What is with our team!

[combatbengal]

Seems that things never change in Cincy. Not sure if it's true but I heard that Boomer E. refuses to call our games! Let’s see, Dillion wanted out, left and got a SB ring. Spikes wanted out and left! J. smith wanted out and left! Chad wanted out a couple years ago. And now Palmer wants out. That has to tell you something. If people don't want to work for you, maybe you should take a step back and reevaluate your operations! Just saying!

I think Palmer is done so I’m not hurt about this at all. He spent all of last year throwing into double and triple coverage, wasted time outs to avoid delay of games, and got a tone of penalties for delay of game! But then, where do we go from there? There aren’t any FA that want to play for us! Our Back-ups, wait, we don’t have any! There aren’t any good prospects in the draft. Going to be a long season, if we even have one! Maybe we go old school and hold open tryouts! Let a local guy give it a shot!!

[walzav29]

Andrew Luck! But right now I would bet he would not play for Cincinnati. The Bengals have stinky lines around them right now.

[cincy9275]

Seems that things never change in Cincy. Not sure if it's true but I heard that Boomer E. refuses to call our games! Let’s see, Dillion wanted out, left and got a SB ring. Spikes wanted out and left! J. smith wanted out and left! Chad wanted out a couple years ago. And now Palmer wants out. That has to tell you something. If people don't want to work for you, maybe you should take a step back and reevaluate your operations! Just saying!

it is very simple, mike brown is the cause. the bottom line is more important that the win/loss record of the team. as long as fans keep lining his pockets it will stay the same.

[jonahdsage]

Everyone likes blaming mike brown (did we need another thread?) and Carson for last season. i just want to see some facts. When Carson throws a TD to andre caldwell in double coverage (or shipley for that matter) to win the game, we talk about the laser beam arm and how he put in the perfect spot. If he makes a similar throw and the receiver isn't running full speed or the ball gets tipped and picked, Carson is an idiot for throwing it into triple coverage. We can say that the bengals are poorly run because we've had two winning seasons in 20 years—but can we say that's because all mike brown cares about is lining his pockets? I don't think so. In the last few years:

zimmer got paid

marvin got extended

ced was extended

coles brought in (big $$ spent)

AB brought in (big $$ spent)

Odom brought in (big $$ spent)

draft picks signed on time (minus andre smith and it's looking like that contract was brilliant)

I could go on and I understand arguments against some of the above examples. I'm just saying I don't think the last few years really support the claim that Mike Brown only cares about lining his pockets. He himself has said the best way to fill the stadium is to win games. I don't care how greedy you are, have you ever met someone who enjoyed mediocrity? I honestly have no idea what the problem with the Bengals is. When Carson originally said he wanted out I was hoping for some explanation. I just have no idea why the Bengals lose so consistently regardless of personnel/coaching/money being spent.

[cincyhokie]

Everyone likes blaming mike brown (did we need another thread?) and Carson for last season. i just want to see some facts. When Carson throws a TD to andre caldwell in double coverage (or shipley for that matter) to win the game, we talk about the laser beam arm and how he put in the perfect spot. If he makes a similar throw and the receiver isn't running full speed or the ball gets tipped and picked, Carson is an idiot for throwing it into triple coverage. We can say that the bengals are poorly run because we've had two winning seasons in 20 years—but can we say that's because all mike brown cares about is lining his pockets? I don't think so. In the last few years:

zimmer got paid

marvin got extended

ced was extended

coles brought in (big $$ spent)

AB brought in (big $$ spent)

Odom brought in (big $$ spent)

draft picks signed on time (minus andre smith and it's looking like that contract was brilliant)

I could go on and I understand arguments against some of the above examples. I'm just saying I don't think the last few years really support the claim that Mike Brown only cares about lining his pockets. He himself has said the best way to fill the stadium is to win games. I don't care how greedy you are, have you ever met someone who enjoyed mediocrity? I honestly have no idea what the problem with the Bengals is. When Carson originally said he wanted out I was hoping for some explanation. I just have no idea why the Bengals lose so consistently regardless of personnel/coaching/money being spent.

I don't doubt the intent to win, I doubt the methodology. I don't like the avoidance of change. Hopefully, the success of Gruden can be the beginning of some sort of change.

[kingwilly]

Everyone likes blaming mike brown (did we need another thread?) and Carson for last season. i just want to see some facts. When Carson throws a TD to andre caldwell in double coverage (or shipley for that matter) to win the game, we talk about the laser beam arm and how he put in the perfect spot. Not me. It is his inconsistency that became the problem. Now we see his heart was not in it. If he makes a similar throw and the receiver isn't running full speed or the ball gets tipped and picked, Carson is an idiot for throwing it into triple coverage. We can say that the bengals are poorly run because we've had two winning seasons in 20 years—but can we say that's because all mike brown cares about is lining his pockets? I don't think so. In the last few years:

zimmer got paid - maybe one of two smart moves in 5 years.

marvin got extended - terrible move

ced was extended - just him coming here was a good move, will recognize that.

coles brought in (big $$ spent) - terrible move

AB brought in (big $$ spent) - terrible move, indicative of a cheap, poorly run medical staff

Odom brought in (big $$ spent) - apart from a fast start in 2009, he is a bust. TOrn Achilles and got a suspension...

draft picks signed on time (minus andre smith and it's looking like that contract was brilliant) - just the Smith selection alone is enough to get SoP fired somewhere else. Ask yourself this, could SoP get a job as an NFL General Manager anywhere in the league? No.

You've left off the point that they let Brat linger two seasons too long. That is bad management. That is classic SoP.

I could go on and I understand arguments against some of the above examples. I'm just saying I don't think the last few years really support the claim that Mike Brown only cares about lining his pockets. Well, when the results are contrary to the intention, then we are left asking these questions. When you notice their inability to overcome the perception that the culture of this team is a rflection of SoP and his miserly ways, nickel and diming the county, city, fans, and how he runs the team, what more prof do you need? He himself has said the best way to fill the stadium is to win games. I don't care how greedy you are, have you ever met someone who enjoyed mediocrity? Yes, I have, and to think the everyone out there, even NFL owners, are all hyper-competitive A-type personalities is silly. I honestly have no idea what the problem with the Bengals is. I do! SoP runs the team instead of hiring properly qualified NFL General Managers who are not tied to the business P/L of the team, so their only job is to build a winning team. When Carson originally said he wanted out I was hoping for some explanation. I just have no idea why the Bengals lose so consistently regardless of personnel/coaching/money being spent. Because they make the WRONG choices, more often than not. If simply spending the money meant you'd win, then Dallas and Washington would dominate. Not how it works.

[jonahdsage]

Everyone likes blaming mike brown (did we need another thread?) and Carson for last season. i just want to see some facts. When Carson throws a TD to andre caldwell in double coverage (or shipley for that matter) to win the game, we talk about the laser beam arm and how he put in the perfect spot. Not me. It is his inconsistency that became the problem. Now we see his heart was not in it. If he makes a similar throw and the receiver isn't running full speed or the ball gets tipped and picked, Carson is an idiot for throwing it into triple coverage. We can say that the bengals are poorly run because we've had two winning seasons in 20 years—but can we say that's because all mike brown cares about is lining his pockets? I don't think so. In the last few years:

zimmer got paid - maybe one of two smart moves in 5 years.

marvin got extended - terrible move

ced was extended - just him coming here was a good move, will recognize that.

coles brought in (big $$ spent) - terrible move

AB brought in (big $$ spent) - terrible move, indicative of a cheap, poorly run medical staff

Odom brought in (big $$ spent) - apart from a fast start in 2009, he is a bust. TOrn Achilles and got a suspension...

draft picks signed on time (minus andre smith and it's looking like that contract was brilliant) - just the Smith selection alone is enough to get SoP fired somewhere else. Ask yourself this, could SoP get a job as an NFL General Manager anywhere in the league? No.

You've left off the point that they let Brat linger two seasons too long. That is bad management. That is classic SoP.

I could go on and I understand arguments against some of the above examples. I'm just saying I don't think the last few years really support the claim that Mike Brown only cares about lining his pockets. Well, when the results are contrary to the intention, then we are left asking these questions. When you notice their inability to overcome the perception that the culture of this team is a rflection of SoP and his miserly ways, nickel and diming the county, city, fans, and how he runs the team, what more prof do you need? He himself has said the best way to fill the stadium is to win games. I don't care how greedy you are, have you ever met someone who enjoyed mediocrity? Yes, I have, and to think the everyone out there, even NFL owners, are all hyper-competitive A-type personalities is silly. I honestly have no idea what the problem with the Bengals is. I do! SoP runs the team instead of hiring properly qualified NFL General Managers who are not tied to the business P/L of the team, so their only job is to build a winning team. When Carson originally said he wanted out I was hoping for some explanation. I just have no idea why the Bengals lose so consistently regardless of personnel/coaching/money being spent. Because they make the WRONG choices, more often than not. If simply spending the money meant you'd win, then Dallas and Washington would dominate. Not how it works.

I agree with everything you're saying here. My point is simply that I don't think it's accurate to say Mike Brown is just an egomaniacal greedy old man who only wants to line his pockets. Old fashioned, stubborn, incompetent etc yeah fine. The laverneus coles/AB moves were awful, but the point is he paid 14 million to those dudes. That's serious coin.

I think I'm just tired of inconsistent fans and the party of line of "it's all because SoP only wants money!"

[cincyhokie]

Everyone likes blaming mike brown (did we need another thread?) and Carson for last season. i just want to see some facts. When Carson throws a TD to andre caldwell in double coverage (or shipley for that matter) to win the game, we talk about the laser beam arm and how he put in the perfect spot. Not me. It is his inconsistency that became the problem. Now we see his heart was not in it. If he makes a similar throw and the receiver isn't running full speed or the ball gets tipped and picked, Carson is an idiot for throwing it into triple coverage. We can say that the bengals are poorly run because we've had two winning seasons in 20 years—but can we say that's because all mike brown cares about is lining his pockets? I don't think so. In the last few years:

zimmer got paid - maybe one of two smart moves in 5 years.

marvin got extended - terrible move

ced was extended - just him coming here was a good move, will recognize that.

coles brought in (big $$ spent) - terrible move

AB brought in (big $$ spent) - terrible move, indicative of a cheap, poorly run medical staff

Odom brought in (big $$ spent) - apart from a fast start in 2009, he is a bust. TOrn Achilles and got a suspension...

draft picks signed on time (minus andre smith and it's looking like that contract was brilliant) - just the Smith selection alone is enough to get SoP fired somewhere else. Ask yourself this, could SoP get a job as an NFL General Manager anywhere in the league? No.

You've left off the point that they let Brat linger two seasons too long. That is bad management. That is classic SoP.

I could go on and I understand arguments against some of the above examples. I'm just saying I don't think the last few years really support the claim that Mike Brown only cares about lining his pockets. Well, when the results are contrary to the intention, then we are left asking these questions. When you notice their inability to overcome the perception that the culture of this team is a rflection of SoP and his miserly ways, nickel and diming the county, city, fans, and how he runs the team, what more prof do you need? He himself has said the best way to fill the stadium is to win games. I don't care how greedy you are, have you ever met someone who enjoyed mediocrity? Yes, I have, and to think the everyone out there, even NFL owners, are all hyper-competitive A-type personalities is silly. I honestly have no idea what the problem with the Bengals is. I do! SoP runs the team instead of hiring properly qualified NFL General Managers who are not tied to the business P/L of the team, so their only job is to build a winning team. When Carson originally said he wanted out I was hoping for some explanation. I just have no idea why the Bengals lose so consistently regardless of personnel/coaching/money being spent. Because they make the WRONG choices, more often than not. If simply spending the money meant you'd win, then Dallas and Washington would dominate. Not how it works.

I agree with everything you're saying here. My point is simply that I don't think it's accurate to say Mike Brown is just an egomaniacal greedy old man who only wants to line his pockets. Old fashioned, stubborn, incompetent etc yeah fine. The laverneus coles/AB moves were awful, but the point is he paid 14 million to those dudes. That's serious coin.

I think I'm just tired of inconsistent fans and the party of line of "it's all because SoP only wants money!"

All I want from Mike Brown is to spend money to treat his personality disorder. First thing is first.

[HoosierCat]

[beating dead horse]

Three years ago, I wrote this after yet another round of calls for the team to hire a GM.

As Michael Abromowitz points out, the real source of the Bengals’ woes is the entire Brown family. But with respect to Abromowitz, it’s not their ownership that’s the problem, but their presence in the front office.

In addition to Mike Brown (president), the key positions of senior vice president, player personnel and vice president, player personnel are held, respectively, by Pete and Paul Brown. Mike’s daughter Katie is an executive vice president, and together she, her father and her husband Troy Blackburn (also a vice president) form the group that currently serves as the team’s general manager.

The organization is also home to longtime Brown family friends, and their families, such as “scouting consultant” Bill Tobin and director of player personnel Duke Tobin.

It’s this “mom ‘n’ pop” structure that is the true impediment to change in Cincinnati, because it eliminates all front office accountability.

Who was responsible for the “language issues” in the trade agreement with Detroit for DT Shaun Rogers that stalled the deal long enough for Cleveland to swoop in and steal him away? In a normal organization, that kind of foul-up is a fireable offense. But since it was almost certainly a Brown family member overseeing the talks with Detroit…nothing happens.

Any team that has year after year after year of poor drafts would be expected to revamp its scouting and personnel departments. But since personnel in Cincinnati is run by Browns, and scouting done by family friends…nothing happens.

The lack of accountability in the front office leads to the lack of urgency reflected in Mike’s now-infamous “themes” address. With no one’s job on the line, there’s no particular impetus to “get it right this season.” For the Brown family, there’s a never-ending string of next years.

That was 2008. Now it's 2011 and it's "same as it ever was." Just with more draft busts (Skin Zeppelin) and FA fiascoes (Antonio Bryant, Terrell Owens) and lost seasons (2010) that no one is held accountable for. Until that changes, winning will continue to be an accidental occurrence in Cincinnati.

[/beating dead horse]

[COB]

Things don't always stay the same.

Mike let Marvin build a pretty good team in 2005.

But Mike's inability to guide a team through transition is handicapping this team like nothing else. Hanging onto Chad despite the Redskins' offer was a symptom. It's a combination of stubborness and hubris. I don't think he's overly greedy, when compared to other NFL owners.

I think he just wants to do things his own way so much, that a public outcry makes him dig his heels in all the more.

I've puzzled over his love affair with Chad. The only conclusion I can come to is that he sees a lot of himself in Chad. Chad is a selfish, selfish football player. And Mike is a selfish, selfish, owner. It's not money I'm talking about. It's just Mike and his selfish determination to do everything his way, and Chad's selfish determination to do things his way.

Mike tried to hang on to 2005 about 4 years too long.

[HairOnFire]

I see Hoosier has dusted off his silly yet treasured 3-headed hydra thread again. Sadly, I fear no good can come from this.

FWIW, one of the points Mike Lombardi danced around during yesterdays Total Access Bengal fugfest was how badly Palmer reacted to the criticism directed at him by the coaching staff at seasons end. Nutshelled, Lombardi claims there is a faction within the Bengals braintrust who were already debating moving on to a new QB even before Palmer demanded a trade. Their criticism of his play, voiced at seasons end, was said to be the very thing that prompted Palmer's remarks about the two sides divorcing. Lombardi further claimed that Palmer's loudest backer continues to be Mike Brown, and that Brown is convinced Palmer can not only be convinced to return, but can be made happy again. Until that opinion changes Brown is said to be adamant about not trading Palmer despite the willingness to do so by the other hydras swimming around the Bengals front office. (Pumpkie-hydra?)

Frankly, I admit it's thin stuff but it further strengthens my belief that Palmer's core complaint is with Marvin Lewis, not Mike Brown.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Lombardi further claimed that Palmer's loudest backer continues to be Mike Brown, and that Brown is convinced Palmer can not only be convinced to return, but can be made happy again.

Of course he is. He's our Redeemer.

Frankly, I admit it's thin stuff but it further strengthens my belief that Palmer's core complaint is with Marvin Lewis, not Mike Brown.

That may be true. I've suspected for a couple years that Palmer lacks a certain amount of self-criticism. His pressers always seem to involve him being calm and magnanimous in defeat, but I've never seen him analyze concrete lackings in his game. I will concede that.

However, this is only one datapoint. Taken in totality, it still adds to a long, painful list. Here's an interesting question - who's the last high-profile Bengal whose career didn't prominently display an attempt to force his way out of Cincinnati, or a high-profile war of words between himself and the franchise? The laundry list of disgruntled characters is rather long. Who's the last star who left on good terms?

[Horsemen]

I see Hoosier has dusted off his silly yet treasured 3-headed hydra thread again. Sadly, I fear no good can come from this.

FWIW, one of the points Mike Lombardi danced around during yesterdays Total Access Bengal fugfest was how badly Palmer reacted to the criticism directed at him by the coaching staff at seasons end. Nutshelled, Lombardi claims there is a faction within the Bengals braintrust who were already debating moving on to a new QB even before Palmer demanded a trade. Their criticism of his play, voiced at seasons end, was said to be the very thing that prompted Palmer's remarks about the two sides divorcing. Lombardi further claimed that Palmer's loudest backer continues to be Mike Brown, and that Brown is convinced Palmer can not only be convinced to return, but can be made happy again. Until that opinion changes Brown is said to be adamant about not trading Palmer despite the willingness to do so by the other hydras swimming around the Bengals front office. (Pumpkie-hydra?)

Frankly, I admit it's thin stuff but it further strengthens my belief that Palmer's core complaint is with Marvin Lewis, not Mike Brown.

It's interesting that all indications are there's a power struggle going on between the multiheaded hydra as we continue to hear the name Katie as well as rumblings that the F.O. isn't all on the same page. It keeps going back to Adam Shefters report back in early January when Giggles left about Katie being the one to bring him back to PBS and willing to compromise and make changes as SHE wants an organization like Pittsburgh that wins the division and is competing for the Superbowl yearly.

Everything keeps pointing in the direction of Mikey and Pumpkie not agreeing on the vision of this franchise.

[combatbengal]

For the record, I didn't start this threat to bash MB or put blame on anybody. I'm just saying we have the same issues year after year and nothings being done to change it. The players that spoke about wanted or want out because they see no change in the future. As for Palmer, Marvin and Mike aren't on the field during the game. They aren't making him to throw into double and triple coverage. They aren't telling him to take his time reading the def before the snap or wasting time outs to avoid delay of games. And so on..... I made this statement before and I stand by it. I am not a Big Ben fan, but he was suspended for four games and when he came in, he played like he hadn't missed a game or any time. Palmer on the other hand had all summer and training camp to get in synch with the WR's and he couldn't all season long! Palmer is done! Let's move on. The question is who do we replace him with?

[cincyhokie]

I see Hoosier has dusted off his silly yet treasured 3-headed hydra thread again. Sadly, I fear no good can come from this.

FWIW, one of the points Mike Lombardi danced around during yesterdays Total Access Bengal fugfest was how badly Palmer reacted to the criticism directed at him by the coaching staff at seasons end. Nutshelled, Lombardi claims there is a faction within the Bengals braintrust who were already debating moving on to a new QB even before Palmer demanded a trade. Their criticism of his play, voiced at seasons end, was said to be the very thing that prompted Palmer's remarks about the two sides divorcing. Lombardi further claimed that Palmer's loudest backer continues to be Mike Brown, and that Brown is convinced Palmer can not only be convinced to return, but can be made happy again. Until that opinion changes Brown is said to be adamant about not trading Palmer despite the willingness to do so by the other hydras swimming around the Bengals front office. (Pumpkie-hydra?)

Frankly, I admit it's thin stuff but it further strengthens my belief that Palmer's core complaint is with Marvin Lewis, not Mike Brown.

I agree. However, if Marvin Lewis is Palmer's problem, and that's likely, Mike Brown has to be a problem to some extent to because he brought Marvin back. So in the end, it's all the same.

[HoosierCat]

Point of order: since it bothers Hair so, I have removed the offending term from my post, since it had nothing to do with my point. Carry on.

[HairOnFire]

I agree. However, if Marvin Lewis is Palmer's problem, and that's likely, Mike Brown has to be a problem to some extent to because he brought Marvin back. So in the end, it's all the same.

It's not the same at all.

[HairOnFire]

Point of order: since it bothers Hair so, I have removed the offending term from my post, since it had nothing to do with my point. Carry on.

Drinking again?

Prior to the above response you had only written one post in this thread, the one about the 3-headed hydra, and to my knowledge that post contained no offending terms. Nor did it have a point as far as I can tell.

[cincy9275]

Everyone likes blaming mike brown (did we need another thread?) and Carson for last season. i just want to see some facts. When Carson throws a TD to andre caldwell in double coverage (or shipley for that matter) to win the game, we talk about the laser beam arm and how he put in the perfect spot. Not me. It is his inconsistency that became the problem. Now we see his heart was not in it. If he makes a similar throw and the receiver isn't running full speed or the ball gets tipped and picked, Carson is an idiot for throwing it into triple coverage. We can say that the bengals are poorly run because we've had two winning seasons in 20 yearsbut can we say that's because all mike brown cares about is lining his pockets? I don't think so. In the last few years:

zimmer got paid - maybe one of two smart moves in 5 years.

marvin got extended - terrible move

ced was extended - just him coming here was a good move, will recognize that.

coles brought in (big $$ spent) - terrible move

AB brought in (big $$ spent) - terrible move, indicative of a cheap, poorly run medical staff

Odom brought in (big $$ spent) - apart from a fast start in 2009, he is a bust. TOrn Achilles and got a suspension...

draft picks signed on time (minus andre smith and it's looking like that contract was brilliant) - just the Smith selection alone is enough to get SoP fired somewhere else. Ask yourself this, could SoP get a job as an NFL General Manager anywhere in the league? No.

You've left off the point that they let Brat linger two seasons too long. That is bad management. That is classic SoP.

I could go on and I understand arguments against some of the above examples. I'm just saying I don't think the last few years really support the claim that Mike Brown only cares about lining his pockets. Well, when the results are contrary to the intention, then we are left asking these questions. When you notice their inability to overcome the perception that the culture of this team is a rflection of SoP and his miserly ways, nickel and diming the county, city, fans, and how he runs the team, what more prof do you need? He himself has said the best way to fill the stadium is to win games. I don't care how greedy you are, have you ever met someone who enjoyed mediocrity? Yes, I have, and to think the everyone out there, even NFL owners, are all hyper-competitive A-type personalities is silly. I honestly have no idea what the problem with the Bengals is. I do! SoP runs the team instead of hiring properly qualified NFL General Managers who are not tied to the business P/L of the team, so their only job is to build a winning team. When Carson originally said he wanted out I was hoping for some explanation. I just have no idea why the Bengals lose so consistently regardless of personnel/coaching/money being spent. Because they make the WRONG choices, more often than not. If simply spending the money meant you'd win, then Dallas and Washington would dominate. Not how it works.

I agree with everything you're saying here. My point is simply that I don't think it's accurate to say Mike Brown is just an egomaniacal greedy old man who only wants to line his pockets. Old fashioned, stubborn, incompetent etc yeah fine. The laverneus coles/AB moves were awful, but the point is he paid 14 million to those dudes. That's serious coin.

I think I'm just tired of inconsistent fans and the party of line of "it's all because SoP only wants money!"

the fact mike brown paid that much for a has been and a injured player. a direct result of mike brown being a cheap ass. because he will not pay people necessary to make these decisions. he wants to scrape from the bottom of the barrel get lowest deal possible. despite the fact he making the money to so. so if the man has the means and to change it, still refuses to do it despite the consumers begging for it. then what is his purpose?