Time to get some new people in the Med Staff

[HoosierCat]

For all we know the ankle surgery wasn't required and without it Jeanty may have recovered enough to practice and play.

And for all we know, it was and he wouldn't have, too. And again:

given the Bengals' increasingly questionable history of correctly diagnosing injuries, it's getting harder to grant them the benefit of the doubt.

But we never do.

Really? Just as an example over the past day I have seen quite a number of fans willing to argue that Bryant lied about of his the truth of his condition (thus he ripped off the team), or that he reinjured his knee trying to come back too fast (his own claim), all of which would argue that the Bengals medical staff wasn't at fault. And back in 2008, there were many fans unhappy with Palmer's decision not to listen to Bengals docs and have Tommy John surgery. Even the classic case, Chris Perry's infamous sports hernia, was defended on occasion by yours truly because of the difficulty of detecting that kind of injury. I think the Bengals' medical staff has been extended quite an ample amount of rope. Trouble is, they keep turning it into neckwear.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'll agree with Hair on one thing: any agent who trusts the Bengals medical opinion should themselves be sued for malpractice. Sort of like if they let their clients use the whirlpool in Cleveland.

Just to show that I'm willing to cite contrarian evidence...who knew that the Bengals' team doc (Robert Heidt) won an award as the best in the biz? My mind asplodes. I should guess he won't be a repeat winner.

/>http://www.kypost.com/dpp/news/local_news/Bengals-Team-Doctor-Receives-National-Award

[Stripes]

who knew that the Bengals' team doc (Robert Heidt) won an award as the best in the biz? My mind asplodes. I should guess he won't be a repeat winner.

Yet earlier in the thread it was theorized that the Bengals don't even HAVE a team doctor.

When it comes to criticism of the organization as specific as this, I'm very much inclined to assume one thing about fan perspective: nobody has a damned clue. Seriously, every piece of evidence presented to condemn the medical staff is either reliant upon complete guesswork (such as the causality behind random injury proned players' injury pronedness) or the blatantly biased rantings of an agent whose client was just cut.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Seriously, every piece of evidence presented to condemn the medical staff is either reliant upon complete guesswork (such as the causality behind random injury proned players' injury pronedness) or the blatantly biased rantings of an agent whose client was just cut.

Quite true, but there does seem to be rather a lot of it in the aggregate. And a few too many stories that start out like "once upon a time, a guy got hurt, doctors told him it was OK, but he needed major surgery...the end".

As to the Bryant situation, that's so f'd up that I really would like to know the full story. Supposedly there was dissent in the ranks on that one. Whether that flaming bag of crap belongs at the doorstep of the docs or Mikey I can't say.

[HoosierCat]

When it comes to criticism of the organization as specific as this, I'm very much inclined to assume one thing about fan perspective: nobody has a damned clue. Seriously, every piece of evidence presented to condemn the medical staff is either reliant upon complete guesswork (such as the causality behind random injury proned players' injury pronedness) or the blatantly biased rantings of an agent whose client was just cut.

I hear you. Over the years, the closest thing I've been able to find to an objective data point is this NFLPA survey from 2000 asking what percentage of players ranked their teams' medical care as good or better. Out of 32 teams, 26 had ratings of 72% or higher, and all of them were above 50% -- except the Bengals, where just 19% of players said the teams medical care was good or better.

Of the five team doctors listed in the Bengals 2000 media guide -- Angelo Colosimo, Jeff Craig, Robert Heidt Jr., Ed Jung, and Walter Timperman -- three are still with the team according to the 2010 media guide, Colosimo, Heidt and Jung.

Thats not conclusive by any means, but it is disturbing. We all want our doctors to be perfect, for obvious reasons, and they aren't going to be for the simple fact that they're human. And to be completely fair, on-the-record complaints about the staff come from a small fraction of all the players who have been through the Bengals system in the last decade. But we keep seeing these high-profile foul-ups, and the team still sticks with largely the same doctors, and as long as that's the case the questions aren't going to go away.

[kingwilly]

When it comes to criticism of the organization as specific as this, I'm very much inclined to assume one thing about fan perspective: nobody has a damned clue. Seriously, every piece of evidence presented to condemn the medical staff is either reliant upon complete guesswork (such as the causality behind random injury proned players' injury pronedness) or the blatantly biased rantings of an agent whose client was just cut.

I hear you. Over the years, the closest thing I've been able to find to an objective data point is this NFLPA survey from 2000 asking what percentage of players ranked their teams' medical care as good or better. Out of 32 teams, 26 had ratings of 72% or higher, and all of them were above 50% -- except the Bengals, where just 19% of players said the teams medical care was good or better.

Of the five team doctors listed in the Bengals 2000 media guide -- Angelo Colosimo, Jeff Craig, Robert Heidt Jr., Ed Jung, and Walter Timperman -- three are still with the team according to the 2010 media guide, Colosimo, Heidt and Jung.

Thats not conclusive by any means, but it is disturbing. We all want our doctors to be perfect, for obvious reasons, and they aren't going to be for the simple fact that they're human. And to be completely fair, on-the-record complaints about the staff come from a small fraction of all the players who have been through the Bengals system in the last decade. But we keep seeing these high-profile foul-ups, and the team still sticks with largely the same doctors, and as long as that's the case the questions aren't going to go away.

Long day and just catching up on the latest with Jeanty and his medical issue(s).

This now begs for a very close look into what the heck is, or isn't, going on down at PBS.

I recognize that injuries are regular in the NFL, and that what first presents can be very different than what is the real and true medical issue from an injury. Injuries can morph into more problems from overcompensation or simply neglecting to be clear with medical staff, as complaining about being hurt in the NFL does not get you much respect in the lockeroom.

All of that said, I think something is amiss with the medical staff working down by the river.

Not knowing the tenure of the current staff, it is impossible for me to comment on how long they have been working for the team, I can only recount how often injuries sustained by Bengals turn out far worse, or simply cannot be recovered from, as a result of treatment and rehab from the Bengals staff.

Here is a short list of players I can recall falling into the medical black hole down there:

Warrick - bruised shin/knee, broken leg ...heck, this is the staff that didn't realize the guy needed corrective lenses.

Chris Perry - high ankle sprain/break? Never got his wheel back.

TJ - Had the dreaded hammy tear. surprised he recovered but did.

Levi Jones - knees came to be an issue as staff treated him.

Stacey Andrews - knee was ruined

Ethan Kilmer - always hurt, never got better.

The list is pretty long...please, add more names, I am just rattling off some that popped into my head.

I think there is something wrong down there. Are the injuries any more or less consistent with the rest of the league. No, all teams suffer the injuries. Do all medical staffs face multi-faceted problems dealing with these kinds of injuries and medical issues? Yes but it just seems like the Bengals don't do as well with identifying and then resolving the injuries in a way that gets the player back to the team.

[membengal]

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but isn't the nature of football as a violent game one that lends itself to injuries for which "normal" prognoses don't apply?

Is it so unusual in the world of pro football that you have guys with f**ked up knees that simply won't respond to treatment?

In short, without looking at "lingering" injuries for other teams that don't really respond to treatment, this is an exercise that doesn't yield anything particularly meaningful.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

The list is pretty long...please, add more names, I am just rattling off some that popped into my head.

Didn't Willie's situation also get misdiagnosed, delaying necessary treatment?

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but isn't the nature of football as a violent game one that lends itself to injuries for which "normal" prognoses don't apply?

In short, without looking at "lingering" injuries for other teams that don't really respond to treatment, this is an exercise that doesn't yield anything particularly meaningful.

Yes, and for that reason I'm not going to blame them for guys that get dinged up. It happens. But an outright diagnosis is another matter. As you say, this is football. These docs are as specialized as it comes, spending a lot of their time on NFL players. They should know what to look for and what will/won't heal. Sure, there will be errors. But it certainly seems like they've made rather a lot of them, and costly ones at that.

As you say, to do a proper study somebody would have to dig into all 32 teams. I can say I don't recall a team screwing up as bad as the Bengals did with Bryant. If that was due to skimping on either docs or experienced football management personnel, then it was a very costly mistake. Giving Bryant full market value (some might say more) when rehabbing surgery was braindead. I'm thankful we got TO.

[jjakq27]

Doc's take...

/>http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100830/COL03/8310363/Medical-mistakes-expensive

[HairOnFire]

For all we know the ankle surgery wasn't required and without it Jeanty may have recovered enough to practice and play.

And for all we know, it was and he wouldn't have, too.

So make that argument, if you can. My first response will always ask what your contrarian opinion is based upon, if anything.

given the Bengals' increasingly questionable history of correctly diagnosing injuries, it's getting harder to grant them the benefit of the doubt.

But we never do.

Really? Just as an example over the past day I have seen quite a number of fans willing to argue that Bryant lied about of his the truth of his condition (thus he ripped off the team), or that he reinjured his knee trying to come back too fast (his own claim), all of which would argue that the Bengals medical staff wasn't at fault.

Look, just because you can almost find someone willing to make a homer defense it isn't sufficient reason to assume the opposite viewpoint. As fans we're never going to have the information or expertise needed to judge a medical diagnosis or rehab.....so it's just as pointless to defend actions we have no real knowledge of as it is to embrace yet another Bengal related conspiracy theory. As a result I traditionally limit my involvement in these types of debate to contract matters or gently mocking anyone who attempts to play doctor on the internet.

[Sea Ray]

How 'bout Rich Braham's "bone bruise" or Tab Perry's hip?

The evidence against the Bengals staff is pretty substantial and it's weak if their best defense is "why didn't you get a 2nd opinion?" If our players all need to get 2nd opinions in order to get back on the field then what good are our doctors?

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

As a result I traditionally limit my involvement in these types of debate to contract matters or gently mocking anyone who attempts to play doctor on the internet.

Of course you do, because otherwise you wouldn't have a (broken) leg to stand on. You play the 'divide and conquer' approach where you look at each incident as an isolated case, where you can play your usual role as unpaid team PR director to obfuscate. When taken in the totality, however, it becomes difficult to play the 'everybody makes mistakes' and 'football is a dangerous sport' cards. So you avoid that debate.

And then we have the Antonio Bryant clusterfudge, which is so indicative of blatant incompetence by *somebody* you defend on a regular basis (Doctors? "GM"? you pick!) that the obvious conclusion is simply inescapable. Big screwup. Anybody with a shred of sense - no medical degree or MBA required - could have avoided that decision. With regard to the Bryant fiasco, even you haven't been playing your usual 'knight in shining armor' role of coming to Mikey's defense. Because this one's so bad it can't be spun, and you know it.

Thankfully we have enough WR, and there's no cap, so it won't tank the season. Still, you know Mikey's gonna want his $8M back. Wonder what belt gets tightened.

[HairOnFire]

I'll agree with Hair on one thing: any agent who trusts the Bengals medical opinion should themselves be sued for malpractice.

Snarky responses aside, it is the players themselves who are most responsible for managing their own medical conditions, and there are absolutely no valid reasons for a player to not take full advantage of the availability of free second opinions from the very best medical specialists.

In Jeanty's example, had he found a second opinion that suggested ankle surgery was required immediately after he broke his fibula he would be a least two full months further into his rehab, and may have been able to pass his physical. Or he may have found other opinions that supported the Bengals diagnosis, thereby giving him a full 8 months to recover from a broken bone. Instead, he waited two months, then chose a treatment option the team didn't support, and as a result wasn't able to practice or play when his fate was being decided.

So who do I blame? Well, I blame nobody....because I'm not very interested in that. All I want is a reasonable explanation for why the Bengals cut a player, and in this example it isn't all that hard to find.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Snarky responses aside, it is the players themselves who are most responsible for managing their own medical conditions,

Problem with that is that your average player has an IQ that couldn't boil water. If he hires representation, the agent should do something to earn his 3%.

Instead, he waited two months, then chose a treatment option the team didn't support, and as a result wasn't able to practice or play when his fate was being decided.

There are multiple issues: 1) did the Bengals screw up (again), and 2) is Jeanty also responsible for his demise. on #1, it would seem likely. On #2, yes, he (and his management) are, for the reasons you cite.

The main reason why I tend to not feel too sorry for Jeanty is that he surely knew his foot was FUBAR when we went down to the 'Fins, and was essentially trying to pull a Bryant on them, sneaking an injury past the docs. Interestingly, seems like the Dolphins team docs are capable of protecting themselves by performing a proper physical, which in this case certainly saved the team a decent chunk of cash.

Even more interesting - the Dolphins were also in the market for a WR this past year. Wonder if they worked Bryant out and passed? There were rumors linking Bryant (a Miami native) to the Dolphins, though some doubted the Tuna would bite. If they did have him in, that would be Miami Docs 2, Bengals Docs 0.

[derekshank]

Snarky responses aside, it is the players themselves who are most responsible for managing their own medical conditions, and there are absolutely no valid reasons for a player to not take full advantage of the availability of free second opinions from the very best medical specialists.

This.

I have no opinion on the Bengals medical staff one way or the other. But if I'm a player, my body means a lot more to me than it does to the Bengals. Not just for the sake of being healthy enough to play, but to live the rest of my life with as little unnecessary pain as possible... you bet I'd be getting free 2nd opinions.

If you think the Bengals medical staff is incompetent... fine. Even more reason to get that 2nd opinion. Why anyone would ever choose against a 2nd opinion when it is free is beyond me. I like Jeanty a hell of a lot more than I liked Chris Perry, but it's the same level of dumb.

Add to it the general suspicion it seems many players have toward team doctors looking out for the team rather than the player.

Good God! The option is there. Go to someone who represents only you. It's free! Jesus f**king Christ! I just can't stand the whining! Grow up and be a man! Take some *** damn responsibility for your own well-being. Your hand wasn't forced in any way here. F*ck you!

[HairOnFire]

As a result I traditionally limit my involvement in these types of debate to contract matters or gently mocking anyone who attempts to play doctor on the internet.

Of course you do, because otherwise you wouldn't have a (broken) leg to stand on.

Sure I would. In fact, all I'd have to do is point to your recently exploded head and remind the reader that your empty and shattered cranium was the laughable result of you reading about a Bengal team doctor receiving the highest honor possible. Then I'd remind the reader about how you're still questioning that persons competence using all of your medical expertise....which you further admit you don't actually possess.

You play the 'divide and conquer' approach where you look at each incident as an isolated case, where you can play your usual role as unpaid team PR director to obfuscate. When taken in the totality, however, it becomes difficult to play the 'everybody makes mistakes' and 'football is a dangerous sport' cards. So you avoid that debate.

First, I can't avoid a debate until you offer it. Second, whether discussing one or a dozen medical diagnosis your qualifications don't change. Simply put, you still lack the needed expertise to give a qualified opinion, and that fact isn't going to change no matter how many times you're willing to opine about things you know nothing about.

And then we have the Antonio Bryant clusterfudge, which is so indicative of blatant incompetence by *somebody* you defend on a regular basis (Doctors? "GM"? you pick!) that the obvious conclusion is simply inescapable. Big screwup. Anybody with a shred of sense - no medical degree or MBA required - could have avoided that decision.

Sure, anyone can avoid making mistakes simply by taking no action whatsoever. And sometimes taking no action at all is the prudent thing to do. But in this example, and every other example you care to name, your medical opinion isn't qualified. Rather, it's just noise from someone who freely offers his opinion because that's exactly what his opinion is worth. Nothing. And furthermore, it's not really a medical opinion you're offering, is it? Rather, it's an opinion about how much monetary risk someone else will assume.

[jjakq27]

How 'bout Rich Braham's "bone bruise" or Tab Perry's hip?

iI've wondered whether that was Marvin's attempt at downplaying the details and keeping the details in-house. I can't always tell if he's repeating the actual diagnosis or re-lableing it as something less to keep the attention off of it.

Marvin's comments about Bryant and the medical staff from today

/>http://cincinnati.com/blogs/bengals/2010/08/31/83110-practice-update-and-marvin-quotes/

[Kazkal]

Something to Factor in releasing him too it was Probably Zimmers Decision in the end,Do you want this guy on defense? Healthy or Unhealthy I didn't see jeanty making this team he's a solid hard worker but he was never a playmaker and we are just to deep at the position.

PS,About Players going to medical Staff outside of the Bengals,Carson Saw 2 or 3 different specialists on his Elbow no? forgot who did he end up siding with?

[HairOnFire]

Snarky responses aside, it is the players themselves who are most responsible for managing their own medical conditions,

Problem with that is that your average player has an IQ that couldn't boil water. If he hires representation, the agent should do something to earn his 3%.

So your defense of any player who neglects the opportunity to get a free second opinion from any specialist he might chose is based upon the presumtion that the average player is an idiot?

There are multiple issues: 1) did the Bengals screw up (again), and 2) is Jeanty also responsible for his demise. on #1, it would seem likely. On #2, yes, he (and his management) are, for the reasons you cite.

On issue #1 neither of us is qualified to give an opinion...yet only I have refrained from doing so. On issue #2 you're agreeing with opinions I've offered that are based soley upon contract issues....which are easier to define. So maybe, just maybe, those are the types of things you should limit yourself to in the future, ehh?

The main reason why I tend to not feel too sorry for Jeanty is that he surely knew his foot was FUBAR when we went down to the 'Fins, and was essentially trying to pull a Bryant on them, sneaking an injury past the docs. Interestingly, seems like the Dolphins team docs are capable of protecting themselves by performing a proper physical, which in this case certainly saved the team a decent chunk of cash.

Isn't the same thing true of the Bengals? Didn't they just save themselves some money, as well as a roster spot, by cutting Jeanty precisely because he couldn't pass a team physical 8 full months after he broke his fibula?

Even more interesting - the Dolphins were also in the market for a WR this past year.

Yeah, and they chose to sign the more expensive so-called character risk who was recently involved in the fatal shooting of a teammate rather than the player who carried more medical risk. Shame on us, I guess.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Sure, anyone can avoid making mistakes simply by taking no action whatsoever....and furthermore, it's not really a medical opinion you're offering, is it? Rather, it's an opinion about how much monetary risk someone else will assume.

Counterarguments:

1) You present a false dichotomy of either a) Antonio Bryant or no action. Other alternatives were named "Brandon Marshall", "Anquan Boldin", and "Terrel Owens". All were superior.

2) I don't need a medical opinion to see that a guy can't run. Just a stopwatch and eyes.

3) You're right about the risk assumption. If I'm betting on damaged goods, I want a discount. Or from a poker angle, what are my pot odds?

[derekshank]

Sure, anyone can avoid making mistakes simply by taking no action whatsoever....and furthermore, it's not really a medical opinion you're offering, is it? Rather, it's an opinion about how much monetary risk someone else will assume.

Counterarguments:

1) You present a false dichotomy of either a) Antonio Bryant or no action. Other alternatives were named "Brandon Marshall", "Anquan Boldin", and "Terrel Owens". All were superior.

I was never a fan of giving up two future 2nd round picks AND paying huge dollars to a guy who could be one mistake away from a lifelong ban. (Marshall)

I was also not a fan of giving away a high draft pick AND paying huge dollars to an injury prone WR who doesn't possess the ability to stretch the field. (Boldin)

As for your 3rd option... well, what can I say? Better late than never I guess. Especially when late means less than half of his initial contract requirements.

[kingwilly]

Sure, anyone can avoid making mistakes simply by taking no action whatsoever....and furthermore, it's not really a medical opinion you're offering, is it? Rather, it's an opinion about how much monetary risk someone else will assume.

Counterarguments:

1) You present a false dichotomy of either a) Antonio Bryant or no action. Other alternatives were named "Brandon Marshall", "Anquan Boldin", and "Terrel Owens". All were superior.

2) I don't need a medical opinion to see that a guy can't run. Just a stopwatch and eyes.

3) You're right about the risk assumption. If I'm betting on damaged goods, I want a discount. Or from a poker angle, what are my pot odds?

This is an issue that is not just rooted in the medical staff or "luck", it is rooted in the gambles that SoP takes when he makes roster decisions.

Antonio Bryant, when compared to the tow other available premier WR's this year (Boldin and Marshall) had as much risk, medical or disciplinary, of the three and offered the lowest ceiling. Boldin and Marshall compare more favorably in playing style and ability to TO than they do Bryant. TO's style will have more impact on this offense than Bryant would have, IMO, and would Boldin or Marshall come here, this upside could have been enjoyed for several years.

SoP neglected to choose Boldin or Marshall, and the resulting bungling of the Brant selection and deal, and subsequent signing of TO indicate the seriousness of the error. I mean, no one else was lining up to sign TO, not even WR desperate teams like the Rams or Chicago or Jax. You sign TO when you are desperate. I think this is what irritates me. It is not the medical staff, per se, it is the often poor decisions and then resulting desperate moves to correct the poor decision.

In this case, I think it will all work out. Unlike last year with Coles, TO will produce at or above what can be expected. More to the point of poor initial decisions, this team COULD have made a run at Boldin or Marshall (giving them Bryant type money) and STILL grabbed TO if necessary, as they seemingly were prepared to carry Bryant had his knee been a bit better. That is the part I get ticked about.

Bryant had no business being signed. None.

[ArmyBengal]

Jesus f**king Christ!

And here I thought his middle name started with an "H"...

Thanks for the clarification Derek !!!

[HairOnFire]

1) You present a false dichotomy of either a) Antonio Bryant or no action.

Not at all. In fact, it's far more accurate to say that the Bryant signing was just one of a dozen moves made to strengthen the Bengals passing game, and further proof of the Bengals remarkable and sometimes foolish commitment to throwing the ball around the yard at all costs.

In fact, the Bengals weren't done shopping after signing Bryant, were they? They drafted 3 more pass catchers long before Bryant's injury status become known, and then signed Owens immediately after the first warning signs were observed.

[HairOnFire]

This is an issue that is not just rooted in the medical staff or "luck", it is rooted in the gambles that SoP takes when he makes roster decisions.

Repeat until dead. "We are the Bastard Sons of Paul Brown, and we will throw the ball around the yard at all costs."

SoP neglected to choose Boldin or Marshall, and the resulting bungling of the Brant selection and deal, and subsequent signing of TO indicate the seriousness of the error.

Or as a sign of the Bengals commitment to fixing the passing game at all costs.

In this case, I think it will all work out.

So heaps of criticism followed immediately by a passing grade. (Pun intended.)

More to the point of poor initial decisions, this team COULD have made a run at Boldin or Marshall (giving them Bryant type money) and STILL grabbed TO if necessary, as they seemingly were prepared to carry Bryant had his knee been a bit better. That is the part I get ticked about.

So everything works out fine, but you're still ticked off by things that could have happened, but might not have? Isn't it likely a run at Boldin or Marshall doesn't result in anything but driving their price up?