Bengals Free Agency Needs

[ArmyBengal]

While I agree that "most of the time" a team has to wait to reap the benefits of a draft class, there have been many teams that have immediately saw pro bowl level production out of their rookies that have helped turn the organization around. Hell even the Bengals got Odell Thurman to be considered for DROY when he came on board and the play of Chris Henry that year also aided in getting to the playoffs that year.

So while I'll do the sit and wait with these guys, it also really wouldn't suprise me to see them do MUCH better than expected. By that I mean instead of going 8-8, which is about what I'm seeing right now, 10-6 really wouldn't suprise me that much if we get what has been advertised by these guys and they get the chance to get on the field.

THAT IS BY NO MEANS SAYING WE ARE GOING TO THE PLAYOFFS !!!

[derekshank]

While I agree that "most of the time" a team has to wait to reap the benefits of a draft class, there have been many teams that have immediately saw pro bowl level production out of their rookies that have helped turn the organization around. Hell even the Bengals got Odell Thurman to be considered for DROY when he came on board and the play of Chris Henry that year also aided in getting to the playoffs that year.

So while I'll do the sit and wait with these guys, it also really wouldn't suprise me to see them do MUCH better than expected. By that I mean instead of going 8-8, which is about what I'm seeing right now, 10-6 really wouldn't suprise me that much if we get what has been advertised by these guys and they get the chance to get on the field.

THAT IS BY NO MEANS SAYING WE ARE GOING TO THE PLAYOFFS !!!

Yep. A. Smith, Maualuga, Michael Johnson, and Huber will all upgrades to what the Bengals had filling those roles last year. Add to that Luigs and Coffman most likely contributing at some point in the season, and there should be reason to expect a team worth watching. While that might not be saying a lot, and it might be too much to expect a winning record, it is a serious improvement no matter who scoffs.

And for the record, I'll take A. Smith, Maualuga, and Huber over anything the free agent market had to offer at those positions... and at a fraction of the cost. Too bad this isn't how you build a winner, huh?

[HoosierCat]

But my point is, we as Bengals fans are so used to hanging our hopes on the new draft class, that many of us don't realize that teams are actually supposed to draft for depth, not for saviors.

The idea that the draft is for depth is an oversimplification. Good teams can draft for the future by drafting to strengths and allowing guys to develop slowly. Case in point: Pitt's release of Foote because Timmons is, according to their staff, ready to start.

It's not about depth per se, it's about creating a conveyor belt at key positions. And Marvin has talked about that at various points in the past. But the Bengals haven't been able to put that into place because of a combination of injuries (not their fault) and implosions (some their fault) since the '05 season.

This year, finally, I see that process starting up again -- IF the team is smart. If Levi is healthy then there's no need to rush Smith into a starting spot (and the Bengals have never been anxious to start rookie tackles anyhow). Dhani and Rashad may not be the greatest LBs ever, but they allow the team to work Maualuga and Johnson in at their own pace. Even the much-derided WR duo of Simpson and Caldwell has a year under their belt now, and (fearless prediction here) Coles will take Ocho Bozo's job if Chad doesn't shape the hell up.

Injuries, which have been the bane of the team the last two years, could still blow things up. And Mikey could still cheap out like he did with Willie last year. But for the moment, the Bengals have played their cards well.

[Bearcat1975]

But my point is, we as Bengals fans are so used to hanging our hopes on the new draft class, that many of us don't realize that teams are actually supposed to draft for depth, not for saviors.

This is something we will never agree on. The closest we'll come is agreeing that too often fans want a rookie to turn a basement team into a Super Bowl contender. That's crazy expectations for a rookie. But where we part ways is what you think the draft is for. Teams that are perennial contenders draft very well. They get the majority of their star power from the first couple rounds of drafts, and turn the later round picks into important role players.

I actually agree with you here.

Teams that play the free agent market year after year rarely do anything but look good in the offseason (ie Washington and Cleveland).

Didn't the Redskins just go to the playoffs? I get what you mean though. The ones who pin there hope solely on free agency, or solely on the draft, cough Bengals, usually do not do very well.

Teams that use free agency to add depth and fill particular roles and build through the draft effectively are very successful (ie Pittsburgh, Philliy, and Indy).

True. Would be nice if the Bengals hopped on that train. Of course, you need a scouting department and a GM willing to swing fro the fences in free agency for that. Probably not going to happen here.

One team is able to turn another teams castoffs into pro bowlers while also building talent through the draft (New England)

see above.

Most teams are pretty hit and miss both through the draft and free agency, attempting to use both to gets wins as well as headlines. The Bengals happen to miss more than they hit. The reasons for this are many - but that doesn't change the fact that the most successful teams in the NFL use the draft as their primary means for acquiring talent.

Agreed. But the succesful ones don't expect all the draft picks to step in right away and be starters. We as Bengals fans have the first, what, 5 picks penciled in as starters. That is a recipe for disaster.

[Bearcat1975]

The idea that the draft is for depth is an oversimplification.

Agreed. It would have been more accurate to say that the idea in the short term is to draft for depth. Long term, sure you want them all to be starting pro-bowlers.

But, with a few notable exceptions, there is a huge learning curve before any of that happens. Many here are expecting 5 rookies to come in and "right the ship." Best case scenario to me involves a period of adjustment that will most likely be half the season, and will in all likelihood make this season a wash.

The conveyor belt you speak of...The Bengals would love to use that Steelers model that has worked so well for them I am sure. But again, not enough resources, then players get mad, then they influence the rookies and then we have the Bengal type of conveyor belt of confusion, frustration, and most importantly, losing.

Injuries blow up either because the Bengals don't have the proper resources, or they have REALLY bad luck. Its up to you to decide which one you believe but after enough seasons in a row, bad luck seems less ans less likely.

As far as Mikey cheaping out, we all know his routine lately.

1. Cut people right before the season starts.

2. Say that the money will be used "in case of injuries."

3. Lose a bunch of games, get injured.

4. Say that "there is no use wasting money by signing anyone at this point because its better to see what we have with the youth since we are out of it anyway."

5. Pocket the excess cash at the end of the season.

When it happens this season, it'll be the 3rd time in a row Mikey has done this.

[derekshank]

Agreed. But the succesful ones don't expect all the draft picks to step in right away and be starters. We as Bengals fans have the first, what, 5 picks penciled in as starters. That is a recipe for disaster.

First of all, you're exaggerating. Who has the Bengals starting 5 rookies? A. Smith and Maualuga are starters immediately... as is Huber (but I hardly count that as a "starter"). Michael Johnson will be a role player, as will Coffman. Luigs may be a starter by season's end, but he'll have to beat out Cook (who would have likely been the starter last year had it not been for injuries).

But what do you want me to say? The Bengals were a bad team last year. The teams that you reference that don't rely on rookies for starters are 1) teams that went deep into the playoffs, and thus have relatively few holes, and 2) are drafting very late where the pool for players to make an immediate impact is thinning out.

The Bengals both had many holes to fill, were drafting early enough to get a couple immediate impact type players, and were fortunate enough to get 3 players that had been projected at one time as 1st round picks... as well as the best punter in the draft.

I guess my point is this... There are a lot of teams that are a lot better than the Bengals would would immediately pencil in A. Smith, Maualuga, and Huber to start from day 1, as well as have Michael Johnson and Coffman play roles immediately. The Steelers and Ravens come to mind.

[HoosierCat]

But, with a few notable exceptions, there is a huge learning curve before any of that happens. Many here are expecting 5 rookies to come in and "right the ship." Best case scenario to me involves a period of adjustment that will most likely be half the season, and will in all likelihood make this season a wash.

Which would pretty much qualify as "righting the ship," wouldn't it?

The conveyor belt you speak of...The Bengals would love to use that Steelers model that has worked so well for them I am sure. But again, not enough resources, then players get mad, then they influence the rookies and then we have the Bengal type of conveyor belt of confusion, frustration, and most importantly, losing.

All true. But does that happen this year, when there is little reason to rush the newbs into action? I don't see any reason to believe so yet.

Injuries blow up either because the Bengals don't have the proper resources, or they have REALLY bad luck. Its up to you to decide which one you believe but after enough seasons in a row, bad luck seems less ans less likely.

Depends on what you mean by "enough bad seasons in a row." I've seen fire and I've seen rain, so to speak. 7-9? 4-11-1? I've seen worse, and with less hope in the months that followed.

As far as Mikey cheaping out, we all know his routine lately.

1. Cut people right before the season starts.

2. Say that the money will be used "in case of injuries."

3. Lose a bunch of games, get injured.

4. Say that "there is no use wasting money by signing anyone at this point because its better to see what we have with the youth since we are out of it anyway."

5. Pocket the excess cash at the end of the season.

When it happens this season, it'll be the 3rd time in a row Mikey has done this.

1. yeah, that happens. On every team. Sometimes it's the wrong move.

2. Well, it was, right?

3. Try "get injured, lose a bunch of games" instead. There is a correllation, you know.

4. We didn't sign Benson? Crocker?

5. So? Mikey gives himself a $1 million bonus. Fine, he doesn't deserve it. But who was that going to buy?

[Bearcat1975]

Which would pretty much qualify as "righting the ship," wouldn't it?

Yes it would. Righting the ship. For "next year." Or "Someday." Or any period of time other than "this season."

All true. But does that happen this year, when there is little reason to rush the newbs into action? I don't see any reason to believe so yet.

4 rookies, including 2 offensive linemen, have been handed starting jobs before training camp has even started. Who does that?

Depends on what you mean by "enough bad seasons in a row." I've seen fire and I've seen rain, so to speak. 7-9? 4-11-1? I've seen worse, and with less hope in the months that followed.

How many seasons in a row can you count that injuries were the primary excuse as to why the Bengals failed? I count all of them since 2005.

1. yeah, that happens. On every team. Sometimes it's the wrong move.

2. Well, it was, right?

3. Try "get injured, lose a bunch of games" instead. There is a correllation, you know.

4. We didn't sign Benson? Crocker?

5. So? Mikey gives himself a $1 million bonus. Fine, he doesn't deserve it. But who was that going to buy?

1. Yeah but then those teams use the excess cap money at the very least to restructure a contract or 2 to free up potential cap money in the following years. Ever seen that here?

2. No, it wasn't actually. Hence the excess cap money.

3. Either way, its a Bengal conveyor belt going nowhere, based on lack of resources and a minimalist approach.

4. Yes we did. Those were good signings I thought. After the season was over. With this year's cap money. I'm talking about the cap money left on the table from last season.

5. Could have restructured a mid-range contract. Pick any way you can think of to put it back into the team. ANything is better than nothing. Which is what happened. Well, Mikey pocketed it. I guess that technically is "something" but you know what I mean. Nothing productive to the Bengals as a team.

[HoosierCat]

Which would pretty much qualify as "righting the ship," wouldn't it?

Yes it would. Righting the ship.

Well, at least we agree on that much.

4 rookies, including 2 offensive linemen, have been handed starting jobs before training camp has even started. Who does that?

And which 4 rooks would those be? There's Huber and...uh. Smith might start depending on how things go with Collins and Levi. Mauluga will see time rotating at SAM and MIKE. Johnson is a situational pass rusher. So I got 1 (Huber) and maybe 2 (Smith).

How many seasons in a row can you count that injuries were the primary excuse as to why the Bengals failed? I count all of them since 2005.

So, there were no injuries the last three years? None? And all the ones there are were the Bengals' fault? I mean, I guess Mikey could have got out there and blocked for Carson, or deflected the hit that broke Pollack's neck...

1. yeah, that happens. On every team. Sometimes it's the wrong move.

2. Well, it was, right?

3. Try "get injured, lose a bunch of games" instead. There is a correllation, you know.

4. We didn't sign Benson? Crocker?

5. So? Mikey gives himself a $1 million bonus. Fine, he doesn't deserve it. But who was that going to buy?

1. Yeah but then those teams use the excess cap money at the very least to restructure a contract or 2 to free up potential cap money in the following years. Ever seen that here?

2. No, it wasn't actually. Hence the excess cap money.

3. Either way, its a Bengal conveyor belt going nowhere, based on lack of resources and a minimalist approach.

4. Yes we did. Those were good signings I thought. After the season was over. With this year's cap money. I'm talking about the cap money left on the table from last season.

5. Could have restructured a mid-range contract. Pick any way you can think of to put it back into the team. ANything is better than nothing. Which is what happened. Well, Mikey pocketed it. I guess that technically is "something" but you know what I mean. Nothing productive to the Bengals as a team.

1. Hmmm. Seems like we extended Peko and Whit last year. And cap space wasn't an issue per you ("pocketing money"), right?

2. Really? What did we sign Benson and Crocker with?

3. IGNORE! IGNORE! IGNORE! Facts conflict with opinion = facts must be wrong!

4. Yup. Mikey left cap money on the table. If he spent it, would we have made the playoffs?

5. So, basically, better to waste $$ on something that doesn't improve the team than to let Mikey have it? Jealous much?

[HAPPYJAQ]

We MUST sign a Nickel CB who can start in a pinch. We're one repeated (and almost clockwork-like) foot injury away from having David Jones starting at LCB. The dominoe effect of the inevitable involves Simeon Castille/Morgan Trent/Geoff Pope seeing significant action in the Nickel.

I think the most likely scenario involves the Bengals seeing who gets released in August/September, as that seems to be their preferred method of filling post-draft holes on the roster.

I also agree that we need to be looking at QBs. If Jordan's last name wasn't Palmer he'd be unemployed and J.T. couldn't even beat out Shaun Hill in San Fran.

[blueridge]

The Bengals would certainly be advised to look into bringing in a veteran CB. Chris McAlister or Dre' Bly would be my first choices. But I think people are too hard on our young CBs. Jones, Pope and Castile are so young. They have talent but are still developing. A veteran such as McAlister would be a great addition. Safety doesn't seem to me to be a position of real need. Of course, if you can upgrade the position, do it. I think RB is a bigger need. Of course, I see no FAs on the market who fit the bill. A guy like Tashard Choice or Michael Bush would be ideal, but you'd almost certainly have to pry those guys loose with a trade. Its here that I wish the Bengals would consider parting ways with Chad Ocho Cinco. I just don't feel comfortable with Watson, Marlon Lucky or James Johnson as Benson's backup. As for additional OL help, I had my eyes on the Rams' Richie Incognito as a guy who would be a great addition; he played G last season but came out of Nebraska as a C and has always been a bona fide tough guy. Incognito just signed his RFA tender, so he is not a free agent, but could still probably be had. At any rate, I think the Bengals have had a fantastic offseason so far and are definitely making great strides in the right direction.

[derekshank]

I think RB is a bigger need. Of course, I see no FAs on the market who fit the bill. A guy like Tashard Choice or Michael Bush would be ideal, but you'd almost certainly have to pry those guys loose with a trade. Its here that I wish the Bengals would consider parting ways with Chad Ocho Cinco. I just don't feel comfortable with Watson, Marlon Lucky or James Johnson as Benson's backup.

Well... there are only so many options here. While I'm probably in the minority on this, I really like Kenny Watson... but wouldn't bat an eye at finding an upgrade over him. Here's the problem... who is out there that is actually an upgrade?

Edgerrin James? While he's a great pass blocking back, he's long since said goodbye to his usefulness as a true RB... and based on his attitude as he was ending his contract with Arizona, he's not really willing to be a 3rd down back.

Warrick Dunn? I respect the dude's career, but he's 34 now... and I doubt a true upgrade.

Deuce McAllister? An aging power back who is always nursing some injury? Can anyone say Rudi Johnson?

Ahman Green? pass.

Deshaun Foster? You thought you hated how much Chris Perry fumbled? Wait until you see this guy.

Selvin Young? An interesting young prospect - but I highly doubt any discernable upgrade over Watson.

Nah... there's just nothing in FA. The Bengals will have to go with what is on the roster right now. Depending on how Bernard Scott works out, they could be anywhere from set at RB to really hurting.

If there was a way to trade Chad for a high quality RB, I'd jump all over that - but then you're really talking about living in a dream world. Nope. We'll just have to see how this plays out. Last year the Bengals went into the season much weaker at RB than I view them right now, so I see no reason to expect them to change anything.

[HAPPYJAQ]

I think RB is a bigger need. Of course, I see no FAs on the market who fit the bill. A guy like Tashard Choice or Michael Bush would be ideal, but you'd almost certainly have to pry those guys loose with a trade. Its here that I wish the Bengals would consider parting ways with Chad Ocho Cinco. I just don't feel comfortable with Watson, Marlon Lucky or James Johnson as Benson's backup.

Well... there are only so many options here. While I'm probably in the minority on this, I really like Kenny Watson... but wouldn't bat an eye at finding an upgrade over him. Here's the problem... who is out there that is actually an upgrade?

Edgerrin James? While he's a great pass blocking back, he's long since said goodbye to his usefulness as a true RB... and based on his attitude as he was ending his contract with Arizona, he's not really willing to be a 3rd down back.

Warrick Dunn? I respect the dude's career, but he's 34 now... and I doubt a true upgrade.

Deuce McAllister? An aging power back who is always nursing some injury? Can anyone say Rudi Johnson?

Ahman Green? pass.

Deshaun Foster? You thought you hated how much Chris Perry fumbled? Wait until you see this guy.

Selvin Young? An interesting young prospect - but I highly doubt any discernable upgrade over Watson.

Nah... there's just nothing in FA. The Bengals will have to go with what is on the roster right now. Depending on how Bernard Scott works out, they could be anywhere from set at RB to really hurting.

If there was a way to trade Chad for a high quality RB, I'd jump all over that - but then you're really talking about living in a dream world. Nope. We'll just have to see how this plays out. Last year the Bengals went into the season much weaker at RB than I view them right now, so I see no reason to expect them to change anything.

Some very good points, but Kenny Watson was healthy at the end of last year and didn't play, for whatever reason. You would have to think the team either thinks he has lost it or JJ Johnson is better player at this point. They even outright released him at a point last season. I like Watson and thinks he gets the job done when asked, but with all of the similar- type players on the roster who are less expensive and younger, it would surprise me if Kenny makes it to Training Camp. The fact that they didn't tender DeDe probably says something, too. If someone surprises, JJ Johnson still has PS elibility left, so he is almost a lock for there if he doesn't make the final roster. For that reason, I'm pretty interested in seeing what Marlon Lucky can do, although they could go with Jeremi starting again and use Fui as the 3rd RB/FB/HB.

I also believe they'll wait to see what they have in Bernard Scott before making a move, but with all the offenses that feature 2 RBs, their will be some considerable talent available later in the Summer, if Scott somehow doesn't work out.

[ArmyBengal]

Here's my thoughts on the rookies starting...

I can only think of Huber as the rookie that has already been "handed" a starting position. The other two that are high probability are A. Smith and Maualuga, but Levi could change that and Maualuga hasn't been tagged for a position yet. M. Johnson and Coffman are going to be role players, as already mentioned.

That being said, the question becomes, do you think the Bengals are going to the playoffs if we DON'T start some rookies ?? I think the answer is a great big F*CK NO !!! If that's the case, why not get your youngsters some quality playing time and yes if it's in the starters role, why not ?? I just can't see the down side to getting the youngsters in the game and have them learn the speed as soon as possible.

Sure Carson is a concern, but do you think he's less of a concern with whatever player you put on the field ?? Meaning, would you be more comfortable with Collins on the right than A. Smith ?? More comfortable with Jeanty over Maualuga ?? So on and so on...

Last year was noted as being good for the youngsters to come on and show what they can do in the midst of all the injuries. Most viewed that as a good thing for this team. My point is, if we don't expect the team to go to the playoffs without the rookies playing/starting, why wouldn't we do just that with getting them on the field ??

[Baraka]

what about CB rod hood? he was cut from arizona after signing a pretty sizable contract as a free agent from philly. i thought it was weird they cut ties with hiim so quickly. any idea why this happened? i remember thinking he would be a good fit when he was a FA a couple of years ago and he's still fairly young. just a thought . . .

[membengal]

There are ZERO reasons to worry about upgrading RB now. If the team is dissatisfied with what it as at RB, then after last cuts at training camp there will be plenty of decent bodies available to scoop up at that position.

I second those who have been advocating signing some competition for CB. I also wouldn't mind Roy Williams at S.

[ArmyBengal]

I heard Rudi still doesn't have a job !!!

Seriously though, the RB position is chock full of questions and that includes Benson...

[Wraith]

The Bronos have like 15 RBs now, I expect them to cut somebody of decent value like Arrington.

[HoosierCat]

what about CB rod hood? he was cut from arizona after signing a pretty sizable contract as a free agent from philly. i thought it was weird they cut ties with hiim so quickly. any idea why this happened? i remember thinking he would be a good fit when he was a FA a couple of years ago and he's still fairly young. just a thought . . .

Ask and ye shall receive...

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/05/06/...it-the-bengals/

[HairOnFire]

what about CB rod hood? he was cut from arizona after signing a pretty sizable contract as a free agent from philly. i thought it was weird they cut ties with hiim so quickly. any idea why this happened? i remember thinking he would be a good fit when he was a FA a couple of years ago and he's still fairly young. just a thought . . .

Ask and ye shall receive...

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/05/06/...it-the-bengals/

Damn, that actually works for me. I'm not that familiar with Rod Hood himself, but I'd prefer a cheaper younger player with starting experience over a declining older player like a Dre Bly type.

[Baraka]

ha! blind squirrel and what not . . .

[Clackwoods]

Couldn't agree more with bringing in a CB and a Safety. If healthy, JJoe and Hall are good, but health is the concern with JJoe and after them, I'm not anywhere near comfortable with someone else getting the starting spot. Ndukwe and White are nice and I like them as players, but I would like to see more from that position. Roy Williams wouldn't bother me in the least "IF" Zimmer thinks he can contribute in our scheme. If not, forget about him. O-line could always use some better players, because I'm not sold on the backups we currently have on the roster.

Honestly, QB is a position that I would love to see an upgrade to. What if Palmer goes down again ?? O'Sullivan ?? Palmer 2.0 ??

3-13 here we come !!!

Outside of that, I'm pretty happy.

JT is WAYYYYYYYY better than Fitz ever can hope to be.

[ArmyBengal]

Couldn't agree more with bringing in a CB and a Safety. If healthy, JJoe and Hall are good, but health is the concern with JJoe and after them, I'm not anywhere near comfortable with someone else getting the starting spot. Ndukwe and White are nice and I like them as players, but I would like to see more from that position. Roy Williams wouldn't bother me in the least "IF" Zimmer thinks he can contribute in our scheme. If not, forget about him. O-line could always use some better players, because I'm not sold on the backups we currently have on the roster.

Honestly, QB is a position that I would love to see an upgrade to. What if Palmer goes down again ?? O'Sullivan ?? Palmer 2.0 ??

3-13 here we come !!!

Outside of that, I'm pretty happy.

JT is WAYYYYYYYY better than Fitz ever can hope to be.

And how many different teams has O'Sullivan played for and how has he done while with those teams ??

Saying JT is WAAAAAAAY better than Fitz is like saying it's WAAAAAAAAY better to drive nails through your scrotum as opposed to setting it to fire.

It really doesn't matter as there was not ONE quarterback we could have brought in in free agency that would have made me real happy and none that would be happy coming into a backup role with little chance of getting on the field minus another injury to Carson.

So, I guess I'll take it, but refuse to claim any type of happiness being taken away from that decision...

[Clackwoods]

Couldn't agree more with bringing in a CB and a Safety. If healthy, JJoe and Hall are good, but health is the concern with JJoe and after them, I'm not anywhere near comfortable with someone else getting the starting spot. Ndukwe and White are nice and I like them as players, but I would like to see more from that position. Roy Williams wouldn't bother me in the least "IF" Zimmer thinks he can contribute in our scheme. If not, forget about him. O-line could always use some better players, because I'm not sold on the backups we currently have on the roster.

Honestly, QB is a position that I would love to see an upgrade to. What if Palmer goes down again ?? O'Sullivan ?? Palmer 2.0 ??

3-13 here we come !!!

Outside of that, I'm pretty happy.

JT is WAYYYYYYYY better than Fitz ever can hope to be.

And how many different teams has O'Sullivan played for and how has he done while with those teams ??

Saying JT is WAAAAAAAY better than Fitz is like saying it's WAAAAAAAAY better to drive nails through your scrotum as opposed to setting it to fire.

It really doesn't matter as there was not ONE quarterback we could have brought in in free agency that would have made me real happy and none that would be happy coming into a backup role with little chance of getting on the field minus another injury to Carson.

So, I guess I'll take it, but refuse to claim any type of happiness being taken away from that decision...

Trust me, I am with everyone here in thinking that if Carson goes down then we are f**ked, but I would rather have Osullivan back their than Fitz.

What about my cousin Tim Couch, I am sure his arm is healed by now, can he make it a career again?

[ArmyBengal]

What about my cousin Tim Couch, I am sure his arm is healed by now, can he make it a career again?

No