Build for 2010 anyone?

[Clackwoods]

OK, we have been having these discussion about getting an OT in round 1 in other posts. I am proposing another solution.

Round 1- Brian Orakpo-DE

Round 2- Alex Mack

Round 3- Javon Ringer

OK, I know everyone is obsessed with the idea of an OT and I don't blame you, I agree with the fact that we need a Line to protect Carson. But, have you seen Orakpo? He is a freak of nature and he would great to add to our defensive line to go along with Sims and the combo of Geathers and Odom.

Centers need time to learn the offense and if we get one this year it will take at least a year for him to be totally comfortable. This is why I justify passing on an OT. We can get an OT with our first round pick next year.

Javon Ringer is awesome and he would be a great back to pair with Benson. He is a great reciever out of the backfield and he can pound it up the middle.

I know people are going to hate on this, but you have to build for the future and my plan takes care of both lines and our RB position. We can just gut it out one more year with Levi.

[GregCook]

OK, we have been having these discussion about getting an OT in round 1 in other posts. I am proposing another solution.

Round 1- Brian Orakpo-DE

Round 2- Alex Mack

Round 3- Javon Ringer

OK, I know everyone is obsessed with the idea of an OT and I don't blame you, I agree with the fact that we need a Line to protect Carson. But, have you seen Orakpo? He is a freak of nature and he would great to add to our defensive line to go along with Sims and the combo of Geathers and Odom.

Centers need time to learn the offense and if we get one this year it will take at least a year for him to be totally comfortable. This is why I justify passing on an OT. We can get an OT with our first round pick next year.

Javon Ringer is awesome and he would be a great back to pair with Benson. He is a great reciever out of the backfield and he can pound it up the middle.

I know people are going to hate on this, but you have to build for the future and my plan takes care of both lines and our RB position. We can just gut it out one more year with Levi.

Definitely they can't fix whats broken in one draft. But doing what you suggest, how many more games will we win with a DE that plays maybe 10-15 snaps on defense? Do you think Brian would be so good he'd push Geathers and Odom to the sideline at their salaries? Like it or not, Geathers and Odom are here to stay for years to come given the money invested in them both.

We're losing two starters from the Oline due to injuries, Levi and Stacy. The Bengals have to add more bodies to the most important positions on the line who go against the most athletic and highest paid guys on defense, the DE's. I think the Bengals would be crazy not to add a tackle from the #6 position if a top talent is still available. Plus you are forgetting that the Bengals ended the season with a line that was staffed with a starter and backups who were on the street during most of 2008 or other teams practice squads. How in the world can they let that continue into 2009? It wouldn't surprise me if they draft 3 Olinemen in 2009, two high picks and one low.

[HairOnFire]

I know people are going to hate on this....

Of course THEY will. After all, you're actually suggesting the Bengals draft one defensive player.

Around here that's crazy talk.

[HairOnFire]

But doing what you suggest, how many more games will we win with a DE that plays maybe 10-15 snaps on defense? Do you think Brian would be so good he'd push Geathers and Odom to the sideline at their salaries? Like it or not, Geathers and Odom are here to stay for years to come given the money invested in them both.

Why would Orakpo be limited to 10 or 15 snaps? Both he and Geathers are capable of filling the Joker role of pass rushing OLB, and all three DE's have a history of flipping easily from the left to right side. Furthermore, both Geathers and Odom have a history of higher production when used in a 3-man platoon, and I'm guessing a little help now and then would only help Orakpo. As for the money invested in the position, most teams built around elite defenses have a long history of investing multiple high picks or FA assets on defensive lineman. Think Titans, Giants, Patriots, etc. Am I to assume the Bengals are set at DE simply because they have two players who so far have looked better on paper than on the field? Plus, without a durable DE with a history of locking down about 98% of the available snaps the Bengals have little reason to believe they have enough firepower OR warm bodies to make it through any season without additional help. Oh, and let's not forget Zimmer's primary wish for next season. More pass rushers.

[Clackwoods]

But doing what you suggest, how many more games will we win with a DE that plays maybe 10-15 snaps on defense? Do you think Brian would be so good he'd push Geathers and Odom to the sideline at their salaries? Like it or not, Geathers and Odom are here to stay for years to come given the money invested in them both.

Why would Orakpo be limited to 10 or 15 snaps? Both he and Geathers are capable of filling the Joker role of pass rushing OLB, and all three DE's have a history of flipping easily from the left to right side. Furthermore, both Geathers and Odom have a history of higher production when used in a 3-man platoon, and I'm guessing a little help now and then would only help Orakpo. As for the money invested in the position, most teams built around elite defenses have a long history of investing multiple high picks or FA assets on defensive lineman. Think Titans, Giants, Patriots, etc. Am I to assume the Bengals are set at DE simply because they have two players who so far have looked better on paper than on the field? Plus, without a durable DE with a history of locking down about 98% of the available snaps the Bengals have little reason to believe they have enough firepower OR warm bodies to make it through any season without additional help. Oh, and let's not forget Zimmer's primary wish for next season. More pass rushers.

I agree, we can get get a free agent bum to fill in on the line for one year. Okopoka benches over 500 lbs and he is fast. I read a scouting report that said he will be at best Julius Peppers and at worst Mike Rucker. Mike Rucker was no slob and when a pro scout says that about you, that is something. I defiantly think we should go Oline in round 2, but you don't pass on people like this when you can get him, the guy would throw Justin Tuck's big ass around!

[Clackwoods]

Savage.....Enough Said!

[BengalByTheBay]

I know people are going to hate on this, but you have to build for the future and my plan takes care of both lines and our RB position. We can just gut it out one more year with Levi.

Au contraire....no hate here. Plus, I covet the idea of being able to scream "OhCrapOh" at my tv numerous times next season.

[Clackwoods]

I know people are going to hate on this, but you have to build for the future and my plan takes care of both lines and our RB position. We can just gut it out one more year with Levi.

Au contraire....no hate here. Plus, I covet the idea of being able to scream "OhCrapOh" at my tv numerous times next season.

Yea, as our new DE rips the head off of Big Ben or Brady Quinn.

[BengalByTheBay]

I know people are going to hate on this, but you have to build for the future and my plan takes care of both lines and our RB position. We can just gut it out one more year with Levi.

Au contraire....no hate here. Plus, I covet the idea of being able to scream "OhCrapOh" at my tv numerous times next season.

Yea, as our new DE rips the head off of Big Ben or Brady Quinn.

That works!

[GregCook]

But doing what you suggest, how many more games will we win with a DE that plays maybe 10-15 snaps on defense? Do you think Brian would be so good he'd push Geathers and Odom to the sideline at their salaries? Like it or not, Geathers and Odom are here to stay for years to come given the money invested in them both.

Why would Orakpo be limited to 10 or 15 snaps? Both he and Geathers are capable of filling the Joker role of pass rushing OLB, and all three DE's have a history of flipping easily from the left to right side. Furthermore, both Geathers and Odom have a history of higher production when used in a 3-man platoon, and I'm guessing a little help now and then would only help Orakpo. As for the money invested in the position, most teams built around elite defenses have a long history of investing multiple high picks or FA assets on defensive lineman. Think Titans, Giants, Patriots, etc. Am I to assume the Bengals are set at DE simply because they have two players who so far have looked better on paper than on the field? Plus, without a durable DE with a history of locking down about 98% of the available snaps the Bengals have little reason to believe they have enough firepower OR warm bodies to make it through any season without additional help. Oh, and let's not forget Zimmer's primary wish for next season. More pass rushers.

Why few snaps? He's a rookie, he'd be on passing downs mostly and there are two guys making boatloads of cash already there. Would it be nice to see Big Ben getting turf up his nose from a pass rusher? Yeah sure, but we already had Carson with a broken nose. If they don't fix that oline, then they still lose games, with or without a pass rush.

[HairOnFire]

Why few snaps? He's a rookie, he'd be on passing downs mostly and there are two guys making boatloads of cash already there.

So there's a rule about not having more than 2 pass rushers on any given play?

Is that just a Bengal thing?

And if it is, well....how's that working for us?

Lastly, and just for giggles, ask yourself how many snaps Orakpo might have played this season on a Bengal team that already featured Geathers and Odom.

We're talking about a buttload, aren't we?

[ShulaSteakhouse]

Look for more Geathers/Rucker/Henderson/Fanene types this year in mid-rounds - Marvin has tried the philosophy of other teams with a 3-4 man rotation of flexible ends/tackles/OLB's, but the guys he's picked are always hurt and they've held onto them too long at this point.

There's no way in hades the Bengals' will pay 1st round, let alone top 10 money, for another DE after what they're paying Geathers and Odom. I'd be absolutely shocked if they did.

[derekshank]

Why few snaps? He's a rookie, he'd be on passing downs mostly and there are two guys making boatloads of cash already there.

So there's a rule about not having more than 2 pass rushers on any given play?

Is that just a Bengal thing?

And if it is, well....how's that working for us?

Lastly, and just for giggles, ask yourself how many snaps Orakpo might have played this season on a Bengal team that already featured Geathers and Odom.

We're talking about a buttload, aren't we?

My problem with Orakpo is not the position he plays. I'd love to have a pass rushing DE. He's just more of a complete DE. That might sound like a bit of an odd complaint... but the problem with this D-line has not been in stopping the run. It's been the pass rush. If the Bengals are going to invest even more serious dollars into the position, I'd like it to be in a guy whose skill set accomplishes that purpose.

I know Dwight Freeney isn't a very complete DE. He's a liability against the run... but I'd sure love to have him wearing stripes on 3rd and long. I suppose in the short term having Odom, Geathers, and Orakpo would help with freshness, as well as moving one of them to DT on passing downs for a little bit extra pass rush - but I'm still skeptical that he's that answer to the Bengals woes.

I wouldn't throw a hissy fit if they take him... I just don't think he's the solution. I'd rather trade down and get Michael Johnson (I know... easier said than done), a pure pass rusher whose physical tools make him that Freeney type weapon.

[HairOnFire]

There's no way in hades the Bengals' will pay 1st round, let alone top 10 money, for another DE after what they're paying Geathers and Odom. I'd be absolutely shocked if they did.

Me too.

In fact, what I think will happen won't shock anyone. In short, I expect them to draft a new OT, and in so doing pass on at least one, and probably two, dramatically superior prospects.

Admittedly, the plan sounds alot better the way you say it, but there it is.

[Clackwoods]

But doing what you suggest, how many more games will we win with a DE that plays maybe 10-15 snaps on defense? Do you think Brian would be so good he'd push Geathers and Odom to the sideline at their salaries? Like it or not, Geathers and Odom are here to stay for years to come given the money invested in them both.

Why would Orakpo be limited to 10 or 15 snaps? Both he and Geathers are capable of filling the Joker role of pass rushing OLB, and all three DE's have a history of flipping easily from the left to right side. Furthermore, both Geathers and Odom have a history of higher production when used in a 3-man platoon, and I'm guessing a little help now and then would only help Orakpo. As for the money invested in the position, most teams built around elite defenses have a long history of investing multiple high picks or FA assets on defensive lineman. Think Titans, Giants, Patriots, etc. Am I to assume the Bengals are set at DE simply because they have two players who so far have looked better on paper than on the field? Plus, without a durable DE with a history of locking down about 98% of the available snaps the Bengals have little reason to believe they have enough firepower OR warm bodies to make it through any season without additional help. Oh, and let's not forget Zimmer's primary wish for next season. More pass rushers.

Why few snaps? He's a rookie, he'd be on passing downs mostly and there are two guys making boatloads of cash already there. Would it be nice to see Big Ben getting turf up his nose from a pass rusher? Yeah sure, but we already had Carson with a broken nose. If they don't fix that oline, then they still lose games, with or without a pass rush.

If you read his scouting report the scout believes he would be able to come in and go full boar full time. Like I said before, we are probably going to lose next year no matter what we do so lets get a high profile DE and then get an OT next year when we can get just as much talent for a lower draft pick.

[derekshank]

If you read his scouting report the scout believes he would be able to come in and go full boar full time. Like I said before, we are probably going to lose next year no matter what we do so lets get a high profile DE and then get an OT next year when we can get just as much talent for a lower draft pick.

Is next year a no DE's allowed draft? Why not the other way around? Some of the best OT's in recent memory are in this draft... and the stakes are Carson Palmer's health.

That said... I'm not opposed to going in a direction other than OT. I just don't understand your logic of putting it off until next year - just because.

[Clackwoods]

If you read his scouting report the scout believes he would be able to come in and go full boar full time. Like I said before, we are probably going to lose next year no matter what we do so lets get a high profile DE and then get an OT next year when we can get just as much talent for a lower draft pick.

Is next year a no DE's allowed draft? Why not the other way around? Some of the best OT's in recent memory are in this draft... and the stakes are Carson Palmer's health.

That said... I'm not opposed to going in a direction other than OT. I just don't understand your logic of putting it off until next year - just because.

All I am saying is the drop off between a top 5 or 6 DE and a top 20 DE is very significant. The drop off between a top 5 or 6 OT and a top 20 OT is a lot less. So I am saying that we get our great DE this year and get a FA to plug the gap for one year at LT and then next year get our LT around 15-20 (I do think we will improve to at least 8-8 next year.

This gives us our great DE and allows him to grow one year and with our rookie LT we will be able to make a playoff run in 2010.

[HairOnFire]

Is next year a no DE's allowed draft? Why not the other way around?

Whahhh? The whole point of this thread is to ask why almost all Bengal related draft talk is centered on the Oline. Clack is asking why not DE? In fact, he's specifically asking why not Orakpo.

It's a fair question.

Furthermore, DE is still a need for this team and according to my eyes Orakpo is worthy of consideration at #6. So where's all this crap about no debate coming from? When has this team ever been so good defensively that it could rationalize a draft strategy based upon ignoring a premier DE prospect?

[derekshank]

Is next year a no DE's allowed draft? Why not the other way around?

Whahhh? The whole point of this thread is to ask why almost all Bengal related draft talk is centered on the Oline. Clack is asking why not DE? In fact, he's specifically asking why not Orakpo.

It's a fair question.

Furthermore, DE is still a need for this team and according to my eyes Orakpo is worthy of consideration at #6. So where's all this crap about no debate coming from? When has this team ever been so good defensively that it could rationalize a draft strategy based upon ignoring a premier DE prospect?

Whahhh? Is that your Simpsons's Moe impression? You weren't in the "Moe is us" camp a couple years back when so many were "Homers" were you?

Anyway... you misunderstood my point completely. Clack was not merely asking why not DE. He was saying to wait to address the O-Line until next years draft.

Like I said before, we are probably going to lose next year no matter what we do so lets get a high profile DE and then get an OT next year when we can get just as much talent for a lower draft pick.

That is what I was addressing. I have never said that DE isn't a need. Just the opposite... but no one believes that the Bengals should wait until next year to address the OT situation. Andrews is out, and Levi stinks.

I'm not against waiting until the 2nd round to get an OT... but next year? The Bengals do have 16 games to play between the '09 draft and the 2010 draft. I'd prefer they try to keep the franchise player healthy during that time.

[derekshank]

All I am saying is the drop off between a top 5 or 6 DE and a top 20 DE is very significant. The drop off between a top 5 or 6 OT and a top 20 OT is a lot less.

What is this opinion based on?

[BengalPimp]

..........I HAVE THE SOLUTION............

A 3 STEP SOLUTION

STEP 1 : Examine the NEEDS of the 5 teams below you (#7 Oakland,#8 Jax,#9Green Bay, #10 San Fran, #11 Buffalo)

STEP 2 : Leak out to the media, your desire to draft all the players those teams highly covet.....

STEP 3 : Trade down to a team in fear of losing out on the player they really want.......

Ahhhh manipulation sounds so easy doesnt it?

[HairOnFire]

Anyway... you misunderstood my point completely. Clack was not merely asking why not DE. He was saying to wait to address the O-Line until next years draft.

Fair enough. I hadn't realized until now how admamant he is about not addressing the Oline at any point in this years draft.

You may now pummel him with my blessing.

[COB]

STEP 2 : Leak out to the media, your desire to draft all the players those teams highly covet.....

I quite enjoy the spy vs. spy aspect of the draft. All the lying, all the misinformation, feint this way, then draft that way. Marvin is good at it, but often we have such a gaping hole that we don't fool anyone. Come to think of it, Marvin is pretty much in misinformation mode year round.

[Clackwoods]

All I am saying is the drop off between a top 5 or 6 DE and a top 20 DE is very significant. The drop off between a top 5 or 6 OT and a top 20 OT is a lot less.

What is this opinion based on?

OK let's just take a look at the drafts from 2003-2006 and that will answer that question, you can see the difference in the talent level of the DE based on where they are drafted. I am only including the first 22 picks because I doubt we will pick lower than that.

2003- 13th pick- Ty Warren (Solid DE)

14th- Michael Haynes (Who?)

15th- Jerome McDoogle (OK)

2004- 18- Will Smith (Good but injury prone)

20- Udeze (Washout)

2005- 18- Erasmus James- BUST

20- Marcus Spears- Decent player

2006- 1- Mario Williams (SACK MASTER)

20- Tambi Hali (Bum)

The only player taken very high turned out to be a pro bowler, the rest are mediocre at best outside warren.

If you examine the drafts and look at all the OT's taken later than 10 in those drafts they are just as successful as some of the OL taken in the top 10.

Also, I want the Bengals to get a Center in round 2 and get a FA to fill the gap for a year. I am not saying disregard the line, I am just saying after we get our Oline fixed they will want to address Dline and then we may be looking at a pick in the teens which just isn't adequate enough to find the superstar Dlinemen we need.

[Clackwoods]

Anyway... you misunderstood my point completely. Clack was not merely asking why not DE. He was saying to wait to address the O-Line until next years draft.

Fair enough. I hadn't realized until now how admamant he is about not addressing the Oline at any point in this years draft.

You may now pummel him with my blessing.

No I want to address the Oline, just in the second round with a high profile center. We still have Levi's broke ass and Collins and we can bring a FA in for a one year gap. If the Bengals take an OT I won't be upset at all, I am just saying we should take a DE because we are going to either this year or next so why not get the better value, we wont win anything until at least 2010 so we can draft for the future.