Any chance Andre Smith is signed...ever?

[walzav29]

I'm done dreaming about Smith. He won't be around until week 8. AC it is!

[ArmyBengal]

It will get done and when it does, everyone will be happy, and we will move on to the next thing to talk about.

Here's to hoping it's sooner rather than later...

[Kazkal]

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/teams/page/CIN

Their far apart and I guess haven't talked since Monday...Also seems that the browns are offering 5million less then what bey got....

[Bearcat1975]

To review:

The Bengals pick 6th.

According to parties familiar with the negotiations, the Bengals have offered of $33 million. That's $5.25 million less than what the seventh pick, Darrius Heyward-Bey, signed for with Oakland.

This must be more of Katie and Troy's "shrewd negotiating" that I have been hearing so much about here. ...to the detriment of the team's on field success,(business) as usual.

How are you going to offer the 6th pick 5 mil less than the 7th pick? F'n typical Bengal Fail.

[Ickey44]

To review:

The Bengals pick 6th.

According to parties familiar with the negotiations, the Bengals have offered of $33 million. That's $5.25 million less than what the seventh pick, Darrius Heyward-Bey, signed for with Oakland.

This must be more of Katie and Troy's "shrewd negotiating" that I have been hearing so much about here. ...to the detriment of the team's on field success,(business) as usual.

How are you going to offer the 6th pick 5 mil less than the 7th pick? F'n typical Bengal Fail.

To review:

You are a tool.

This must be more of your "insightful posting" that I have been hearing so much about here. It appears to be a detriment to the board, as usual.

Why do you keep coming here and saying the same s**t over and over? F'n typical Groundhog Fail.

[gregstephens]

To review:

The Bengals pick 6th.

According to parties familiar with the negotiations, the Bengals have offered of $33 million. That's $5.25 million less than what the seventh pick, Darrius Heyward-Bey, signed for with Oakland.

This must be more of Katie and Troy's "shrewd negotiating" that I have been hearing so much about here. ...to the detriment of the team's on field success,(business) as usual.

How are you going to offer the 6th pick 5 mil less than the 7th pick? F'n typical Bengal Fail.

Yeah, stuff that.

You are using the RAIDERS as a measuring stick? You're as delusioned as Crabtree. The fact the Raiders even drafted Bey that high should show you they are not to set the bar.

Got an idea. Go over to a Raiders forum, claim to be a fan, and bash them for their idiotic ownership. We've seen enough of that act here.

[Kazkal]

To review:

The Bengals pick 6th.

According to parties familiar with the negotiations, the Bengals have offered of $33 million. That's $5.25 million less than what the seventh pick, Darrius Heyward-Bey, signed for with Oakland.

This must be more of Katie and Troy's "shrewd negotiating" that I have been hearing so much about here. ...to the detriment of the team's on field success,(business) as usual.

How are you going to offer the 6th pick 5 mil less than the 7th pick? F'n typical Bengal Fail.

Yeah, stuff that.

You are using the RAIDERS as a measuring stick? You're as delusioned as Crabtree. The fact the Raiders even drafted Bey that high should show you they are not to set the bar.

Got an idea. Go over to a Raiders forum, claim to be a fan, and bash them for their idiotic ownership. We've seen enough of that act here.

With that being said can we jsut pay the guy and get him in camp >_<

[HairOnFire]

This must be more of Katie and Troy's "shrewd negotiating" that I have been hearing so much about here.

Hearing so much about.....HERE?

You're a blatant liar.

In fact, I'm betting you can't find a single example of that particular type of praise being posted anywhere on this message board.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

You are using the RAIDERS as a measuring stick? You're as delusioned as Crabtree. The fact the Raiders even drafted Bey that high should show you they are not to set the bar.

Got an idea. Go over to a Raiders forum, claim to be a fan, and bash them for their idiotic ownership. We've seen enough of that act here.

Doesn't matter - fact is, the 7th pick still got what he got, and there's no way an agent representing a pick in front of him will take less. Is it stupid that DHB got picked #7? Yes. But it's still how it is. Just like Crabman isn't getting #3 money at #10. You are what your slot tells you you are (unless you're a QB).

I'd thought Keels was maybe trying to make it rain, but if the issue is Mikey lowballing, that's irritating. Start with an offer above what DHB got and get down to business.

[HairOnFire]

I'd thought Keels was maybe trying to make it rain, but if the issue is Mikey lowballing, that's irritating. Start with an offer above what DHB got and get down to business.

I'm not saying I always like it, but it's always been Mikes habit to make an initial lowball offer and then in negotiations surrender salary and guaranteed money in exchange for tougher performance and playing time incentive triggers.

Personally, I have no problem with the above as long as the Bengals limit their demands to individual standards. The real problems seem to arise when they attempt to link incentive triggers to team rankings....something few players are willing to agree to. For example, they once attempted to link Justin Smith's incentive triggers to team defensive rankings rather than the playing time and individual sack and tackle standards that were eventually agreed upon. That said, the Bengals steadfast refusal to soften their stance on Akili Smith's incentive triggers was rumored to have saved them more than 16 million bucks over the term of the contract, and that ain't peanuts.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

I'm not saying I always like it, but it's always been Mikes habit to make an initial lowball offer and then in negotiations surrender salary and guaranteed money in exchange for tougher performance and playing time incentive triggers.

Negotiating guaranteed money against escalators definitely makes sense, but you have to make a real offer. I think you lose credibility when the opening offer is just stupid.

Regarding the sense of negotiating escalators - I think some of it might depend on position. We're talking about an OT - a position with a low bust rate and few measurables. With a QB, you're right, I want to cover my ass.

Then again, they do have Collins, so it may be they don't care if Smith's at camp as long as he's there in time to backup should somebody go down. But if you do that, you're effectively paying him starter money for half a year or so while he backs up. That ends up becoming a case of penny-wise/pound-foolish - you might save a million, but you waste much more. Wouldn't be a new one for Mikey, who pays $100M/year on players and skimps on their medical care.

Personally, I have no problem with the above as long as the Bengals limit their demands to individual standards. The real problems seem to arise when they attempt to link incentive triggers to team rankings....something few players are willing to agree to.

I thought that was actually against the CBA these days. Wouldn't be the first time that one of Mikey's favorite tactics got banned.

[HairOnFire]

Negotiating guaranteed money against escalators definitely makes sense, but you have to make a real offer. I think you lose credibility when the opening offer is just stupid.

But when was the opening offer made? All we've heard is a rumor about how far apart the two sides are now...after DHB inked with Oakland. Does anyone know what Keel's opening bid was? Or if either side has bothered countering?

Regarding the sense of negotiating escalators - I think some of it might depend on position. We're talking about an OT - a position with a low bust rate and few measurables. With a QB, you're right, I want to cover my ass.

Just guessing, but playing time is likely to be the measurable the Bengals are most interested in, and there's the rub...because a long holdout limits Smith's ability to play quickly.

Then again, they do have Collins, so it may be they don't care if Smith's at camp as long as he's there in time to backup should somebody go down. But if you do that, you're effectively paying him starter money for half a year or so while he backs up. That ends up becoming a case of penny-wise/pound-foolish - you might save a million, but you waste much more.

True, but the other side often risks as much. Because you just described a scenario where Smith likely wouldn't play enough snaps to trigger an incentive package based upon playing time. And there's the rub because the incentive package typically involves HUGE coin. Worse, the longer Smith holds out the closer he and Keels come to an undefined tipping point that results in most of the leverage shifting back to the Bengals. And yeah, it shifts back to them for the worst reason any of us can think of.

That being, the player is no longer in a position to help the team this year.

[ArmyBengal]

Call it what you want and be pissed off all you like, but I fully expect this to go on as long as the team thinks they can do without his services and still see him get enough time to be the week one starter. Like it or not, it's just how it is with the team we love.

[Bearcat1975]

This must be more of Katie and Troy's "shrewd negotiating" that I have been hearing so much about here.

Hearing so much about.....HERE?

You're a blatant liar.

In fact, I'm betting you can't find a single example of that particular type of praise being posted anywhere on this message board.

...it was in the FIRST thread I even bothered to look at. Once again you call me a liar, once again you are wrong.

It's the way all 32 NFL teams do business, -HOF

No it most certainly is NOT the way all 32 teams do business. Liar.

If anything, the Bengals are a little too good at negotiating. -CentralOhioBengal

That must be why Smith is in camp. Oh wait... they are lowballing him, I forgot. AKA "shrewdly negotiating."

/>http://forums.bengalszone.com/index.php?showtopic=19926&hl=katie&st=20

And who f'n cares if the Raiders paid too much. Smith is slotted between 5 and 7, and therefore needs to be paid in between the 5th and 7th pick. Any other philosophy is a recipe for a long holdout. At least a few people here are willing to acknowledge that fact. To the rest of you, do you ever get tired of being wrong?

The fact that the Bengals are offering Smith 5 million LESS than the pick right after him, and that they haven't talked for a week, is infuriating as a Bengals fan. But I think some of you so called fans are so used to this type of horses**t from the Brown family, that you have ceased to recognize it as horses**t anymore.

But that's exactly what it is. Counter-Productive, Mike Brown Bank Account Padding horses**t.

In a league of unprecedented parity, Mike Brown continually finds new ways to handicap his own franchise for personal profit.

[ArmyBengal]

I forgot to add that I do think it's bullsh*t the Bengals started their offer where they did though. The new blurb form PFT kind of irritates me.

As evidence begins to emerge regarding the specific numbers relating to the negotiation between the Bengals and tackle Andre Smith, the sixth overall pick in the draft, a source with knowledge of the situation tells us that the holdout could last into the regular season.

Joe Reedy of the Cincinnati Enquirer reports that the Bengals have offered Smith a contract worth $33 million, $5.25 million less than the base value of the contract given to Raiders receiver Darrius Heyward-Bey, the seventh pick in the 2009 draft.

Per Reedy, Smith's camp is looking for something slightly greater than Heyward-Bey's deal.

In this instance, waiting to work out a deal with Smith has hurt the Bengals. If they'd moved before Heyward-Bey had signed, the Bengals likely could have gotten Smith for a reasonable increase over the base value of the contract given to last year's sixth overall pick, which a league source tells us was $32.5 million, not $40 million.

Instead, the Bengals are now faced with the floor created by the Heyward-Bey contract, and Smith most likely won't be accepting a penny less.

Really, why should he? For the same reason that receiver Michael Crabtree should respect the slotting system, so should the Bengals.

/>http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/08/07/andre-smith-holdout-could-last-into-the-regular-season/

[membengal]

To recap, since a lot of folk are ignoring it, the Bengals care what Al Davis did to the slot, as do the five teams picking after the Raiders.

The thing has been f**ked up by Al Davis and it is going to take awhile to sort out, probably longer than usual. I thought everyone was ready for that likelihood...

[Bearcat1975]

To recap, since a lot of folk are ignoring it, the Bengals care what Al Davis did to the slot, as do the five teams picking after the Raiders.

The thing has been f**ked up by Al Davis and it is going to take awhile to sort out, probably longer than usual. I thought everyone was ready for that likelihood...

I figured it would be a league-wide holdout due to a number of factors, the primary one being the uncapped year on the horizon. The fact that 5 and 7 have been slotted and Mike Brown is offering 5 million less than the 7 slot is disappointing.

Smith should be in camp.

The worst part is how and why he is being lowballed.

[membengal]

#6 isn't slotted until the Bengals agree it's slotted. You can yell at the moon for rising each night if you want, but that's how it has always been with the Bengals in such negotiations. And, again, it is going to be worse this year because it is clear the Bengals are NOT the only team fighting the "slotting" foisted on them by Oakland, since there has been so little movement behind the Raiders as well.

It's going to be to the end of camp, like I guessed, and probably longer.

Eventually he will come in. They almost always do. And given Smith's well chronicled conditioning "issues", I don't see him as likely to go all "Hunley" and wait until 2010. He might be 600 pounds by then...

[HairOnFire]

Once again you call me a liar, once again you are wrong.

Actually, you've been proven to be a liar several times already, and no amount of quotes taken out of context is ever going to change that.

[

The fact that the Bengals are offering Smith 5 million LESS than the pick right after him, and that they haven't talked for a week, is infuriating as a Bengals fan.

That's probably the first honest remark you've made in a month. Props.

I think some of you so called fans are so used to this type of horses**t from the Brown family, that you have ceased to recognize it as horses**t anymore.

Actually, I agree it's horses**t. Always have. That said, I doubt anyone here needs to read constant reminders stating as much from someone rarely adds any real information to any thread, and whose only talent seems to be limited to repeating the same familiar complaints uttered previously by thousands of others.

[HairOnFire]

The worst part is how and why he is being lowballed.

Define lowball.

Even the sources claiming the Bengals are lowballing Smith use numbers that show the Bengals initial offer was 500k greater than the #6 slot earned last season.

[DC_Bengals_Fan]

Just guessing, but playing time is likely to be the measurable the Bengals are most interested in, and there's the rub...because a long holdout limits Smith's ability to play quickly...And there's the rub because the incentive package typically involves HUGE coin. Worse, the longer Smith holds out the closer he and Keels come to an undefined tipping point that results in most of the leverage shifting back to the Bengals. And yeah, it shifts back to them for the worst reason any of us can think of.

That being, the player is no longer in a position to help the team this year.

See, I just don't get the point even if I see the mechanics of what they're doing. You intentionally make the player less valuable to you so you can pay him less. Seems a little too scorched-earth where everybody loses. I guess to me, I either want him or I don't. If they do want him, they should negotiate in good faith, which means at a minimum respecting the reality of the de facto slotting system. If they don't want him, they should have traded out of the #6 slot.

Incidentally, I wouldn't have blamed them for trading out of the pick to the point of trading it straight-up for a pick around 15. The price of top-8 picks has been increasing waaaaay faster than either the salary cap, ticket prices, the TV contract, or inflation. I think as of this year or last, the value of a top-8 pick is actually negative, or getting close to it. But if you take him, sign him.

Regarding your worst-case scenario, I did think this might be the year that a team told a pick to pound sand and re-enter the draft. Wouldn't be surprised if it were the Bengals, though Crabman seems to be trying his best to be first.

[Kazkal]

Eventually he will come in. They almost always do. And given Smith's well chronicled conditioning "issues", I don't see him as likely to go all "Hunley" and wait until 2010. He might be 600 pounds by then...

Could be BS but from what I heard Hardknocks is gonna have what Andre is doing well waiting & It's not stuffing his face with cheeseburgers btw..

[membengal]

Eventually he will come in. They almost always do. And given Smith's well chronicled conditioning "issues", I don't see him as likely to go all "Hunley" and wait until 2010. He might be 600 pounds by then...

Could be BS but from what I heard Hardknocks is gonna have what Andre is doing well waiting & It's not stuffing his face with cheeseburgers btw..

I should certainly hope so, given the millions waiting for him. He takes a pass on signing and it gets to be January? Let me know how his conditioning is then...

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Typical Bengals.

[HairOnFire]

See, I just don't get the point even if I see the mechanics of what they're doing.

You and me both. But let's face it...we don't know what they're doing. All we've got is a thin rumor stating the Bengals and Smith are so many millions apart at this time. So ask yourself what happens next? I'm guessing the Bengals are more than willing to close the gap very quickly, but are "patiently" waiting for a reasonable counter offer from Keels or completed deals for #4 and #8.

Regarding your worst-case scenario, I did think this might be the year that a team told a pick to pound sand and re-enter the draft. Wouldn't be surprised if it were the Bengals, though Crabman seems to be trying his best to be first.

Smith will be a Bengal. I have no doubts about that whatsoever.