Shut out of the Pro Bowl

[Sea Ray]

Dez Bryant was there, but obviously that wasn't the direction the coaching staff wanted to go.

I simply think there is MUCH of this season's failure that lays at the feet of the coaching staff in regards to the scheme and the way in which the young guys were used. Well, in the Bengals line of thought, the way the young guys WEREN'T used. On a side note, here's to hoping Pouncey's little bro finds a way to fall to the second for us.

You want pro bowlers on this team ?? Then the coaches should have found a way to get Dunlap snaps early and often.

Yep and if Dez was picked Simpson would be gone. I think last year's draft was the best in recent memory thus I agree with you in that we ought not expend much time complaining about it given the other issues going on with this team

I disagree.

The odd man out would have been Quan. Dez returns punts, precisely for which Quan was kept.

So, no, Simpson was not sure to be out had they taken Dez.

You have more faith in the decisions this coaching staff makes than I do

[Kazkal]

Dez Bryant was there, but obviously that wasn't the direction the coaching staff wanted to go.

I simply think there is MUCH of this season's failure that lays at the feet of the coaching staff in regards to the scheme and the way in which the young guys were used. Well, in the Bengals line of thought, the way the young guys WEREN'T used. On a side note, here's to hoping Pouncey's little bro finds a way to fall to the second for us.

You want pro bowlers on this team ?? Then the coaches should have found a way to get Dunlap snaps early and often.

Yep and if Dez was picked Simpson would be gone. I think last year's draft was the best in recent memory thus I agree with you in that we ought not expend much time complaining about it given the other issues going on with this team

I disagree.

The odd man out would have been Quan. Dez returns punts, precisely for which Quan was kept.

So, no, Simpson was not sure to be out had they taken Dez.

Actually a good chance we wouldn't have taken shipley and it could have changed our draft as a whole,Would we have Taken Dunlap in the 2nd if we drafted Dez? We could have went TE there instead would we have taken geno? I prefer to say ferk it I love last years draft as a whole.

[ArmyBengal]

The thing with thinking this or that in regards to what we got in the draft is to consider who we wanted, but wasn't there when we picked.

In the first: Thomas, Pierre-Paul, Graham, Morgan, Iupati, Pouncey, and Graham were all gone.

Gresham, Bryant, and Bulaga were there when we went on the clock that made the most sense.

In the second: Saffold, Price, Gronkowski, Kindle, Houston, and Mays were all gone.

Dunlap, Cody, Ducasse, and Spikes were there when we went on the clock that made the most sense.

In the third: Well, you get my point.

I don't think Atkins would have stayed on the board long enough to get him later, but I'm wondering if the Bengals had known Hernandez would have fallen to the 4th, if they would have waited. That's a retrospect question that really doesn't amount to much. That being said, even taking Gresham, I think it all worked out when looking at who was available and if the Bengals could have seen that coming.

[HairOnFire]

I'd say you guys are guilty of over-engineering the debate.

What if the Bengals had selected Gronkowski instead of Gresham based upon which player was the better blocker and a better fit in regards to the Bengals running game. The rest of the Bengals draft remains the same.

In short, no Hernandez. Instead, Coffman. And no silly debate about Gronkowski's numbers being inflated because of the way he was used in New England. Instead, a silly debate over the way Gronkowski upgrades the Bengals rushing attack even as he upgrades their receiving options at TE. Dunlap stays a Bengal. Shipley Stays a Bengal. Atkins stays a Bengal. Taylor Mays stays a 49er. Everything else stays the same...unless you want to dump Dez Briscoe from the discussion. (Please do.)

Again, in my opinion this isn't so much a thrashing of Gresham, although I still insist Gronkowski was the better choice. Rather, based upon all of YOUR responses a revisiting of the question that asked if it was prudent to allow Builder Bob to oversee the rebuilding of the Bengals passing game.

In retrospect that decision seems as cock-assed now as it always did.

[ArmyBengal]

I'm not suggesting anyone was bashing the Gresham pick, only trying to take a closer look at what actually happened on the board.

I was a big fan of Gronkowski, but the question was with his spinal stenosis crap, which he denied going in.

If nothing else, I'm glad we can enter this coming draft without all the "will the Bengals draft a TE early" talk.

I actually was a fan of the Coffman pick and hope he continues to get the chances this coming season.

If he develops further, I think he and Gresham would make some nice 2 TE sets.

Did we even see 2 TE sets this season ?? I thought Brat wanted to do that as well.

Geeesh...

[jjakq27]

http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/The-envelope-please/3ca4545f-f994-458d-b570-be252a379978

bengals.com end-of-season awards

MVP: Whitworth

Offensive Player of the Year: TO

Defensive Player of the Year: Leon Hall

Special Team Player: Dan Skuta

Lineman: Peko

Offensive Rookie: Gresham

Defensive Rookie: Dunlap

Special Teams Rookie: Muckelroy

Comeback Player: Pacman

Performance of the Year: C. Palmer

Quote of the Year: J. Simpson-"I never stopped believing I could do it. I knew what I could do all the time. This is for all the people that support me and didn't support me. I knew I could do this from day one."

[derekshank]

Gresham did exactly what I expected from him. He put up modest rookie receiving numbers while struggling in his blocking. Par for the course for rookie TEs... and just one of the many reasons I didn't want a TE in the 1st round (the main being that there were plenty of good TEs to be had in that draft later on).

As for the Gresham/Gronkowski debate... let's remember what team they play for. Had the Pats taken Gresham, I have no trouble believing he would have been a rookie of the year candidate.

Lastly... when comparing Gresham's receiving numbers to the other 15 1st round TEs in the last 10 years, the only players who put up more yards were Dustin Keller (barely) and Jeremy Shockey. He's in good company, and will be just fine. I've made my peace with the pick.

[COB]

Gresham did exactly what I expected from him. He put up modest rookie receiving numbers while struggling in his blocking. Par for the course for rookie TEs... and just one of the many reasons I didn't want a TE in the 1st round (the main being that there were plenty of good TEs to be had in that draft later on).

As for the Gresham/Gronkowski debate... let's remember what team they play for. Had the Pats taken Gresham, I have no trouble believing he would have been a rookie of the year candidate.

Lastly... when comparing Gresham's receiving numbers to the other 15 1st round TEs in the last 10 years, the only players who put up more yards were Dustin Keller (barely) and Jeremy Shockey. He's in good company, and will be just fine. I've made my peace with the pick.

What Ted Nugent's crazed face says makes a lot of sense. I don't expect rookies to set the world on fire. This pick was based in part on his receiver-like ability, and he didn't get to display that much. Blame Bratkowski and kick him forcefully out the door.

[HairOnFire]

What Ted Nugent's crazed face says makes a lot of sense. I don't expect rookies to set the world on fire.

And there's the rub because Gresham didn't set the world on fire. But Gronkowski did, and others delivered more bang for less buck, right? Proving that you can transform the way a team utilizes a position almost instantly if you select the right player for the system you play AND you gameplan correctly.

This pick was based in part on his receiver-like ability, and he didn't get to display that much. Blame Bratkowski and kick him forcefully out the door.

No argument offered in regards to Bratkowski. However, I will once again remind the assembled chorus of voices that you're all saying the same thing as I am with one exception. That being, you're all making more excuses than I'm willing to make in regards to Gresham's inability to set the world on fire. You're all pointing elsewhere, from Bratkowski's office to the shores of New England, always saying things will get better next season. And I'm saying they'll get better only if Gresham improves his blocking and route running enough to deserve a bigger role. And while I both hope and expect that to happen the idea that Gresham deserves consideration for all-rookie teams is almost laughable when you consider his competition.

[derekshank]

What Ted Nugent's crazed face says makes a lot of sense.

Yeah... Since Nugent has likely hit his last figgie as a Bengal, I should probably change my avatar. But I'll wait until it's official.

You're all making more excuses than I'm willing to make in regards to Gresham's inability to set the world on fire. You're all pointing elsewhere, from Bratkowski's office to the shores of New England, always saying things will get better next season. And I'm saying they'll get better only if Gresham improves his blocking and route running enough to deserve a bigger role. And while I both hope and expect that to happen the idea that Gresham deserves consideration for all-rookie teams is almost laughable when you consider his competition.

I agree that Gronkowski outplayed Gresham this season. That said, I'm not sure you can simply say Gronkowski>Gresham without at least considering NE>Cin. For instance... partway through the season the Pats decided to part ways with their diva WR and instead heavily utilize and gameplan around their talented young TEs. Cincy on the other hand added a diva and continually gameplanned around getting the ball in the hands of Chad/TO far more than any other weapon.

And even if Gronkowski is simply the better player, that's pretty easy to say now. The real question is, did you say it then?

I remember people wanting Gronk... but most were saying so hoping he would fall to the Bengals 2nd round pick because of his spinal stenosis concern. As for being against the Gresham pick... I don't think anyone spoke out against it more than I did. I complained about the pick for months. But once the season arrived, I made my peace with the pick and accepted the roster as it was... not as it might have been.

Saying the Bengals ought to have drafted Gronkowski at 21 instead of Gresham wasn't something I recall anyone asking for... and even if it was suggested, I certainly don't recall anyone complaining about it once the pick was made. Only now that we've had a year to see it play out. But hey, revisionist history is fun. Let's complain about how the Bengals should have drafted Oher and Desean Jackson too.

[HairOnFire]

I agree that Gronkowski outplayed Gresham this season. That said, I'm not sure you can simply say Gronkowski>Gresham without at least considering NE>Cin.

I have considered it. What's more, none of you will allow the conversation to go forward for even a second or two without constantly reminding me of the differences in the two systems. That said, those types of things only get you so far and at some point one of us simply has to throw his hands up in the air everytime someone claims Gresham would be as good or better than Gronkowski if he were a Patriot since it can't be proven. Obviously that person has to be me since I'm vastly outnumbered, but before throwing my hands in the air like I just don't care I will hammer upon the obvious by pointing out how none of you have any facts to back your claim. At best you've got a strong desire to ignore stats and side-by-side comparisions.

And even if Gronkowski is simply the better player, that's pretty easy to say now. The real question is, did you say it then?

Absolutely, and for some time I wasn't alone as Gresham and Gronkowski were often rated 1A and 1B, with Gronkowski higher rated on some sites. Gresham only emerged as a clear frontrunner after medical evaluations cleared him and downgraded Gronkowski.

I remember people wanting Gronk... but most were saying so hoping he would fall to the Bengals 2nd round pick because of his spinal stenosis concern.

Yup, that's when I and Camp Gronk lost the support of the Army, amongst others. But again, until those concerns surfaced Gronkowski was ranked as highly as Gresham and was often viewed as the more complete player due to blocking skills. Point blank, he's not a system guy who benefited from a gimmicky scheme. And just as important, he DID manage to set the world on fire.

As for being against the Gresham pick... I don't think anyone spoke out against it more than I did. I complained about the pick for months. But once the season arrived, I made my peace with the pick and accepted the roster as it was... not as it might have been.

As I recall, you complained about Gresham the prospect more than I did. I spent most of my keystrokes slagging away at the idea of using a 1st round pick on any TE or arguing that if the pick had to be a TE Gronkowski was a better fit for the Bengals due to his blocking skills.

Both of us made peace with the pick after it was made, and for me that hasn't changed. But having said that, the idea that Gresham might be named to an all-rookie team now seems dubious at best. Gronkowski simply lapped the field, Hernandez opened eyes, Moeaki delivered remarkable bang for the buck, Graham flashed enough to make Shockey expendable, and Gresham didn't set the world on fire. At best, we're all looking forward to his breakout next season.

But hey, revisionist history is fun. Let's complain about how the Bengals should have drafted Oher and Desean Jackson too.

People do just that, don't they?

[HairOnFire]

What Ted Nugent's crazed face says makes a lot of sense.

Yeah... Since Nugent has likely hit his last figgie as a Bengal, I should probably change my avatar. But I'll wait until it's official.

Perhaps a picture of Dave Raynor would be appropriate.

[derekshank]

And even if Gronkowski is simply the better player, that's pretty easy to say now. The real question is, did you say it then?

Absolutely, and for some time I wasn't alone as Gresham and Gronkowski were often rated 1A and 1B, with Gronkowski higher rated on some sites. Gresham only emerged as a clear frontrunner after medical evaluations cleared him and downgraded Gronkowski.

Yeah, I remember that. And up to that point, I was a bigger fan of Gronk than Gresham because of Gresham's knee problems and because the Bengals don't have a history of using primarily pass catching TEs. That said... the fact that Gronk went 20-something picks later than Gresham show that the Bengals were likely not the only team concerned about Gronk's health. And despite what we know now, we can't hold the Bengals to that standard.

Point blank, he's not a system guy who benefited from a gimmicky scheme. And just as important, he DID manage to set the world on fire.

Fair enough. But my initial point wasn't that Gresham is better than Gronk, but that given the information we had, Gronk didn't warrant the #21 pick over Gresham. Of course, you know all too well that I didn't feel Gresham did either. Yet, here we are. That said, I have no problem believing that Gresham will eventually live up to his draft status as an Antonio Gates type player.

But hey, revisionist history is fun. Let's complain about how the Bengals should have drafted Oher and Desean Jackson too.

People do just that, don't they?

Yes, they do. And I roll my eyes at them. While I don't always agree with you, I rarely roll my eyes at your posts... which is why I felt compelled to respond.

What Ted Nugent's crazed face says makes a lot of sense.

Yeah... Since Nugent has likely hit his last figgie as a Bengal, I should probably change my avatar. But I'll wait until it's official.

Perhaps a picture of Dave Raynor would be appropriate.

I was thinking Kai Forbath... but instead I'll plan on meeting here this time next year and complain about the O-Lineman that is no longer on the roster that they draft in the 5th instead of Forbath.

[COB]

and complain about the O-Lineman that is no longer on the roster that they draft in the 5th instead of Forbath.

Adam Kieft says Hey

[HairOnFire]

And even if Gronkowski is simply the better player, that's pretty easy to say now. The real question is, did you say it then?

Absolutely, and for some time I wasn't alone as Gresham and Gronkowski were often rated 1A and 1B, with Gronkowski higher rated on some sites. Gresham only emerged as a clear frontrunner after medical evaluations cleared him and downgraded Gronkowski.

Yeah, I remember that. And up to that point, I was a bigger fan of Gronk than Gresham because of Gresham's knee problems and because the Bengals don't have a history of using primarily pass catching TEs.

Well, thanks for confirming what I already knew. That my opinion in this rant isn't simply the result of revisionist thinking.

That said... the fact that Gronk went 20-something picks later than Gresham show that the Bengals were likely not the only team concerned about Gronk's health.

Gronk may have waited 20 picks to hear his name called but that doesn't change the fact that he was the next TE selected. Furthermore, his production since drafted was so good that his fall in the draft can easily be second guessed.

But my initial point wasn't that Gresham is better than Gronk, but that given the information we had, Gronk didn't warrant the #21 pick over Gresham. Of course, you know all too well that I didn't feel Gresham did either. Yet, here we are.

Indeed, here we are. Waiting.

That said, I have no problem believing that Gresham will eventually live up to his draft status as an Antonio Gates type player.

Probably true. But here's the rub. Much of the argument in favor of selecting any player in the 1st round, regardless of position played, is based upon that player being more ready to contribute immediately. Gresham managed to do that but not to a point where it could be said he transformed the way the Bengals used the TE. In fact, I'm guessing the Bengals production from the TE position this season wasn't dramatically changed from the previous season when the position was manned by a couple of waiver wire stiffs.

While I don't always agree with you, I rarely roll my eyes at your posts... which is why I felt compelled to respond.

Fair enough, but I fail to see what anyone would roll their eyes over the things I've written in this thread.

[kingwilly]

Probably true. But here's the rub. Much of the argument in favor of selecting any player in the 1st round, regardless of position played, is based upon that player being more ready to contribute immediately. Gresham managed to do that but not to a point where it could be said he transformed the way the Bengals used the TE. In fact, I'm guessing the Bengals production from the TE position this season wasn't dramatically changed from the previous season when the position was manned by a couple of waiver wire stiffs.

Here is where you are wrong. the TE position this year was FAR more productive than any in the past 5. These are very big increases by percentage and by ratio of the overall offense. TE took on a far bigger role than ever before. I won't debate who is the "better" player (Gronk/Gresham) because it is moot. NE took 2 TE's and got lots of production out of both, as they use the TE FAR more in their offense.

NE TE's accounted for 92 of Brady's 324 completions (28%), but even bigger is that NE TE's accounted for HALF (18) of his 36 TD's.

Cincy TE's accounted for only 65 of Palmer's 363 completions (18%) but only 4 of his 26 TD's (15%).

Cincy TE production.

2010

TE catches - 65 (52 by Gresham)

TE yardage - 523 (471 by Gresham)

TE TD's - 4 (all by Gresham)

2009

TE catches - 43

TE yardage - 410

TE TD's - 2

2008

TE Catches - 51

TE Yards - 360

TE TD's - 0

2007

TE Catches - 32

TE Yards - 333

TE TD's - 0

2006

TE Catches - 35

TE Yards - 374

TE TD's - 2

In the context of the Bengals offense, Gresham made significant impact. I think he was worth the r1 pick, though this was long before Bryant's lameness was revealed and they turned to TO. I would have preferred Dez Bryant over TO, and continue to rely on the JP Foschi's of the world, or a mid-round pick like Moeaki than Ghee.

Nonetheless, all the TE production in the world did not convert to winning for the Bengals, and we've all pointed to the abject ignorance of ground-and-pound as the reason for the failures.

To do it over, taking Bryant and Moeaki and sticking with the running game would have addressed the shortcomings that resulted in leaning on Coles and Coates (and later Foschi) at those positions in 2009.

So, here we have Gresham, Chad and an emerging Simpson and Caldwell to carry the chore of catching (hopefully a reduced volume of) passes from Palmer in 2011.

The argument for Gresham over Gronk is really moot as the offenses in which they operate are so vastly different, it is as if they don't even play the same positions.

[HairOnFire]

I was thinking Kai Forbath...

I still say Raynor might be more appropriate since our earlier ranting wasn't based upon which Bengal kicker was better, Nugent clearly was, but rather...which one had a prolonged history of injury.

FWIW I've read Nugent's rehab is going very well so it's unclear if he's attempted his last kick as a Bengal. That said, the previous concerns I had in regards to committing to Nugent are even stronger now and drafting a kicker sounds like something that should be strongly considered, but probably won't be.

((sigh))

[HairOnFire]

I won't debate who is the "better" player (Gronk/Gresham) because it is moot.

You won't debate it because there is no debate.

The argument for Gresham over Gronk is really moot as the offenses in which they operate are so vastly different, it is as if they don't even play the same positions.

The two players certainly don't produce as if they played the same positions. But even if you ignore the downfield receiving opportunities Gresham wasn't given why didn't he produce better in the red zone? After all, not only did Gronkowski score more than twice as often, but several TE's who played part-time minutes managed to score as often as Gresham, who started from day one and played a staggering number of snaps.

NE TE's accounted for 92 of Brady's 324 completions (28%), but even bigger is that NE TE's accounted for HALF (18) of his 36 TD's.

Cincy TE's accounted for only 65 of Palmer's 363 completions (18%) but only 4 of his 26 TD's (15%).

If you're trying to prove Cincy got less bang for it's buck then you'll get no argument from me. Or if you're trying to prove how mind numbingly stupid Cincy's focus on WR's was, at the expense of EVERY other weapon in it's arsenal then get in line behind me, because I've been banging on that point since early September. Last, if you're suggesting the Bengals would be well served to adopt New England's check down passing game next season then speak up because I've been saying exactly that since the season ended, including in this very thread. Point blank, Gresham and Coffman could be the Bengals version of Gronkowski and Hernandez, but only if the Bengal players are properly developed and only if the offensive gameplanning stops forcing the passing game through the WR positions.

In the context of the Bengals offense, Gresham made significant impact. I think he was worth the r1 pick...

In the context of the Bengals offense, ignoring what happened in New England altogether, Gresham and Kelly combined to produce 103 more receiving yards and two more TD's than Foschi and Coats produced the season prior. Frankly, that's not alot of bang for the buck, especially when you factor in the staggering loss of production in the running game. And while Gresham and Kelly did produce 22 more catches than Foschi and Coats managed the two stiffs averaged nearly two full yards more per reception. In fact, both Foschi and Coats bettered Greshams YPC average while playing in the same offense with many of the same players under the direction of the same coaches. Foschi even managed to match Gresham's longest gain of the year (27 yards) and Coats wasn't far behind.(23)

Frankly, anyone who thinks Gresham made a significant impact and was worth the 1st round pick isn't looking at the season that just ended. Rather, you're looking towards the future and projecting vast improvement based upon Greshams untapped potential. Which is fine to a point. But it's also ignores the fact that we're still waiting for the things promised when Gresham was drafted.

So yeah, underwhelming. And that needs to change.