The days of Carson Palmer are over.

[BengalszoneBilly]

Rodgers also plays at high level even when packers Oline is terrible,That's the attractive part about both newton & luck IMO is they are mobile...

I don't see Luck Shaking Defenders off like ben but I see him being the Elusive type.

You know I'm a huge Newton backer Kaz, but at this point I'd be happy to go with Luck. Maybe his name could finally bring us some.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

So it's been how long since a team without a franchise QB has won the superbowl?..

The Ravens with Trent Dilfer in 2000.

I'd also say the Bucs in 2002. Gannon was having a good stretch but I don't think anybody would call him a franchise QB. Eli Manning was drafted as a franchise QB - but through 2008 wasn't really playing like it (until one freakishly lucky play).

It can be done. You just have to have (gasp) a good defense and a solid running game.

[cincyhokie]

So it's been how long since a team without a franchise QB has won the superbowl?..

The Ravens with Trent Dilfer in 2000.

I'd also say the Bucs in 2002. Gannon was having a good stretch but I don't think anybody would call him a franchise QB. Eli Manning was drafted as a franchise QB - but through 2008 wasn't really playing like it (until one freakishly lucky play).

It can be done. You just have to have (gasp) a good defense and a solid running game.

If we're talking about the 2000 Ravens and the 2002 Bucs, we're talking about 2 of the best defenses of all time.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

So it's been how long since a team without a franchise QB has won the superbowl?..

The Ravens with Trent Dilfer in 2000.

I'd also say the Bucs in 2002. Gannon was having a good stretch but I don't think anybody would call him a franchise QB. Eli Manning was drafted as a franchise QB - but through 2008 wasn't really playing like it (until one freakishly lucky play).

It can be done. You just have to have (gasp) a good defense and a solid running game.

If we're talking about the 2000 Ravens and the 2002 Bucs, we're talking about 2 of the best defenses of all time.

Well, sure, they were very good defenses. I'd say in company with the '85 Bears and '86 Giants (and in the Bucs' case, having the Raiders' offensive signals didn't hurt either). Certainly that would be the point - SB winners need to be great teams, and having a major deficiency in one regard must be made up in another way.

Also, it probably depends on your definition of a 'franchise QB'. None of the Skins SB winners had memorable QBs. McMahon on the Bears was a clown (again, great defense, still). Both Giants teams had mediocre QBs (sorry Phil Simms). And while Toothlessburger may be a 'franchise' QB, he didn't play like it in the 2005 SB.

I would be happy to take my chances with a great defense and running game and get a dependable if not gaudy QB. I'd agree it'll be real hard to win with a bottom-5 QB (hi, 2006 Bears), but that doesn't mean you need a top-5.

[cincyhokie]

So it's been how long since a team without a franchise QB has won the superbowl?..

The Ravens with Trent Dilfer in 2000.

I'd also say the Bucs in 2002. Gannon was having a good stretch but I don't think anybody would call him a franchise QB. Eli Manning was drafted as a franchise QB - but through 2008 wasn't really playing like it (until one freakishly lucky play).

It can be done. You just have to have (gasp) a good defense and a solid running game.

If we're talking about the 2000 Ravens and the 2002 Bucs, we're talking about 2 of the best defenses of all time.

Well, sure, they were very good defenses. I'd say in company with the '85 Bears and '86 Giants (and in the Bucs' case, having the Raiders' offensive signals didn't hurt either). Certainly that would be the point - SB winners need to be great teams, and having a major deficiency in one regard must be made up in another way.

Also, it probably depends on your definition of a 'franchise QB'. None of the Skins SB winners had memorable QBs. McMahon on the Bears was a clown (again, great defense, still). Both Giants teams had mediocre QBs (sorry Phil Simms). And while Toothlessburger may be a 'franchise' QB, he didn't play like it in the 2005 SB.

I would be happy to take my chances with a great defense and running game and get a dependable if not gaudy QB. I'd agree it'll be real hard to win with a bottom-5 QB (hi, 2006 Bears), but that doesn't mean you need a top-5.

Right. That's the point here, in my opinion. Those defenses had PLAYMAKERS. Can this defense get there? Maybe with the addition of a couple of pass rushers, better LBs, etc.

Playmakers. The Bengals next season will have one legitimate player who at least has been a playmaker in the past. Players that defenses have to plan for. Carson Palmer. Can he get back to where he was? I don't know but you don't get rid of him if you have nobody else.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Playmakers. The Bengals next season will have one legitimate player who at least has been a playmaker in the past. Players that defenses have to plan for. Carson Palmer. Can he get back to where he was? I don't know but you don't get rid of him if you have nobody else.

My assumption was that Carson was the non-franchise QB you were referring to. Is that ouch?

I've generally been in the direction of giving Carson a fresh start, simply because I see so much wrong with Carson that is potentially fixable with new coaching. I've been pretty vocal that I want to see another OC at least try to give him a chance - assuming his velocity is still there.

I also wouldn't want to waste a rookie QB behind that line, the current OC, and a team that is generally mired in a lack of leadership. Depending on other decisions that might be made, I also wouldn't want a rookie QB within 20 miles of Chad or TO.

To me, you get rid of all the coaches with the possible exception of Zimmer. You hire a coach with the knowledge that he ain't getting a first-round rookie QB, at least not year 1. You give him and his staff a year to try to fix Carson however possible. You draft a whole lot of line. See what can happen.

[HairOnFire]

You'll be in a much fouler mood when you realize you're blinded enough to think Carson Palmer can get him the ball for a TD more often than he does the opposition. I'll put you down as one of the "Cart Before The Horse" group.

That's fine. But since we're being so honest I should admit I've put you squarely in the camp that put the horse infront of the cart only so they can better view of the horses butthole.

[HairOnFire]

I've generally been in the direction of giving Carson a fresh start, simply because I see so much wrong with Carson that is potentially fixable with new coaching. I've been pretty vocal that I want to see another OC at least try to give him a chance - assuming his velocity is still there.

Agreed.

Personally, I have no desire to get in a months long pissing contest with posters who will respond to every draft option by bashing Palmer, a player I don't see this team abandoning. Nor do I want to lend credence to those who point to selfish declining divas like Chad Ochocinco as an indespensable weapon this team has to keep due to the lack of other weapons.

Instead, I'll limit my pimping of Green to two factors. First, his ranking as a prospect perfectly matches this teams current draft position. Second, I think he'd be an instant upgrade over Chad, thereby allowing this team to build it's passing game around a stable personality....and cut Chad loose in the process.

It's win/win and it's realistic....as opposed to most of the QB bitching I'm reading.

[TJJackson]

better view of the horses butthole.

Here and I thought **you** were considered the official "horse's ass" around these parts :-)

[TJJackson]

his <A.J. Green's> ranking as a prospect perfectly matches this teams current draft position.

Second, I think he'd be an instant upgrade over Chad, thereby allowing this team to build it's passing game around a stable personality....and cut Chad loose in the process.

I concur with both points, but to the first point - I don't worry much about the 'value for the slot' much - take the player that fits your needs and system and don't worry if Mel Kiper will scream about the incredible reach you just made. That said, I am not intending to imply that Green does not fit our system - I have no idea at this time if he will or not.

To the second point, I just think they need to cut ties with Chad regardless of who they replace him with, because I see Chad as having a bottom line negative value to this team, and even late round pick with toughness and desire will provide an upgrade to the position

I think the value of putting together a dominant O-Line outweighs pretty much all other options with the exception of putting together a dominant D-Line

That said, I'd like to know more about what's between this guy's ears. I know he has mostly all the physical traits and experience one could ask for (http://nflmocks.com/2010/05/26/2011-nfl-draft-scouting-report-aj-green-georgia/), but regardless, I don't to replace one headcase/diva (ala Terrible, OchoDroppo, or Cheech) with another. I want hard work, toughness, durability, unselfishness, and leadership. A team-first, me second guy.

Yeah, I'm not asking for much, am I?

So anyway, tell me/us about the PERSON he is, or at least appears to be.......

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Nor do I want to lend credence to those who point to selfish declining divas like Chad Ochocinco as an indespensable weapon this team has to keep due to the lack of other weapons.

I think this is the year you finally get your wish - the step he lost last year turned into about 5 this year. He's not even close to worth the trouble anymore.

Instead, I'll limit my pimping of Green to two factors. First, his ranking as a prospect perfectly matches this teams current draft position. Second, I think he'd be an instant upgrade over Chad

I'm not a huge fan of picking WR at the top of the draft, but I'll confess they do need some athleticism at the position - can't come in with Shipley and Caldwell as your top 2 unless you want to see 9 in the box.

One other reason not to draft Luck should the Bengals find themselves at the top of the draft: he might stay in school. If he does, that might also interfere with your plans for Green if the Bengals are behind the Panthers.

I'm in favor of somebody fat and mean, myself. Scouts Inc has 6 of the top 10 as linemen, though I'll confess I'm not a college fan so I don't know anything about them.

[BengalszoneBilly]

That's fine.

C'mon man. Having an undependable QB is never fine. Not in this league.

But since we're being so honest I should admit I've put you squarely in the camp that put the horse infront of the cart only so they can better view of the horses butthole.

I've been watching buttholes on this team all this season from the owner, to the coaching staff, to the players. Honestly the Bengals have been the Facebook of f**kups in 2010. To go from division winners to division doormats in one year has been particularly hard to deal with.

[Sea Ray]

I'm not a huge fan of picking WR at the top of the draft, but I'll confess they do need some athleticism at the position - can't come in with Shipley and Caldwell as your top 2 unless you want to see 9 in the box.

Which is why they need to see if Simpson fits on this team or not. That could change all sorts of things at WR for 2011

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'm not a huge fan of picking WR at the top of the draft, but I'll confess they do need some athleticism at the position - can't come in with Shipley and Caldwell as your top 2 unless you want to see 9 in the box.

Which is why they need to see if Simpson fits on this team or not. That could change all sorts of things at WR for 2011

I'd assumed this was his 'do something or getdaf*ckout' year.

[Kazkal]

I'm in favor of somebody fat and mean, myself. Scouts Inc has 6 of the top 10 as linemen, though I'll confess I'm not a college fan so I don't know anything about them.

Offensive or Defensive Linemen? Because Defensive linemen I'm sure theres 3-5 though I could swore wasn't single Olinemen in top 10. got a list of the players?

[HoosierCat]

I'm not a huge fan of picking WR at the top of the draft, but I'll confess they do need some athleticism at the position - can't come in with Shipley and Caldwell as your top 2 unless you want to see 9 in the box.

Which is why they need to see if Simpson fits on this team or not. That could change all sorts of things at WR for 2011

I'd assumed this was his 'do something or getdaf*ckout' year.

I always assumed it was his "just wait one more season and then you replace Chad" year. If they have held onto him this long he's obviously in no serious danger, and I always thought odds were against them picking up Chad's option in 2011. Now, whether he can do the job is an open question, but yesterday was a good omen. In fact he ought to have had a TD if it weren't for a PI non-call. All that said, everything could change based on what happens with the coaching staff.

[HairOnFire]

I'm not a huge fan of picking WR at the top of the draft, but I'll confess they do need some athleticism at the position - can't come in with Shipley and Caldwell as your top 2 unless you want to see 9 in the box.

Which is why they need to see if Simpson fits on this team or not. That could change all sorts of things at WR for 2011

I'd assumed this was his 'do something or getdaf*ckout' year.

I'm not sure what Bengal fans are expecting out of Simpson, now or later.

At this point of the season about the only thing he can realistically "prove" is how stupid many fans were for writing a bunch of crap about how he was to blame for not playing. Seriously, if anyone reading this ever wrote about Simpson being at fault for only having one catch, well...check yourself.

Point blank, Simpson deserved more opportunities. He deserved a role. He deserved enough playing time to facilitate further developement. He deserved the chance to fail on his own merits. Instead, I have always believed he was drafted as Ochocinco holdout insurance and then immediately shelved and forgotten when that threat failed to materialize. But even if that were true, and it may not be, he deserved a role of his own simply because this team drafted him and had a responsibility to develope his talents.

That Simpson hasn't gotten a chance to play in 4 years isn't proof of his failure, but rather....proof of the inept coaching staff he's been handcuffed by. Any other team in the NFL would have given Simpson more opportunites, and would have tested him before now. Instead, this coaching staff always seemed terrified by the thought of actually using a player it had drafted early....a now familiar theme that goes well beyond the Jerome Simpson example. Wasted talent seems to be this coaching staffs calling card.

With all of that said, Simpson can't be included in any conversation about the future #1 WR role....and perhaps not the #2 role, so his availability doesn't have any impact on my interest in AJ Green. In fact, a new coaching staff is probably more likely to end this particular experiment than continue it, and if they do I won't criticize them a bit.

[Sea Ray]

I'm not sure what Bengal fans are expecting out of Simpson, now or later.

At this point of the season about the only thing he can realistically "prove" is how stupid many fans were for writing a bunch of crap about how he was to blame for not playing. Seriously, if anyone reading this ever wrote about Simpson being at fault for only having one catch, well...check yourself.

Point blank, Simpson deserved more opportunities. He deserved a role. He deserved enough playing time to facilitate further developement. He deserved the chance to fail on his own merits. Instead, I have always believed he was drafted as Ochocinco holdout insurance and then immediately shelved and forgotten when that threat failed to materialize. But even if that were true, and it may not be, he deserved a role of his own simply because this team drafted him and had a responsibility to develope his talents.

That Simpson hasn't gotten a chance to play in 4 years isn't proof of his failure, but rather....proof of the inept coaching staff he's been handcuffed by. Any other team in the NFL would have given Simpson more opportunites, and would have tested him before now. Instead, this coaching staff always seemed terrified by the thought of actually using a player it had drafted early....a now familiar theme that goes well beyond the Jerome Simpson example. Wasted talent seems to be this coaching staffs calling card.

With all of that said, Simpson can't be included in any conversation about the future #1 WR role....and perhaps not the #2 role, so his availability doesn't have any impact on my interest in AJ Green. In fact, a new coaching staff is probably more likely to end this particular experiment than continue it, and if they do I won't criticize them a bit.

Suffice to say the coaching staff has really screwed up the whole Jermoe Simpson thing to the point that I've never seen anything like it. Last year there were huge holes in the WR corps and Simpson still didn't get a sniff.Instead they went to the likes of Purify and others.

So they invested a 2nd rd pick in him, they have kept him on the roster for 3 yrs, yet they refuse to play him and other than a couple games last summer (pre season) they have not worked him into a special teams role. Supposedly he's been healthy. This whole thing really boggles the mind. Simply put, if they didn't want to use him at the end of last year why even keep him?

[kingwilly]

I'm not sure what Bengal fans are expecting out of Simpson, now or later.

At this point of the season about the only thing he can realistically "prove" is how stupid many fans were for writing a bunch of crap about how he was to blame for not playing. Seriously, if anyone reading this ever wrote about Simpson being at fault for only having one catch, well...check yourself.

Point blank, Simpson deserved more opportunities. He deserved a role. He deserved enough playing time to facilitate further developement. He deserved the chance to fail on his own merits. Instead, I have always believed he was drafted as Ochocinco holdout insurance and then immediately shelved and forgotten when that threat failed to materialize. But even if that were true, and it may not be, he deserved a role of his own simply because this team drafted him and had a responsibility to develope his talents.

That Simpson hasn't gotten a chance to play in 4 years isn't proof of his failure, but rather....proof of the inept coaching staff he's been handcuffed by. Any other team in the NFL would have given Simpson more opportunites, and would have tested him before now. Instead, this coaching staff always seemed terrified by the thought of actually using a player it had drafted early....a now familiar theme that goes well beyond the Jerome Simpson example. Wasted talent seems to be this coaching staffs calling card.

With all of that said, Simpson can't be included in any conversation about the future #1 WR role....and perhaps not the #2 role, so his availability doesn't have any impact on my interest in AJ Green. In fact, a new coaching staff is probably more likely to end this particular experiment than continue it, and if they do I won't criticize them a bit.

Suffice to say the coaching staff has really screwed up the whole Jermoe Simpson thing to the point that I've never seen anything like it. Last year there were huge holes in the WR corps and Simpson still didn't get a sniff.Instead they went to the likes of Purify and others.

So they invested a 2nd rd pick in him, they have kept him on the roster for 3 yrs, yet they refuse to play him and other than a couple games last summer (pre season) they have not worked him into a special teams role. Supposedly he's been healthy. This whole thing really boggles the mind. Simply put, if they didn't want to use him at the end of last year why even keep him?

I agree. I am having a hard time recalling a similar situation. There have been players taken high who have been a bust and let go, but not really left to sit and rot.

I love how ML's latest presser notes that Simpson and Caldwell don't do things perfectly or block on every play. Oh, you mean like TO and Chad?

FFS, if they are holding guys like Dunlap and Simpson to some extreme practice standard, yet what we see on the field is anything close to perfection. I mean, are we to believe that the starters are *perfect* in practice? no way.

[HoosierCat]

I love how ML's latest presser notes that Simpson and Caldwell don't do things perfectly or block on every play. Oh, you mean like TO and Chad?

FFS, if they are holding guys like Dunlap and Simpson to some extreme practice standard, yet what we see on the field is anything close to perfection. I mean, are we to believe that the starters are *perfect* in practice? no way.

In the case of Simpson/Caldwell vs. Chad/TO, there's just some CYA stuff going on. If TO and Chad go out and screw up, everyone blames them; if Simpson or Caldwell goofs, everyone blames (lack of) coaching. Which may, of course, all be true, but given the coaching staff's current status (i.e. almost dead) there no sense in giving the fans, media or FO any more ammo.

Dunlap's situation appears to just be sheer bullheadedness on the part of coaches who have convinced themselves they know better than everyone else. I think mem was onto something a week or two back in the time out thread, namely that egos like Chad's and TO's may not be the biggest ones on the Cincinnati sidelines.

[HairOnFire]

If TO and Chad go out and screw up, everyone blames them; if Simpson or Caldwell goofs, everyone blames (lack of) coaching.

A Chad apologist to the bitter end?

[HoosierCat]

If TO and Chad go out and screw up, everyone blames them; if Simpson or Caldwell goofs, everyone blames (lack of) coaching.

A Chad apologist to the bitter end?

Nope. When Chad screws up, it's his fault. But when Simpson screws up, it's because coaches have mishandled him, right?

[HairOnFire]

If TO and Chad go out and screw up, everyone blames them; if Simpson or Caldwell goofs, everyone blames (lack of) coaching.

A Chad apologist to the bitter end?

Nope. When Chad screws up, it's his fault. But when Simpson screws up, it's because coaches have mishandled him, right?

Wrong. Your latest pet theory is based upon freshly ignoring the things you've ignored all season, from the changes made in the offense, to the changes made in playcalling, to the overwhelming failure that has resulted in a grossly unbalanced pass/run ratio, to the wasting of draft assets on new recievers to replace, not the oldest receivers on this team, but the youngest.

As for consistency when blaming coaches, I'm a longtime Marvin backer who has repeatedly called for him to be fired since week 5 precisely because of the way he's handled this teams offense, Chad and Owens in particular. And for those same reasons I want Bratkowski's severed head to be served on a platter even more than Marvin's. So does that sound to you like someone who is reluctant to blame coaches? As for the kids, Caldwell and Simpson, I've repeatedly held coaches responsible for Simpson's lack of opportunity and I loudly wondered why this team was burning yet another draft pick on a new slot receiver unlikely to produce more than Caldwell managed the season prior. BTW, how's that last one working out? And while we're on the subject how goes the 1st round TE argument?

Point blank, you make more excuses for this team because it more closely resembles what you and Builder Bob desire.

[HoosierCat]

Wrong. Your latest pet theory

has nothing to do with anything you're talking about. It's just that coaches aren't playing young guys because they're afraid they'll make them look worse. That's all. But, uh, carry on...

[HairOnFire]

Wrong. Your latest pet theory

has nothing to do with anything you're talking about. It's just that coaches aren't playing young guys because they're afraid they'll make them look worse. That's all. But, uh, carry on...

Since when does winning look worse than losing? Frankly, you can keep talking in circles until you become so dizzy you fall down and go boombie, but doing so won't change the fact that they DID return to Smashball and they DID play the young guys, and in what must be a remarkable shock to you they managed to win for the first time in months.