Local kid trying to make the team

[jjakq27]

LEWIS LIKES WINDT: Free agent rookie long snapper Mike Windt should have a chance at making this club. A two-time long-snapper for Cincinnati Elder High School's back-to-back state champs, Windt went on to the University of Cincinnati to snap for the Bearcats' Orange and Sugar bowl teams. He's already got a good thing going with Bengals punter Kevin Huber, a guy that reached All-American status at UC with Windt snapping.

Plus, three times head coach Marvin Lewis said, “Mike is very talented,” in Friday’s news conference, making it clear there is going to be a battle with incumbent Clark Harris for the long snapper job. Harris signed early last season in the wake of long-time snapper Brad St. Louis’ woes and Lewis says he brings the advantage of playing tight end as well as an ability “to cover the field.”

But Windt, 23, is younger and, as Lewis saw Friday, “Watching out there today, he’s got a lot of ability. Great accuracy, great velocity with it, great feel for it. He’ll get a good opportunity to see if he can do it here for us.”

Lewis said his experience with Huber isn’t a factor because “I don’t think Kevin has time to think about who is snapping.”

Huber is also the holder on field goals and extra points, but Lewis wouldn’t rule out rookie wide receiver Jordan Shipley doing the duties. Special teams coach Darrin Simmons likes to have the kicker, holder, and long snapper work together during most of practice, which is a reason the punter does it and a position player doesn’t.

But Lewis said they’ve got 24 hours in a day to figure something out if Shipley “were the best holder, that would be great.”

Windt is staring at one big obstacle. Because UC doesn't graduate until early June, he can't return to practice with the team until the last two camps. The one thing going for him is he can hook up with Huber anywhere but at PBS.

"It's tough because you'd like to have him around getting used to everything," Simmons said after practice. "He did all right. He's got to learn the tempo of the NFL game. Everything moves from drill to drill and during the drills a lot faster. A lot quicker. That will be a process I would imagine he'll adjust to pretty quickly."

Windt is wearing St. Louis' old No. 48 and he doesn't mind that at all. He never talked to him, but he admired him.

"The guy was one of the best in the league," Windt said. "I copied everything the guy did. I don't know what happened to him (last year), but I always watched him and tried to imitate him."

[/i]http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Rookie-notes-Dawson-hops-division-fence-Lewis-high-on-snapper-Injuries-pile-up/64f40260-4045-4d4e-8127-657f0c8a0279

[/i]http://cnati.com/cincinnati-bengals/making-the-most-of-his-skill-001881/

[BengalByTheBay]

It "sounds" like they're actually going to give this kid a real shot at it. No reason not to have a legitimate competition for the spot, despite the fact that Harris did fine last year. And by "fine" I mean he didn't cost us two games by himself, so it's not too ringing of an endorsement.

[redsbengalsbucks]

It "sounds" like they're actually going to give this kid a real shot at it. No reason not to have a legitimate competition for the spot, despite the fact that Harris did fine last year. And by "fine" I mean he didn't cost us two games by himself, so it's not too ringing of an endorsement.

Sounds like the new kid has some better speed and accuracy, than the servicable LS that did emergency duty last year. Harris was good enough to not have his name called, but if an upgrade can be had, I say do it.

[jjakq27]

Another article from the dotcom.

/>http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/West-Side-Story/b92137aa-1c64-4f43-ad15-593f1b0f113c

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Give him a shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm sure Brad St. Louis will still be available.

[HairOnFire]

Huber is also the holder on field goals and extra points, but Lewis wouldn’t rule out rookie wide receiver Jordan Shipley doing the duties. Special teams coach Darrin Simmons likes to have the kicker, holder, and long snapper work together during most of practice, which is a reason the punter does it and a position player doesn’t.

But Lewis said they’ve got 24 hours in a day to figure something out if Shipley “were the best holder, that would be great.”

In other words, they just burned a 3rd round pick on a slow slot WR who probably won't play very much so why not find something for him to actually do.

Very inspiring.

[membengal]

Hair, you rant with the best of them, actually, probably the best, now that I think about it, but I think you are carrying the point a little too far with Shipley. And that is a contortionists act to read into that quote that the Bengals are already scrambling to find ways to get Shipley on the field.

I guess we will see when camp gets here. I think he is an absolute upgrade to the team, and will play a lot in the slot, this year and going forward.

I sure as hell like his chances for improving the team over Caldwell immediately.

[Kazkal]

Huber is also the holder on field goals and extra points, but Lewis wouldn’t rule out rookie wide receiver Jordan Shipley doing the duties. Special teams coach Darrin Simmons likes to have the kicker, holder, and long snapper work together during most of practice, which is a reason the punter does it and a position player doesn’t.

But Lewis said they’ve got 24 hours in a day to figure something out if Shipley “were the best holder, that would be great.”

In other words, they just burned a 3rd round pick on a slow slot WR who probably won't play very much so why not find something for him to actually do.

Very inspiring.

anyone know what TJ Ran? because I'm sure wasn't that high and since he gets compared to him Wes Welkar didn't run very fast either.

[HairOnFire]

Hair, you rant with the best of them, actually, probably the best, now that I think about it, but I think you are carrying the point a little too far with Shipley.

I plead guilty as charged. And all I can say in my defense is I hated the pick from moment one, and even after a cooling off period I'm unable to put aside my anger long enough to embrace the pick. And yeah, that suprises me because my inner homer usually prevails in moments like these.

I sure as hell like his [shipley] chances for improving the team over Caldwell immediately.

Immediately?

Again, Caldwell caught 51 balls last season. So as someone who actually likes the pick, please tell me what level of increased production I can expect from Shipley? Should I expect 60 receptions or 70? More?

FWIW, I'm guessing 25, and hoping for 30.

[blueridge]

Huber is also the holder on field goals and extra points, but Lewis wouldn’t rule out rookie wide receiver Jordan Shipley doing the duties. Special teams coach Darrin Simmons likes to have the kicker, holder, and long snapper work together during most of practice, which is a reason the punter does it and a position player doesn’t.

But Lewis said they’ve got 24 hours in a day to figure something out if Shipley “were the best holder, that would be great.”

In other words, they just burned a 3rd round pick on a slow slot WR who probably won't play very much so why not find something for him to actually do.

Very inspiring.

anyone know what TJ Ran? because I'm sure wasn't that high and since he gets compared to him Wes Welkar didn't run very fast either.

Shipley is not "slow" by any means. You obsessing over one 4.6 forty time. I guess you're still thrilled over the Jerome Simpson pick-4.47 forty.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Again, Caldwell caught 51 balls last season. So as someone who actually likes the pick, please tell me what level of increased production I can expect from Shipley? Should I expect 60 receptions or 70? More?

FWIW, I'm guessing 25, and hoping for 30.

Does this have to be an either/or? I'm not familiar with Shipley, but if the comparisons to Welker are remotely apt, it would seem that he and Caldwell have somewhat different skill sets. Caldwell seems like a reasonably sized target who can work fine in space for midrange throws. Welker is the guy you get the ball to short and let him terrorize LBs. Near the goal line, I could see having them both on the field for 3WR (if justified by production), possibly pulling Bryant. Not saying he's that good, but if he is I think they can coexist.

Seems to me if somebody knocks Caldwell off the field, it'll be Gresham.

Again, not knowing anything about Shipley - can he fill in production for the pass-catching RB we don't have, like Welker does? To me, that's what would get Shipley on the field.

[HairOnFire]

.... he gets compared to him Wes Welkar didn't run very fast either.

I wished that cheered me up more than it does.

Because Wes Welker never caught a single pass in his first two NFL seasons, was already on his 2nd team before he manged to grab his first reception, and had produced less than 30 catches and 450 yards receiving after three seasons.....numbers Andre Caldwell easily eclipses. As for his added value as a kick returner...Welker fumbled 9 times over two seasons before being relived of those duties. To be fair, Welker then "broke out" by producing mostly Andre Caldwell like numbers for the Dolphins in his 4th season, and then had a magical season in 2007, his first year with the Pats. But after scoring half of his career TD production in one season, 2007, all of Welkers stats have been marginal with the sole exception of total catches.

Just saying...

[TJJackson]

Caldwell caught 51 balls last season. So as someone who actually likes the pick, please tell me what level of increased production I can expect from Shipley? Should I expect 60 receptions or 70? More?

FWIW, I'm guessing 25, and hoping for 30.

Barring injury - every expectation for a given player x has to consider injuries - my expectations more or less mirror Hair's

In this case.

whew, that was hard.

[derekshank]

Caldwell caught 51 balls last season. So as someone who actually likes the pick, please tell me what level of increased production I can expect from Shipley? Should I expect 60 receptions or 70? More?

FWIW, I'm guessing 25, and hoping for 30.

Barring injury - every expectation for a given player x has to consider injuries - my expectations more or less mirror Hair's

In this case.

whew, that was hard.

I don't have trouble agreeing either... but I don't agree that it's a problem. I didn't really want a WR at that spot either, but I am far more willing to see the positives he provides... despite the fact that I doubt he'll get more than 30 catches. And here's why:

Chad had 72 receptions last season. He should be able to put up similar stats.

Coles only had 43 receptions. Bryant should easily eclipse that. Let's say 50-60 catches.

Gresham/Coffman should be head and shoulders better than Coats/Foschi when it comes to receiving. Coats and Foschi (run blocking TEs) caught a combined 43 balls (targeted 68 times), and I find it hard to see Gresham/Coffman/?Kelly? combining for less than 60 catches.

Assuming I'm in the ballpark here, the Bengals have gotten 30-50 more receptions from those positions before even considering Caldwell and Shipley. And as role players, they have different skill sets. So, unless they abandon the running game, there won't be a lot of opportunities to catch much more than 30 balls each. However, I envision those 30 catches to be important and memorable, in spite of a forgettable stat line (See Brian Leonard).

But this is where Hair finds the problem. Shipley is far better described as a luxury item than an area of need. While I agree with that assessment, he possesses a skill set that I don't see on the Bengals roster. For that reason, I'm okay with it.

I don't see the Bengals returning to '05 stats any time soon... but Gresham and Shipley should certainly improve the redzone offense resulting in fewer FGs and less pressure on the defense. For that reason, I like Shipley, and am forced to warm to Gresham.

[Kazkal]

Huber is also the holder on field goals and extra points, but Lewis wouldn’t rule out rookie wide receiver Jordan Shipley doing the duties. Special teams coach Darrin Simmons likes to have the kicker, holder, and long snapper work together during most of practice, which is a reason the punter does it and a position player doesn’t.

But Lewis said they’ve got 24 hours in a day to figure something out if Shipley “were the best holder, that would be great.”

In other words, they just burned a 3rd round pick on a slow slot WR who probably won't play very much so why not find something for him to actually do.

Very inspiring.

anyone know what TJ Ran? because I'm sure wasn't that high and since he gets compared to him Wes Welkar didn't run very fast either.

Shipley is not "slow" by any means. You obsessing over one 4.6 forty time. I guess you're still thrilled over the Jerome Simpson pick-4.47 forty.

I'm Obsessed? or Hair is? I could careless what he ran and full support of the player see my sig.

Caldwell seems like a reasonably sized target

Caldwell is 6'0 and Shipley is 6'0...Caldwell is 7 lbs heavier but give shipley some time in NFL and i'm sure he'll put on a couple of lbs.

Because Wes Welker never caught a single pass in his first two NFL seasons, was already on his 2nd team before he manged to grab his first reception, and had produced less than 30 catches and 450 yards receiving after three seasons.....numbers Andre Caldwell easily eclipses. As for his added value as a kick returner...Welker fumbled 9 times over two seasons before being relived of those duties. To be fair, Welker then "broke out" by producing mostly Andre Caldwell like numbers for the Dolphins in his 4th season, and then had a magical season in 2007, his first year with the Pats. But after scoring half of his career TD production in one season, 2007, all of Welkers stats have been marginal with the sole exception of total catches.

I have no Complaints about Caldwell,like I said on other threads I could see his role growing on the outside...Since more likely he'll end up taking Chads spot next year if they don't pick up the option.

[HairOnFire]

I didn't really want a WR at that spot either, but I am far more willing to see the positives he provides... despite the fact that I doubt he'll get more than 30 catches.

Sheesh, does anyone think Shipley will produce more than that? And if not why the f**k was a 3rd round pick burned on this guy?

Assuming I'm in the ballpark here, the Bengals have gotten 30-50 more receptions from those positions {Gresham, Coffman, Antonio Bryant] before even considering Caldwell and Shipley.

Exactly. The improvements already made at the #2WR slot and earlier in the draft at TE should dramatically improve the passing offense by themselves. Which rather neatly brings us to....

So, unless they abandon the running game, there won't be a lot of opportunities to catch much more than 30 balls each.

And there it is. No real need whatsoever, and fewer opportunities for BOTH 3rd round draft picks.

However, I envision those 30 catches to be important and memorable, in spite of a forgettable stat line (See Brian Leonard).

Fair enough. Now let me ask you what did it cost this team to acquire Brian Leonard? Or Bernard Scott? Or Quan Cosby? Or for that matter, Dez Briscoe....who the team admits was also a luxury pick?

But this is where Hair finds the problem. Shipley is far better described as a luxury item than an area of need. While I agree with that assessment, he possesses a skill set that I don't see on the Bengals roster. For that reason, I'm okay with it.

As I recall the skill set Bengal coaches identified as woefully lacking was related to deep speed, and the need to produce more chunk plays. So knowing that, please help me understand why they drafted a 1st round TE with marginal speed, and two WR's who couldn't break 4.6 in the 40.

[BengalPimp]

I have no Complaints about Caldwell,like I said on other threads I could see his role growing on the outside...Since more likely he'll end up taking Chads spot next year if they don't pick up the option.

Chad's not going anywhere, anytime soon. If Caldwell ends up taking Chad's spot......we're in trouble.

[BengalPimp]

So knowing that, please help me understand why they drafted a 1st round TE with marginal speed, and two WR's who couldn't break 4.6 in the 40.

Wait, Wait, Wait......Gresham has "marginal" speed?

He runs a 4.6 40.

Look at some of the top 10 TE's (statistically) from last season

Antonio gates runs a 4.6 40

Jason Witten runs a 4.67

Owen Daniels (one of the MOST underrated TE's in the league) runs a 4.69

Brent Celek 4.75

Heath Miller 4.8

The few exceptions are Vernon Davis' 4.4 and Dallas Clark's 4.55.

I'd probably put money on Gresham if he were to race Briscoe.

[HairOnFire]

And as role players, they have different skill sets. So, unless they abandon the running game, there won't be a lot of opportunities to catch much more than 30 balls each.

I already responded to the above, but something about it kept nagging at me.

And then it hit me.

You're projecting Caldwell and Shipley will combine for 60 catches....without much opportunity for more. But Caldwell caught 51 balls last year, so the net gain from the burned 3rd round pick would be just 9 receptions and roughly 100 yards receiving.

Suddenly I feel like punching someone.

Then again, I always do.

[HairOnFire]

I'd probably put money on Gresham if he were to race Briscoe.

Well, if Briscoe is involved can it really be called a race?

[derekshank]

As I recall the skill set Bengal coaches identified as woefully lacking was related to deep speed, and the need to produce more chunk plays. So knowing that, please help me understand why they drafted a 1st round TE with marginal speed, and two WR's who couldn't break 4.6 in the 40.

I will have to take your word for that. I don't recall the coaches specifying what was wrong with the passing game. Plenty of people here specified that problem, but it is overly simplistic to identify that as the one issue needing addressed in the passing game.

In my opinion, the greatest weakness of the passing game was the lack of a real weapon in the middle. Safeties could cheat deep, knowing Palmer couldn't really hurt them... and I don't care how strong Palmer's arm is, you can't keep throwing out routes over and over again. When the ball is in the air that long, it's trouble. They needed someone who could keep the safeties honest.

While Gresham does appear to serve that role nicely, do you prefer the Bengals have all of their eggs in that basket? What if he gets injured? What if he's a bust? And why have only one weapon who is able to keep a safety honest? If Gresham will keep the safeties honest, won't Gresham AND Shipley almost force them to adjust even more, opening up the deep ball for Chad and Bryant?

I'm not asking you to fall in love with this pick... as I'm sure that won't happen any time soon. But for me, after some post-draft reflection, and seeing what was left at that point in the 3rd round, I'm not sure who the Bengals would have drafted that would have made a more immediate impact than Shipley should.

Call it the curse of a well built roster.

[derekshank]

You're projecting Caldwell and Shipley will combine for 60 catches....without much opportunity for more. But Caldwell caught 51 balls last year, so the net gain from the burned 3rd round pick would be just 9 receptions and roughly 100 yards receiving.

Not a fair assessment. Caldwell caught 51 balls because of how woefully inadequate Coles turned out to be. If Bryant shows up at all, there was no way Caldwell was going to repeat those numbers regardless. There are simply too many other people ahead of him on the depth chart with comparable attributes.

Shipley? Not so much. So, unless Shipley performs even better than I thought and keeps Caldwell off of the field completely, they should split time on the field depending on the situation. And the passing game will benefit for having a variety of weapons with unique abilities.

[HairOnFire]

As I recall the skill set Bengal coaches identified as woefully lacking was related to deep speed, and the need to produce more chunk plays. So knowing that, please help me understand why they drafted a 1st round TE with marginal speed, and two WR's who couldn't break 4.6 in the 40.

I will have to take your word for that. I don't recall the coaches specifying what was wrong with the passing game.

I'm guessing it was more than one thing, but Marvin specifically mentioned the need for more "chunk plays". His words. And Brat repeatedly whined about the loss of Chris Henry and his ability to stretch the field...sadly, without actually producing.

In my opinion, the greatest weakness of the passing game was the lack of a real weapon in the middle.

While Gresham does appear to serve that role nicely, do you prefer the Bengals have all of their eggs in that basket?

Honestly, it already looked like a full basket to me....perhaps because I actually expected them to use the weapons they've already drafted.

But they don't do that, do they?

What if he [Gresham] gets injured? What if he's a bust?

Then trot out the TE that you burned a 3rd round pick on the year before.

I'm not asking you to fall in love with this pick... as I'm sure that won't happen any time soon.

Here's the thing. I don't love the pick, and I'm not likely to change my mind until Shipley does something....which would be more than most of this teams WR picks ever get a chance to do. But getting past that for a moment, reading how many supporters of the pick actually agree with me that it was indeed a luxury pick that won't result in much production, well....I'm starting to get mthat angry Hulk feeling again. And that's because most of you seem to agree with me each step of the way...until the very end.

Call it the curse of a well built roster.

That's just the point. When it comes to the passing game they never actually build anything. Instead, they tinker like a watchmaker building a masterpiece so spectacular in design and detail that it can never be finished. And it can't be finished precisely because they keep rejecting the parts they not only hand picked, but actually purchased.

[HairOnFire]

Not a fair assessment. Caldwell caught 51 balls because of how woefully inadequate Coles turned out to be. If Bryant shows up at all, there was no way Caldwell was going to repeat those numbers regardless.

No? Isn't the very definition of playmaking related to greater success resulting in more plays and more opportunities overall?

So, unless Shipley performs even better than I thought and keeps Caldwell off of the field completely, they should split time on the field depending on the situation.

So a different offensive weapon is to be deployed for every conceivable situation, yet I'm not supposed to expect any significant gain in overall production at the position?

[HoosierCat]

Here's the thing. I don't love the pick, and I'm not likely to change my mind until Shipley does something....which would be more than most of this teams WR picks ever get a chance to do.

And those picks are...? I mean, it's not like, say, Washington didn't get a chance to show his stuff, he ran out his rookie contract. Henry was making progress, but obviously that's done now. Caldwell still has a shot. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but this all boils down to Simpson, right? Yeah it sucks that he is apparently a bust, but I have a hard time complaining about his lack of chances two years on.