address would be a major understatement."

More on offense: "It's very similar to what we ran at Texas...tossing it around...some deep balls...but a lot of concepts. I think I can fit in very well."

Impressions of Andy Dalton: "I'm very impressed. He's a rookie and he's taught me a lot about the offense. He ran it at TCU. I credit our scouts for going after a guy that knows Jay Gruden's offense. I'm pumped about the possibilities of him going (starting) early this year.

If he believes Carson is done as QB in Cincinnati?: "There is no belief to it. I'm 100% sure. It's unfortunate. He made his statement. Being a guy of his character he's going to stick to it. He will be crucified no matter what, but he can't go back on his word now". (PS...Quan and Carson have same agent/David Dunn)

Linky: http://www.espn1530.com/pages/lancesBlog.html#ixzz1S6qKeCuC

[volcom69]

It seems Quan Cosby was on Lance's show yesterday and had some comments re the O, Dalton & Carson:

New offense: "I'm still on the basics. As a team we wouldn't be behind the 8-ball we would be behind the beach ball. To say we have a lot of things to address would be a major understatement."

More on offense: "It's very similar to what we ran at Texas...tossing it around...some deep balls...but a lot of concepts. I think I can fit in very well."

Impressions of Andy Dalton: "I'm very impressed. He's a rookie and he's taught me a lot about the offense. He ran it at TCU. I credit our scouts for going after a guy that knows Jay Gruden's offense. I'm pumped about the possibilities of him going (starting) early this year.

If he believes Carson is done as QB in Cincinnati?: "There is no belief to it. I'm 100% sure. It's unfortunate. He made his statement. Being a guy of his character he's going to stick to it. He will be crucified no matter what, but he can't go back on his word now". (PS...Quan and Carson have same agent/David Dunn)

Linky: http://www.espn1530.com/pages/lancesBlog.html#ixzz1S6qKeCuC

Good, goodbye Carson, i wouldnt want him near this team anyways. Like others said, if they are only going to win 4 games i would rather win 4 games with a rookie who is out there busting his butt because he wants to be here, then a quitter like Palmer!!!

I truly believe that Dalton will be a great QB in Jays system, this year he may struggle some, but he can only go up in my mind. I started watching TCU football, because i enjoyed watching Dalton, so now im excited to watch him play Sundays, so please let him start and let him learn from his mistakes.

[BengalPimp]

dalton is one of the few rookie QBs to come out in the last 5 years that is prepared to start, even for us.

his mental makeup is tremendous and he appears to be unflappable. the only thing that can crush this kid's spirit is mike brown- just a matter of time...

Really? He's prepared to start because you like his "mental makeup" and he "appears to be unflappable"? Really?

The guy doesn't know the playbook, the system, has had NO PRACTICE TIME. no training camp, no rapport with WR's, TE's, or RB's, has NEVER faced an NFL Defense and came from a TCU program that played it's games against teams like Southern Methodist, UNLV, Wyoming, Air Force, Tennessee Tech, New Mexico, and Colorado State. I DARE YOU to find EVEN ONE player from those schools drafted and playing on an NFL Defense this season. This kid is gonna learn REAL QUICK the difference betweeen the Ravens, Steelers, etc and freakin Tennessee Tech........but hey, hey was "Unflappable" against 1-11 New Mexico....Who was the 1 team New Mexico beat you ask? Why it was 3-9 Wyoming (also on TCU's Schedule)

Prepared to start my ass, NO ROOKIE QB would have been "prepared to start" had there NOT been a lockout, let alone now.

As a Bengals fan I would like to see Dalton succeed, but I won't try to fool myself into thinking he is even remotely "ready" to start.

[membengal]

As opposed to, say, Jordan Palmer?

[ArmyBengal]

I'm still waiting for the other options.

I'm not saying there aren't, because I think there are, but I want to know some serious thought from the other perspective.

Oh yeah, don't forget realistic chances and capable of having a better outcome than Dalton.

Please don't say you would rather be 8-8 with Gradkowski than 5-11 with Dalton either.

That outcome will net you the same thing... Watching other teams in the playoffs.

I'll take Dalton and the higher draft pick, thank you.

So what FA QB is capable of getting the Bengals a better record than both the Steelers and/or Ravens and get us into the playoffs ??

[walzav29]

I bet the competition is better at TCU than what Ben faced at Miami OH and what Flacco faced at Deleware. The defense will have to play top 10, and run the ball with Cedric. There are so many weapons to throw to, I think he can do well. IF he gets in there asap.

[HairOnFire]

I'm still waiting for the other options.

Fair enough.

I'd like to play the field. So put me down for any of 'em. Or if you prefer, put me down for all of them. I'm in no position to bargain.

But let's be clear about something. All of this talk about starting Dalton immediately is fair game precisely because it IS a realistic option, and while it's not a choice I personally support....it's one I could accept without much complaint. Mostly because I'm painfully aware the Bengals find themselves in this position soley because a very highly compensated player has refused to honor the last FOUR years of his contract. I know who the bad guy is. I don't need to be reminded.

But moving forward, the whole "let's see what Jordon Palmer can do" rant is NOT an option for me. Because there's simply no way on Earth I'd even consider a scenario where I'd give an undeserved starting QB job, or even a roster spot, to the younger brother of the very player whose refusal to honor a contract has all but crippled this team.

Moving on? Can you imagine the national medias reaction to the sight of the "other Palmer" starting for the Bengals? Or try to imagine the way many Bengal fans would treat Jordan if he were named starter. If you ask me that's a fairly significant and important negative reaction that could easily be avoided simply by signing...(wait for it)...any other FA QB available. Only Jordan Palmer comes with the unwanted baggage of being seen and portrayed as a fake, an imposter, an inferior version of a once coveted genuine item.

Romeo/RunPee must die.

Or if you prefer, he should be allowed to leave without a contract offer being made....putting this team in the market for a replacement.

[HairOnFire]

I bet the competition is better at TCU than what Ben faced at Miami OH and what Flacco faced at Deleware. The defense will have to play top 10, and run the ball with Cedric. There are so many weapons to throw to, I think he can do well. IF he gets in there asap.

My problems aren't with Dalton himself. My problems are rooted in there being no competition for the starting role, no veteran QB with enough playing experience to mentor from the sidelines, and my belief that form the moment Carson Palmer made his demands Jordan Palmer could have no future role with THIS team.