Palmer must improve

[HoosierCat]

Kaz, look at your list and ask yourself how our offensive vs. defensive picks have worked out...and where our big needs are. We are where we are because our investments in the offense have not panned out. Now we are in desperation mode...either hoping for a draft miracle or that someone like Jerome Simpson goes boom. Like I said, I'll be happy and thrilled to see it, but I've learned through long experience not to count on it.

[redsbengalsbucks]

Even landing a guy like Dez Bryant probably doesn't change things this year, he'd need time to develop.

I disagree on this point.

That's fine. That's why I qualified my comment with "probably." It's possible Dez (or any other WR the Bengals take in the opening rounds) will make a significant impact this season, but the odds are against it. And many years of following the Bengals have made me very, very, very leery of expecting miracles in the draft.

I think you will all be pleasantly surprised with matt jones this year.

You can add me to this camp, he was just coming into his own as a WR, when he had the off-feild problems. If he stays out of trouble and works hard he will be the CedBen find of the offseason.

[James_Brooks21]

Kaz, look at your list and ask yourself how our offensive vs. defensive picks have worked out...and where our big needs are. We are where we are because our investments in the offense have not panned out. Now we are in desperation mode...either hoping for a draft miracle or that someone like Jerome Simpson goes boom. Like I said, I'll be happy and thrilled to see it, but I've learned through long experience not to count on it.

Desperation mode? I don't think so, we have a good running back and two good receivers, will the real Carson please stand up. All we have to do is draft Gresham and we are set, Gresham is not projected in anybody's mock draft to be gone before we pick. They can come back in round two or three and grab a receiver if they feel they need one, Damian Williams out of USC would be a great pick up in one of those rounds and would be an upgrade over any receiver not named Bryant or OchoCinco on the roster. If Dez Bryant is there when they pick hey what a good situation that they found themselves in they still would need better play at that TE spot. Bryant is a lot better then Bengals fans seem to give him credit for. I actually think getting a safety is a bigger need at this point then another receiver, Crocker and Roy Williams aren't keeping any offensive coordinators up late at night game planning for either one of them.

[ShulaSteakhouse]

That's fine. That's why I qualified my comment with "probably." It's possible Dez (or any other WR the Bengals take in the opening rounds) will make a significant impact this season, but the odds are against it. And many years of following the Bengals have made me very, very, very leery of expecting miracles in the draft.

Outside of Chris Perry selection what horrible picks have we had in the 1st round under Marvin lewis era?

-Carson Palmer

-Chris Perry (Injury Prone)

-David Pollack(Can't fault Front Office when a freak accident and player brakes his neck)

-Jonathan Joseph

-Leon Hall

-Keith Rivers

-Andre Smith (Some people will bitch but it's to early to bitch about him.)

Not that bad IMO when comes to first rounders 1 Bust and 1 freakish Career ending injury,It's the 2nd rounders that worry me

Rey Maualuga Stud Muffin who can hopefully keep himself out of trouble from here on out.

Jerome SImpson Bust

Kenny Irons Bust

Andrew Whitworth Franchise Linemen

Odell Thurman Bust

Keiwan Ratliff ,Madieu Williams One was burnt Toast and the Other had 4 solid years and gone

Eric Steinbach 4 Years and gone

I think Madeiu and Steinbach were only here for 3 years right?

Need to sign these 2nd round picks, in particular lineman, to 5 year deals, unless there's some reason they just can't do that.

As for Palmer, he'll get better when his blocking, system and WR's do. You surround Palmer like you do Manning, and he'll be fine.

[BengalPimp]

Even landing a guy like Dez Bryant probably doesn't change things this year, he'd need time to develop.

I disagree on this point.

That's fine. That's why I qualified my comment with "probably." It's possible Dez (or any other WR the Bengals take in the opening rounds) will make a significant impact this season, but the odds are against it. And many years of following the Bengals have made me very, very, very leery of expecting miracles in the draft.

I think you will all be pleasantly surprised with matt jones this year.

You can add me to this camp, he was just coming into his own as a WR, when he had the off-feild problems. If he stays out of trouble and works hard he will be the CedBen find of the offseason.

You want production out of Matt Jones? Replace the Chalk Line at the back of the End Zone with Coke....He'll score every time(Then proceed to snort the Line)

J/K I'm giving the dude a clean slate for now. I want to see what his production is like first.

[HairOnFire]

Replacing Henry isn't half as important as the other wide receiver we didn't have last year.

Wasn't it you, amongst others, who claimed Henry was the key to everything in the passing game? And didn't you claim Henry's lack of production while playing this supposedly key role should be ignored because of the way his size and speed opened up things for the other guys?

I look at our WR corps right now and I don't see a damn thing to scare any defensive coordinator we might face.

Everything depends on Antonio Bryant returning to his 2008 form.

Look at it this way. Using Pro Football Focus rankings those opposing defensive coordinators would be facing 2009 14th ranked WR(Chad), the 2008 12th ranked WR(Antonio Bryant), and perhaps even the 2008 14th ranked WR(Matt Jones). By comparison, Housh was the 29th ranked WR in his last season in Cincy and he fell to 87th ranked in his Seahawk debut. As for the so-called key to everything? Chris Henry didn't play enough to be ranked last year, but in 2008 he did. (96th)

And let's not even start about the TE slot as regards the passing game.

Exactly. Let's not start. Rather, let's wait until AFTER the Bengals reach for Gresham.

Because what's a few days amongst friends?

For me, the bottom line is that the team's biggest weakness is its passing game, and I don't think they've done bubkis to improve it.

Q.- What's the easiest way to spot a true Bastard Son of Paul Brown?

A.- Listen for oft-repeated Zombie-like mutterings of...."More pass catchers. More pass catchers. More pass catchers."

[HoosierCat]

Wasn't it you, amongst others, who claimed Henry was the key to everything in the passing game? And didn't you claim Henry's lack of production while playing this supposedly key role should be ignored because of the way his size and speed opened up things for the other guys?

Yup, and I was right, too.

Everything depends on Antonio Bryant returning to his 2008 form.

Yup, here we go again, wishin' (Bryant), hopin' (Simpson) and prayin' (Crash Dummy). Same stuff, different season.

[HairOnFire]

All we have to do is draft Gresham and we are set....

The Bengals have made plenty of moves that lessen the draft need at several positions, but yeah.....the TE position wasn't one of them.

...Gresham is not projected in anybody's mock draft to be gone before we pick.

IMHO that's because he's not really worthy of the 21st slot, but is projected to be drafted as early as that due to the Bengals perceived need at that position specifically and in the passing game in general. It's a near perfect fit if value is ignored, and there's the rub because the Bengals are actually in perfect postion to do just that should they want to.

They can come back in round two or three and grab a receiver if they feel they need one....

Knowing who we are I'd say it's more than possible. That said, I'd hate to see the Bengals reach for offensive player after offensive player as one of the best defensive drafts in decades slowly drifts by.

[HairOnFire]

Wasn't it you, amongst others, who claimed Henry was the key to everything in the passing game? And didn't you claim Henry's lack of production while playing this supposedly key role should be ignored because of the way his size and speed opened up things for the other guys?

Yup, and I was right, too.

How could you not be right?

After all, you've now named three players as being the key to the Bengals passing game. First it was Chad, then it was Henry, and now it's the departed Housh.

You're destined to stumble upon the correct answer one of these times, right?

[HoosierCat]

After all, you've now named three players as being the key to the Bengals passing game. First it was Chad, then it was Henry, and now it's the departed Housh.

Yup, and how many of those we got left? And what else is there? Uh-huh. Tell me again about how we don't need "pass-catchers."

[HairOnFire]

After all, you've now named three players as being the key to the Bengals passing game. First it was Chad, then it was Henry, and now it's the departed Housh.

Yup, and how many of those we got left?

But there has never been three different keys to the passing game. All along there's been only one correct answer and I remind you now that he's still here.

And what else is there? Uh-huh.

Why would I list what else is there if all you're going to do is say something like...."I'll believe it when I see it."

You see the thing you're conveniently forgetting is you haven't seen anything yet because the WR2 is a new veteran starter, and that act alone qualifies as more than bupkis.

Tell me again about how we don't need "pass-catchers."

More, more, more?

The Bengals still have Chad, the real key to their passing game. Plus, they've added two veteran wideouts who should be able to help quickly. And the Bengals already have three young wideouts still on the roster, including two high draft picks, and a 2nd year TE who was supposed to be the answer to at least one of the questions you keep asking.

BTW, if we're going to have this discussion every year, and we seem to, it might speed things up if I cut to the chase and ask just how many new pass catchers do you think this team...(cough).....really needs? One, two, or three?

And does that include TE?

[HoosierCat]

But there has never been three different keys to the passing game. All along there's been only one correct answer and I remind you now that he's still here.

Despite your constant urging he be traded, so I guess that's one for Mikey's side, eh?

You see the thing you're conveniently forgetting is you haven't seen anything yet because the WR2 is a new veteran starter, and that act alone qualifies as more than bupkis.

That sounds familiar. I think I heard it last year. I may have even said it. Ah, well, live and learn.

More, more, more?

I'll put up no resistance/If Mike will go the distance/We've got a pass to catch/Carson needs assistance! (over to you, Rocky)

how many new pass catchers do you think this team...(cough).....really needs? One, two, or three?

And does that include TE?

Three should do. And yes, that can include TE.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

The Bengals still have Chad, the real key to their passing game. Plus, they've added two veteran wideouts who should be able to help quickly. And the Bengals already have three young wideouts still on the roster, including two high draft picks, and a 2nd year TE who was supposed to be the answer to at least one of the questions you keep asking.

Sometimes you can pick up a good player, but he's not the right player. What Carson was clearly missing last year was a possession receiver who knew how to find holes in the zone, who knew when to break off a route. Coles, even if his skills weren't diminished, obviously was not that guy. I don't think Bryant is that guy either, although certainly they needed a field-stretcher too. As you say, I'm hoping that the "TJ" role can be filled by either Caldwell or *gulp* Chase, but I'm not sold on either. If those two can't do it, they need a guy who can get open in space, and be on the same page with Carson.

If we don't have that guy, expect a repeat of last year.

[HairOnFire]

But there has never been three different keys to the passing game. All along there's been only one correct answer and I remind you now that he's still here.

Despite your constant urging he be traded, so I guess that's one for Mikey's side, eh?

Exactly. Right or wrong, the decision to keep the real key to the passing game even after he tanked a season rests upon the bald head of Mike Brown.

You see the thing you're conveniently forgetting is you haven't seen anything yet because the WR2 is a new veteran starter, and that act alone qualifies as more than bupkis.

That sounds familiar. I think I heard it last year. I may have even said it. Ah, well, live and learn.

As I recall you did say it, and so did I and dozens of others, and eventually the time will come when we'll be right when we say it. And in this example that means taking another shot on a veteran WR who should be able to contribute early, which is something else we've both said. Where we differ is you're still asking for more as if we hadn't already gotten what we were asking for in the first place. I say the job has been filled, again, and the teams attention is best directed elsewhere.

how many new pass catchers do you think this team...(cough).....really needs? One, two, or three?

And does that include TE?

Three should do. And yes, that can include TE.

A fairly typical response from a Bastard Son of Paul Brown. More, even more, and then more again. Of course. Why ask for just one when it's just as easy to ask for three?

[ArmyBengal]

I have no issue with the Bengals taking both a TE and a WR in the draft. In fact, I really hope we do. Where I differ is to take more than one WR when you know they aren't going to take both of them early on and then you are left taking a WR who's probably no better talent-wise than what we already have on the team. Pointless in my opinion. In regards to having another pass catching TE, why ?? Chase is exactly that guy and if there isn't the "do it all" type of tight end that can both catch and block, then the obvious choice would be to take strictly a blocking tight end to cover if Kelly doesn't come back and even if he does to provide for the future of the position.

I'm actually comfortable with Caldwell in the slot and having both Chad and Bryant should open things up for him. He flashed last year, so another year in the system and the work he's putting in certainly won't hurt.

[HairOnFire]

I have no issue with the Bengals taking both a TE and a WR in the draft. In fact, I really hope we do.

I think a TE is a given, probably early, and we'll all shrug when we think about how poor the value of the pick will be. As for WR, I'm perfectly fine with the idea of adding none in the draft.

Where I differ is to take more than one WR when you know they aren't going to take both of them early on and then you are left taking a WR who's probably no better talent-wise than what we already have on the team. Pointless in my opinion.

Sadly, it's more than an opinion. It's a proven fact....likely to be ignored yet again.

[BengalByTheBay]

I'm actually comfortable with Caldwell in the slot and having both Chad and Bryant should open things up for him. He flashed last year, so another year in the system and the work he's putting in certainly won't hurt.

While I don't necessarily conclude that this means we shouldn't look to draft at TE (although a balanced one rather than a one-dimensional pass catcher), I completely agree that Caldwell seems to be getting somewhat lost in the shuffle here. I'm not really sure why there's such a consensus that the best slot guy isn't already on the team. Caldwell dropped off toward the end of the year somewhat last season, and I can see why that would disappoint some, but he has skills and has shown the ability to make big plays. As much as anything, it's gotta be that people want to see more consistency. Fine -- but he's a young player and you would think consistency would come last. This will be his 3rd year and I don't see any reason that he can't fulfill reasonable expectations this season.

[BengalPimp]

And let's not even start about the TE slot as regards the passing game.

Exactly. Let's not start. Rather, let's wait until AFTER the Bengals reach for Gresham.

I'd be perfectly fine with that. The dude will be a STUD ! Teams like San Diego, Dallas, Atlanta, Texans, have shown you don't need 3 good WR's (or even 2) if you have a Good TE. Those teams all have 1 Good WR, 1 TE, and just decent receivers after that. Those are some pretty good offenses.

Show me a TE who can catch 60 + balls and score 8-10 TD's, and I'll show you playoff victories with WR corp we already have.

Oh yeah, and it's only a "reach" on draft day.....After a season or two, it will be a bargain.

[Kazkal]

I wouldn't mind seeing Greshem,Hopefully Brat is will study the Chargers & colts offensive Schemes to get ideas how to use a mismatch like that..

I just prefer him as a plan D (if Mays,Thomas & Byrant are gone pretty much a four way tie for Greshem,Kindle,Iupati & Pouncey.)

[HoosierCat]

A fairly typical response from a Bastard Son of Paul Brown. More, even more, and then more again.

You seem unable to comprehend the fact it's no longer 2005. Offensive skill players are no longer "luxuries." Our only proven wideout will be a free agent next season, unless the Bengals decide to pick up mid-30's WRs $5 million option. Behind him, we have nothing but wishes, hopes and prayers. The running game -- the centerpiece of what little offense we do have -- has no other every-down option should Benson get hurt (which hasn't exactly been uncommon in his career). And he's in a contract year. The tight end position is as vacant as ever. And Palmer's clock continues to tick. Meanwhile, the defense, thanks to copious draft and free agent support in recent years, is now a top-ten unit. More: it showed solid depth last year as well.

It's time to put tired old rants to bed. The offense needs to be rebuilt.

[HairOnFire]

The offense needs to be constantly rebuilt.

Fixed it for ya.

[HairOnFire]

You seem unable to comprehend the fact it's no longer 2005.

Actually, I'm fully aware of the fact that the 2010 season awaits featuring the bruising defense and pounding running game of the defending AFCN Champion Cincinnati Bengals, a feat they accomplished without much help from their passing game. So save the sad story about passing attacks from yesteryear because I like winning a whole lot more than I like throwing the ball around the yard to a bunch of divas.

Offensive skill players are no longer "luxuries."

They are when you demand 3 or 4 new ones every season. And they most certainly are a luxury when so many of the WR's selected NEVER play a meaningful role within the teams passing offense.

Our only proven wideout will be a free agent next season, unless the Bengals decide to pick up mid-30's WRs $5 million option.

Oh, they'll do just that. And you know they will.

It's time to put tired old rants to bed.

Sure.

So here's my new rant.

Know who you are and resolve to do what you do even better. Become elite. Resist the siren song of attempting to be equally good at everything, especially if your attempts to become more balanced prove themselves to be far too costly and prone to disaster.

Embrace the grind.

[HoosierCat]

You seem unable to comprehend the fact it's no longer 2005.

Actually, I'm fully aware of the fact that the 2010 season awaits featuring the bruising defense and pounding running game of the defending AFCN Champion Cincinnati Bengals, a feat they accomplished without much help from their passing game. So save the sad story about passing attacks from yesteryear because I like winning a whole lot more than I like throwing the ball around the yard to a bunch of divas.

Ah. I see. I stand corrected. You seem unable to comprehend the fact it's no longer 1960. It's a passing league now. All embrace the grind will get us is one-and-done, again. Even having a D equal to the '85 Bears isn't going to get the job done when the offense can't manage more than a couple scores a game. It isn't about throwing the ball around to a buck of divas, it's about being able to throw the ball effectively at all. Right now, the Bengals can't, and until they fix that, all else is vanity, vanity.

[HairOnFire]

You seem unable to comprehend the fact it's no longer 1960.

You can pretend I'm stuck in 1948 for all I care. All I know is the Bengals won a division championship and a playoff berth using a power running game so effective and cheaply constructed that it quickly surpassed the passing game in terms of importance.

It's a passing league now.

Roughly half of the teams who made the playoffs last season had miserable passing attacks. But most important, while the Bengals were mostly inept when attempting to win games by passing the ball...they were undefeated against their primary AFCN rivals. So tell me again how emphasizing the running game and the defense isn't paying huge dividends already, and could pay even greater dividends if those productive units were built into elite squads by adding better talent.

All embrace the grind will get us is one-and-done, again.

But the Jets didn't go one-and-done, did they? Rather, running behind a vastly more talented offensive line and an even better defense than the Bengals can muster they not only beat the Bengals at their own game, but managed to beat the Chargers, one of those pass happy high scoring teams guys like you claim can't be beaten by a Cro-Mag team in this new age of high flying poofery.

It isn't about throwing the ball around to a buck of divas, it's about being able to throw the ball effectively at all. Right now, the Bengals can't, and until they fix that, all else is vanity, vanity.

Well, if they can't throw the ball effectively despite using all of those draft picks you claimed had to be used two years ago what makes you think three more draft picks being burned on the very same positions will have a better outcome? Not to mention how you've already waxed poetically about how none of the rookie wideouts available in the coming draft are likely to be of any help for several years. So using your own rant, how does any of this help you against Drew Brees this year? And isn't it more likely the Bengals could get more immediate help against those pass happy teams from draft picks used to improve the pass rush or in the defensive secondary, rather than three more receivers who you admit won't be ready to contribute much and probably won't play more than a few snaps?

As for vanity, I remind you once again how the Bengals aren't the inept team you seem to be implying, but are in fact the defending AFCN champions.

Embrace the grind AND the crown that comes with it.

[HoosierCat]

All I know is the Bengals won a division championship and a playoff berth using a power running game so effective and cheaply constructed that it quickly surpassed the passing game in terms of importance.

Yup, and now the next step is to rebuild the passing game.

Roughly half of the teams who made the playoffs last season had miserable passing attacks.

Well, if you define 3 as "roughly half" of 12, yes. Eight of the top 10 passing teams made the playoffs, versus four of the top 10 running games. The worst passing game was (surprise!) ours, while the worst two rushing teams made the tourney.

But the Jets didn't go one-and-done, did they? Rather, running behind a vastly more talented offensive line and an even better defense than the Bengals can muster they not only beat the Bengals at their own game, but managed to beat the Chargers, one of those pass happy high scoring teams guys like you claim can't be beaten by a Cro-Mag team in this new age of high flying poofery.

How many Lombardis did the Jets win last season again?

Well, if they can't throw the ball effectively despite using all of those draft picks you claimed had to be used two years ago what makes you think three more draft picks being burned on the very same positions will have a better outcome?

Oh, I dunno, maybe because we'd get some guys with talent this time? What makes you think drafting a safety or DE wont just land us another Lamont Thompson or Jason Buck?

Not to mention how you've already waxed poetically about how none of the rookie wideouts available in the coming draft are likely to be of any help for several years

Yup, so no better time than the present. Meanwhile, we can keep the winning ways going with our already solid D and running game, right?

As for vanity, I remind you once again how the Bengals aren't the inept team you seem to be implying,

I seem to be implying nothing of the sort. The Bengals are a good team, which is precisely why they can afford to take some shots at shoring up the weakest part of their game. If they succeed, they'll have the tools to do some damage in the playoffs and maybe win it all. If they don't, well, they could still get the North crown, so you'll still be satisfied, right?