Carson Palmer Thread

[HoosierCat]

The whole issue with Carson is that there is no back-up plan.

On that note, Marvin raised the prospect today of (again, assuming there's eventually a CBA, etc.) trading a 2012 pick this year for a veteran stopgap QB. Given that would be in addition to a first or second round pick this year or next to try and find a long-term solution, I have to think that puts pressure on the team to deal Carson at some point; two picks is a high price to pay to "let him rot."

[F.Cleveland]

That's just it though, IF the offer were good enough, I believe there would be thought to a trade, but Brown has already said he doesn't think the value is there without so much as a phone call. He's saying that before ANYTHING with the CBA comes to an end (if it does). The media is already bashing the sh*t out of Mike Brown or maybe you miss the daily poking fun of our organization every time the situation is brought up.

The Eagles are listening to trades for Kolb without a CBA in place. Heck they have had offers of a first round pick and nothing is ironed out whatsoever. What makes this situation any different. It's the Eagles that are gauging the market for their player and once things are settled with the CBA, they will know exactly where they stand. The Bengals ?? Not so much...

I also disagree with the thought that there is zero chance the draft a QB at #4. The QB's they have brought in are all thought to go in the first round and unless they trade down, I believe that thought is very real considering how Mike Brown views not only the draft, but the QB position. These are all indicators and regardless that I think it would be the stupidest thing for them to do, the chances of it happening I would put at at least 50%.

I don't see what incentive Carson has to do anything when he has already put his back against the wall. You can't lead from the rear and I can't see any of the players wanting to following someone playing for himself and his chance to leave them.

I'm not saying this is exactly how things are going to play out, but rather what we've seen to this point and again, Mike Brown is being as crafty as Palmer is about not saying what the issue is and speaking for himself as opposed to hearing everything secondhand from his realtor, gardener, or childhood coach.

At this time of year you can't believe 90% of what you hear. People say they aren't going to fire someone or trade someone all the ime only to have the opposite happen the next day.

The Eagles can listen to offers for Kolb because they already have their starter. Kolb is the back-up plan and a luxury but they don't have to get rid of him if the price isn't right. Just because MB has said the opposite publicly doesn't mean he isn't having conversations with th other billionaires on the condition of secrecy.

The Panthers also said they are still considering Ryan Mallet with the #1 overall pick. Teams actively try to keep each other guessing so the other teams behind them don't know who they'll take. The BEngals will interview about 10 guys for one spot and they do so more than for their own draft prospects. This is a time to scout potential opponents as much as anything. The info on who is going where before the draft is extremely tainted and visits, pro-day appreances, and public comments all have to be taken in a skeptical context.

If Carson really wants to be traded, he has to understand we have to be better off without him for MB to want to do so. Carson's value is made up of himself (MB views him as a top 5, somewhat dominant QB) and the back-up plan a team forgioes when they have a franchise QB. To replace what Carson represents, I would argue the Bengals need to get at least a top ten 1st round pick and at least a 3rd to account for the developemental QB that we don't have because of him. I would even argue that on top of those two picks something else would have to be thrown in as profit. MB isn't going to give up a poor mans Brady or Mannning for simply value. He had what other teams spend years trying to find, a franchise QB. You have to overpay for someone like that. Ask yourself, what would it take to get the Patriots, Colts or Packers to trade their QB? I know Carson isn't one of them but MB doesn't change his mind or loyalty because of a couple of down years. (cough cough Brat cough cough) In his eyes, what Carson represents isn't far from what those QB's mean to their teams.

I want them to trade him and will be upset if they don't but the sky hasn't fallen yet. I may hate it when it does fall, but I'd rather MB play hardball and tell me it's based on principle than to give Carson away for less than value and have him go to the playoffs. If you think Bengal bashing is bad now, just wait to see what kind of crap they spew if a trade turns out to be lopsided heavilly in Carson's favor.

[BengalByTheBay]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this the first time Brown has said anything about getting "value" for Palmer? Prior to this, all comment was that he wouldn't even consider a trade. Now he's saying he won't trade because the value isn't there. Consider the possibility that the statement may be carefully worded to suggest the team may negotiate if somebody comes to the table with more appropriate "value." That isn't much different than what everybody here who keeps saying MB is a moron is saying.

What do you want him to do, say "we're desperate and the moment we can trade him we will"? IF (and that's a big "if") a trade is possible, this is exactly the way to play it at this point.

[HoosierCat]

Consider the possibility that the statement may be carefully worded to suggest the team may negotiate if somebody comes to the table with more appropriate "value."

That's been my assumption all along. After all, Mike also said Chad wasn't for sale in '08, but he listened when Snyderbrenner came calling. But based on how that didn't work out, I'm betting that Brown would put a price tag on Palmer that's higher than anyone is willing to pay.

[HairOnFire]

That's NOT what Brown is saying here. He said he doesn't see where he can get what "HE" considers value. By saying that, he's not being some sly fox who is holding the cards that no one else is aware of.

Well, what makes you think he's trying to fool anyone? More accurately, he's being asked to consider making a trade while under threat. Furthermore, the player who is forcing his hand almost certainly has far more value to the Bengals than to any other team willing to bid for his services. Last, the decision to trade or not will have a tremendous impact on the Bengals draft plans...which they're in no hurry to telegraph.

If Brown keeps the hard road and says he won't trade Palmer, then drafts a QB at #4 (God forbid) only to see Carson come back, then what ??

Obviously if he did that Brown will lose a portion of the leverage you claim he doesn't have. (Ironic, isn't it?) That said, leverage isn't a constant. It varies from moment to moment and can easily shift from something of utmost importance into something of no further value in the blink of an eye. And there's the rub because selecting a QB at #4 overall would cripple Brown's leverage over Palmer, but at that point he may not care anymore because selecting Gabbert or Newton effectively gives him a suitable replacement for Palmer, something he sorely lacks right now.

[HairOnFire]

....I'm betting that Brown would put a price tag on Palmer that's higher than anyone is willing to pay.

And he'd be right to do so. After all, Carson Palmer's greatest value is to the Bengals, not to the other teams who will be interested if he can force a trade.

Make no mistake about what Mike Brown is saying. He's stating point blank that he believes this team can compete again in the coming season with Palmer under center, and he's reluctant to toss those hopes away in exchange for the pittance most Bengal fans would greedily accept.

[cincyhokie]

....I'm betting that Brown would put a price tag on Palmer that's higher than anyone is willing to pay.

And he'd be right to do so. After all, Carson Palmer's greatest value is to the Bengals, not to the other teams who will be interested if he can force a trade.

Make no mistake about what Mike Brown is saying. He's stating point blank that he believes this team can compete again in the coming season with Palmer under center, and he's reluctant to toss those hopes away in exchange for the pittance most Bengal fans would greedily accept.

And that's where I would have to challenge his logic. Wanting the leader of your team, who doesn't want to be there, to come back is flawed logic. Plain and simple.

[ArmyBengal]

I agree that Brown will probably put a high price tag on Palmer and I am one who still thinks he is worth quite a bit. My issue isn't that, but rather his approach at this time to not even hear what the price being offered is. I'm not willing to trade Palmer for a 3rd as some suggested, but I'm from a standpoint that given the opportunity those same QB needy teams would be more than willing to up that pitiful excuse of an offer. Meaning, that may be a start point for someone to lowball, but will be far from the final offer.

I am also of the mindset that believes any owner who wants a gutless turd attempting (see failing) to lead his team for the sole purpose of leaving the organization is horribly, HORRIBLY flawed. While I have always been a supporter of Palmer and feel if he truly wanted to be here that he would give us the best chance to win, that's no longer the case. Just throw that pipedream out the window.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Carson's value is made up of himself (MB views him as a top 5, somewhat dominant QB)

Well if Mike Brown views Carson Palmer as a top freaking five QB in the league, then the man is either on the pipe, or more dilusional than we could imagine. IMO calling him a top ten QB may be outside the realms of reality. I just feel he'll never be the same QB he once was, which I'll admit is a shame. The potential was there.

It's time to move on Mike, and he who hesitates is lost.

[HairOnFire]

And that's where I would have to challenge his logic. Wanting the leader of your team, who doesn't want to be there, to come back is flawed logic. Plain and simple.

Well, that's the great thing about selective logic. YOU get to apply it where and when you want, and ignore it when it doesn't serve your purposes.

For example, any trade Palmer rant is based upon the idea of meaningful trade return being available in exchange for a player whose competitive fire has cooled to such a degree that not only is he willing to abandon his own career, but he's said to be entirely comfortable with his choice.

[HairOnFire]

I agree that Brown will probably put a high price tag on Palmer and I am one who still thinks he is worth quite a bit. My issue isn't that, but rather his approach at this time to not even hear what the price being offered is.

What does it matter? Have we all forgotten that no trades are possible right now?

Personally, if I was part of the Trade Palmer crowd I might be encouraged to read where Brown rejected the idea of trading Palmer for a 1st round pick. After all, it's proof he's considered the idea.

As for me, I had already tired of the talk calling for the Bengals to roll over and play dead in exchange for a single 2nd round pick.

[cincyhokie]

And that's where I would have to challenge his logic. Wanting the leader of your team, who doesn't want to be there, to come back is flawed logic. Plain and simple.

Well, that's the great thing about selective logic. YOU get to apply it where and when you want, and ignore it when it doesn't serve your purposes.

For example, any trade Palmer rant is based upon the idea of meaningful trade return being available in exchange for a player whose competitive fire has cooled to such a degree that not only is he willing to abandon his own career, but he's said to be entirely comfortable with his choice.

He doesn't want to play for the Bengals. He wants to play for another team. Another team that thinks he's worth a first round pick (possibly). Teams around the league are likely to look past his wanting out. Why? This doesn't need answering.

I really hope he's using this to not compromise the value of a trade. He might be, he might not be. We'll have to see.

What really bothers me is the apparent Mike Brown "digging in heels" in this. Being more adamant and public in his outcry as ever. More vociferous than we have seen him in a long time.

This is the same man who has never spoke of a purpose, a mission, a goal for his organization. A man who's strongest words towards wanting to win have been "We'll be competitive". Forgive me if I don't give him the benefit of the doubt.

[HoosierCat]

....I'm betting that Brown would put a price tag on Palmer that's higher than anyone is willing to pay.

And he'd be right to do so. After all, Carson Palmer's greatest value is to the Bengals, not to the other teams who will be interested if he can force a trade.

Make no mistake about what Mike Brown is saying. He's stating point blank that he believes this team can compete again in the coming season with Palmer under center, and he's reluctant to toss those hopes away in exchange for the pittance most Bengal fans would greedily accept.

Well, I think there's plenty of space between "pittance" and "higher than anyone is willing to pay" to strike a deal. What's frustrating is that the CBA breakdown has shut down the auction block, foreclosing the kind of bidding war that might net enough to satisfy even Brown.

[HairOnFire]

Teams around the league are likely to look past his wanting out. Why? This doesn't need answering.

Sure it does. Because if you're convinced that Palmer would walk away from his career if forced to remain a Bengal then you need to ask yourself why the owner of another lousy team would pay almost 12 million bucks per season to find out if Palmer could still be awakened from his stupor?

The fact remains that any trade return for Palmer will be based upon another owner rejecting the idea that Palmer's fire has flickered out and that he'll want to play "with all of his heart" when the time comes. So in other words, your trade desires are based upon your hope that other NFL owners, if given a chance, will come to the exact same conclusions that Mike Brown still clings to.

Where's your logic now?

What really bothers me is the apparent Mike Brown "digging in heels" in this. Being more adamant and public in his outcry as ever. More vociferous than we have seen him in a long time.

What changed?

Seriously, you seem to be pointing towards some remarkable escalation in rhetoric and hostilities, but I'm not seeing it. All I'm hearing is Mike Brown answering questions in the exact same way he would have done months ago. As for Palmer, he apparently wouldn't say the word s**t even when he's got a mouth full of it.

The status quo remains intact.

[HairOnFire]

Well, I think there's plenty of space between "pittance" and "higher than anyone is willing to pay" to strike a deal.

Not if you're trying to compete this season, as Brown flatly claims is possible if Palmer returns. And there's the rub because Brown isn't just putting a price on Palmer the player. Rather, due to the very position Palmer plays Brown is also forced to put a price on his desire to compete in 2011, 2012, and beyond.

[HoosierCat]

Well, I think there's plenty of space between "pittance" and "higher than anyone is willing to pay" to strike a deal.

Not if you're trying to compete this season, as Brown flatly claims is possible if Palmer returns.

Well, what Brown flatly claims and reality may be two different things. If we're playing Madden, sure, he's the best option. But we aren't, and this is the guy you just described as slumbering in stupor and and having a mouthful of s**t. That's the leader you think can take this team to victory?

[HairOnFire]

Well, what Brown flatly claims and reality may be two different things. If we're playing Madden, sure, he's the best option. But we aren't...

Aren't we? Isn't Madden the only scenario where any rookie QB, coupled with your beloved 2nd round trade booty, gives the Bengals a better chance to compete this season than Palmer would?

...and this is the guy you just described as slumbering in stupor and and having a mouthful of s**t.

I said he wouldn't say the word s**t even if he had a mouth filled with the stuff, all of which rather accurately describes Palmer's preferred leadership style, both before and after his trade demand.

That's the leader you think can take this team to victory?

Please forgive, but aren't you the same guy who has been pimping Ryan Mallett as Palmer's replacement?

Where besides Madden is an idea like that going to work?

[HoosierCat]

Aren't we? Isn't Madden the only scenario where any rookie QB, coupled with your beloved 2nd round trade booty, gives the Bengals a better chance to compete this season than Palmer would?

What beloved second round trade booty? I've repeatedly said he'd draw first-round-plus comp. More if we had a real trade market this year.

I said he wouldn't say the word s**t even if he had a mouth filled with the stuff, all of which rather accurately describes Palmer's preferred leadership style, both before and after his trade demand.

Right. And this is the guy you say gives us the best chance to win?

[HairOnFire]

What beloved second round trade booty? I've repeatedly said he'd draw first-round-plus comp.

Then why did you say you'd settle for as little a single 2nd round pick from next years draft? Are you in the habit of settling for dramatically less than full value?

More if we had a real trade market this year.

So despite your earlier protest you can envision trade scenarios where Palmer's value is higher next year. In fact, when writing on CincyJungle today you actually predicted there would be no trade of Palmer until the 2012 season, and...(wait for it)...for a surprising amount of return, right?

[HoosierCat]

What beloved second round trade booty? I've repeatedly said he'd draw first-round-plus comp.

Then why did you say you'd settle for as little a single 2nd round pick from next years draft? Are you in the habit of settling for dramatically less than full value?

Don't recall ever saying that.

More if we had a real trade market this year.

So despite your earlier protest you can envision trade scenarios where Palmer's value is higher next year. In fact, when writing on CincyJungle today you actually predicted there would be no trade of Palmer until the 2012 season, and...(wait for it)...for a surprising amount of return, right?

Right. We had this discussion already, remember? That Carson's value wouldn't decline if we waited a year? And I didn't say his value would be higher next year, in fact, that was you; I said I thought that was a stretch.

[cincyhokie]

Sure it does. Because if you're convinced that Palmer would walk away from his career if forced to remain a Bengal then you need to ask yourself why the owner of another lousy team would pay almost 12 million bucks per season to find out if Palmer could still be awakened from his stupor?

The fact remains that any trade return for Palmer will be based upon another owner rejecting the idea that Palmer's fire has flickered out and that he'll want to play "with all of his heart" when the time comes. So in other words, your trade desires are based upon your hope that other NFL owners, if given a chance, will come to the exact same conclusions that Mike Brown still clings to.

Where's your logic now?

Um, because he has stated that he doesn't want to play for the Bengals, not other teams. The Bengals are widely regarded as a poorly run franchise when it comes to an organization taking care of their players. Whether or not that's true is insignificant. Perception is reality. Also, if teams are willing to give players such as Terill Owens and Albert Haynesworth a chance, don't you think they're going to give Carson Palmer the full benefit of the doubt?

I'll admit if what Brown is currently doing gets them ahead in the long run, I'll be more than happy to eat the ol' turd sandwich. For now, it's my opinion that Mike Brown is better off not saying anything than what he is currently saying.

[HairOnFire]

What beloved second round trade booty? I've repeatedly said he'd draw first-round-plus comp.

Then why did you say you'd settle for as little a single 2nd round pick from next years draft? Are you in the habit of settling for dramatically less than full value?

Don't recall ever saying that.

Well, how often do you blackout after drinking?

Right. We had this discussion already, remember?

Of course I do, but I'm not the blackout drunk who writes using the handle of BeerRun....a desperate cry for help if I've ever seen one. Rather, I'm the colorful stoner with a heart-of-gold.

And I didn't say his value would be higher next year, in fact, that was you; I said I thought that was a stretch.

More accurately, we agreed his trade value would be no worse next year and I said I could envision a scenario or two where it would be better. You disagreed, I guess, if calling something a stretch qualifies as a disagreement. But now it seems you're attempting to stretch in exactly the same manner that I did by pointing out how a new CBA will bring a return of normal conditions to the marketplace. And with that return comes a better opportunity to trade Palmer for full value rather than attempting to unload a player under duress in a stunted market.

[cincyhokie]

When does the leverage shift again? If Mike Brown continues to have his no-trade stance and the CBA is not reached until after the draft, wouldn't teams not considering Palmer on the trade market be more limited than if they knew trading for him at a later date is a possibility?

If teams begin to fill their QB needs in the draft without the effect of knowing Palmer is on the trade market, you may end up with a team such as Arizona, for example, taking a QB in the draft instead of another position player. But it is possible that can shift both ways, I'm sure.

I just hope, hope that Mike Brown does not actually want Palmer back. Hell, I'll take "let him rot" over his possible "hope and wait" stance. This team is in no position to be anything other than proactive starting with a new CBA or when the draft starts. However that looks is fine, but "hope and wait" is worse than draft a QB and move on from Palmer, trade or no trade.

[cincyhokie]

Of course I do, but I'm not the blackout drunk who writes using the handle of BeerRun....a desperate cry for help if I've ever seen one. Rather, I'm the colorful stoner with a heart-of-gold.

Speaking of...I've got tickets for Neil Young's solo tour May 3rd in Cincinnati. Screw the NFL and the CBA. It's concert season.

[HairOnFire]

Um, because he has stated that he doesn't want to play for the Bengals, not other teams. The Bengals are widely regarded as a poorly run franchise when it comes to an organization taking care of their players. Whether or not that's true is insignificant.

Like hell it is. Anyone who wants to use the Siberia rant as justification for trading Palmer needs to come to grips with the fact that all of the teams who need his services are s**tty teams with s**tty owners. And yeah, those same s**tty owners would have to ask themselves why Palmer would be happier playing for them than he would in Cincy.

Frankly, the only way Palmer agreeing to play for Bill Bidwell or a Bud Adams makes any sense at all is if his core complaint really is with Cincinnatians themselves, lending credence to the rant about this being wife-driven.