I don't want to be pessimistic!

[UF_Gators_15]

How bad are our pass rushing ends? Geathers is servicable but he is definitely not worth his money, Antwan Odom is terrible, I thought he would be good for us b/c he's big with athletic ability and long arms, but I can officially say sumthin that I never thought I'd say, I miss Bustin Smith! He has less ability but an A+ motor. I was watching Odom today vs. the Chiefs and he was terrible, if u taped it, go back and watch him, he literally takes every play off, just piss poor effort, didn't even try to get pass the tackle trying to block him, just ran into him like he was going to bullrush him but didn't try to even bullrush him. I say unless he was hurt and just couldn't perform, we bite the bullet and release both Odom and Geathers, more money for free agency with a lot of good free agents on the market! I only say bite the bullet b/c of the amount of money already given to these two schlubs, cause we wouldn't miss them!

[JoePong]

First of all, that's not how you spell it. Second, we will NOT have more money to spend in free agency if we cut geathers and odom, we would have a lot less. It would be a huge cap hit. We'd have no money for anything, much less sign anyone who would be better than either geathers or odom.

Other than that, you seem pretty smart.

[kentjett]

Our defense is ten times better w/ the ends we have right now then it was w/ Justin Smith. Smith was an freak athletically but he is undisciplined. Zimmers scheme calls for the ends to stay in a specific area and not give up the corner which we've been very good at. Smith was always out of place and running around like a LB. Odom and Geathers have had several injuries this year and they haven't been in very many opportunities where they can go all out after the QB. Both are extremely athletic smart DE's and they aren't breaking the bank. With that being said, we do need another DE that specializes in rushing the QB. Our defense will be fine as long as Zimmer stays, we need to worry about our offense. We need to let a 32 year old TJ walk and go w/ Caldwell who has really impressed me. He is a faster version of TJ who blocks really good.

[Kirkendall]

Our defense is ten times better w/ the ends we have right now then it was w/ Justin Smith.

I agree that our defense is better, but I think Smith would have made the defense better. Just my unscientific opinion.

On the other hand, anyone notice that the defense further improved (not greatly) when we moved Thornton outside during our stretch of playing really bad teams?

[GregCook]

Our defense is ten times better w/ the ends we have right now then it was w/ Justin Smith. Smith was an freak athletically but he is undisciplined. Zimmers scheme calls for the ends to stay in a specific area and not give up the corner which we've been very good at. Smith was always out of place and running around like a LB. Odom and Geathers have had several injuries this year and they haven't been in very many opportunities where they can go all out after the QB. Both are extremely athletic smart DE's and they aren't breaking the bank. With that being said, we do need another DE that specializes in rushing the QB. Our defense will be fine as long as Zimmer stays, we need to worry about our offense. We need to let a 32 year old TJ walk and go w/ Caldwell who has really impressed me. He is a faster version of TJ who blocks really good.

Well said about Justin, I lost lots of food in the past watching him go on the loose chasing phantoms only to see someone streak by him for a nice gain.

I agree too that DE isn't the highest of holies at this point. I'd vote for DT over DE with a high draft pick.

I agree about TJ. In fact TJ agrees with you too. By not playing due to a bogus November injury, he sent Mike and Marvin a message that he doesn't want to be a Cincinnati Bengal in 2009.

[Walrus]

I think we can all agree that this team has really struggled to generate pass rush and we need to add guys in order to get where we want to be. We didn't start out the season with very many pass rushers and injuries quickly took care of the guys we did have. Odom and Geathers were injured most of this season along with Rucker, Henderson and Rivers; from the secondary we've lost Ndukwe and JJoe who are both excellent on the blitz.

Also, to be fair, according to Thornton (http://www.bengals.com/news/news.asp?story_id=7431), they were trying to contain Thigpen yesterday -- not rush him.

Of course that's not to say they could've sacked him if they tried.

But my point is, I don't think Geathers and Odom are garbage; they do need some help. Seems like rounds 4-6 in the draft can turn out some pretty decent situational pass rushers. Wherever this help comes from, I hope they can find somebody freakin' DURABLE.

[gregstephens]

Wherever this help comes from, I hope they can find somebody freakin' DURABLE.

This goes back to the training issue. Look at all the IR injuries last year and this year. These guys managed to play in college and, for the most part, play 12 game seasons without injury. Why do they get to the NFL and suffer some of the most apparently-basic injuries on the planet?

Gotta be the trainers.

[TJJackson]

Geathers was most effective when used as a situational rusher rather than a every-down DE

I hope we see them at least try that this year, with maybe Fanene playing 1st and 2nd down and Geathers in on 3rd down.

[Kazkal]

Gotta be the trainers.

But we have a great staff of trainers like we have great scouts er scout...

[HairOnFire]

Smith was an freak athletically but he is undisciplined. Zimmers scheme calls for the ends to stay in a specific area and not give up the corner which we've been very good at. Smith was always out of place and running around like a LB.

Well that's just stupid. The biggest criticism Smith faced as a Bengal was related to his constant bull rushing...which was dictated by the Bengal's preference of outside containment over pure pressure. As for the times Smith ran around like a LB....he frequently dropped into pass coverage by design, and he was very good at it.

Odom and Geathers have had several injuries this year and they haven't been in very many opportunities where they can go all out after the QB. Both are extremely athletic smart DE's and they aren't breaking the bank.

Actually, once you finish making excuses for their play you might conclude they're aren't doing much of anything. But yeah, when healthy they both manage to do nothing at a much higher rate of speed than Smith managed.

With that being said, we do need another DE that specializes in rushing the QB.

What, a pair of pass rushing bookends aren't enough for you?

Well, no....it isn't, right? And the reason you still feel the need is because none of the Bengals crop of DE's has managed to flash any of the durability most Bengal fans took for granted when year after year Smith was playing over 98% of defensive snaps.

[Kazkal]

Smith may have been overdrafted but he wasn't a bad player and atm I would not mind having him back aslong as we could get pass rush from other spots or relieve him every now and then

[HairOnFire]

On the other hand, anyone notice that the defense further improved (not greatly) when we moved Thornton outside during our stretch of playing really bad teams?

Yeah, I noticed. The defensive line lost so many DE's it was forced to play heavy, using extra DT's or craptastic elephant styled DE's like Fanene. That all but ended any hope for a true pass rush, so they quite rightly focused on stopping the run upfront while attacking the pocket on nearly every down with an extra safety or CB.

As for Thornton specifically, at this stage in his career I'd say he's probably better suited as a true elephant DE than as an undersized DT.

[HairOnFire]

We need to let a 32 year old TJ walk and go w/ Caldwell who has really impressed me. He is a faster version of TJ who blocks really good.

I'm still in favor of tagging TJ, but I will admit my support for that idea is softening....not so much because of anything Caldwell has managed to do, but rather because of a growing willingness on my part to tear it all down and start over fresh.

[HoosierCat]

We need to let a 32 year old TJ walk and go w/ Caldwell who has really impressed me. He is a faster version of TJ who blocks really good.

I'm still in favor of tagging TJ, but I will admit my support for that idea is softening....not so much because of anything Caldwell has managed to do, but rather because of a growing willingness on my part to tear it all down and start over fresh.

I know the feeling, but "blow it up" isn't Mike Brown's style. I fear that letting TJ walk would accomplish only...letting TJ walk.

[HairOnFire]

I fear that letting TJ walk would accomplish only...letting TJ walk.

Flip it.

What does tagging TJ accomplish if next seasons team is still no better than .500?

[ArmyBengal]

I fear that letting TJ walk would accomplish only...letting TJ walk.

Flip it.

What does tagging TJ accomplish if next seasons team is still no better than .500?

Well, not really arguing here, but he's always identified as the one vet WR on the team that goes out of way to try to help the young WR's learn their task at hand and is

(if to no one else) a mentor to them. I'm not saying that mentorship is or isn't worth the near 10mil the tag will probably cost, but that answers the question. Mentorship and guidance to your young WR's the team invested high picks in and needing to develop.

That being said, I hope they bring TJ back because I believe he's just a tough WR who runs good routes and has good hands. I also believe he has a few more good years in him...

[HairOnFire]

Two sides to every coin, right? Having Housh on the roster gives you a so-called coach on the field, but it also means the kids don't play much or at all.

I can still support the idea of tagging TJ, but only if this team truly believes it can field a playoff contender NEXT season.

[Kazkal]

I fear that letting TJ walk would accomplish only...letting TJ walk.

Flip it.

What does tagging TJ accomplish if next seasons team is still no better than .500?

Well, not really arguing here, but he's always identified as the one vet WR on the team that goes out of way to try to help the young WR's learn their task at hand and is

(if to no one else) a mentor to them. I'm not saying that mentorship is or isn't worth the near 10mil the tag will probably cost, but that answers the question. Mentorship and guidance to your young WR's the team invested high picks in and needing to develop.

That being said, I hope they bring TJ back because I believe he's just a tough WR who runs good routes and has good hands. I also believe he has a few more good years in him...

Question would a pissed off and tagged TJ going to mentor the young guys? he doesn't want the tag he's made that clear he's gonna be 32 and wants his last big deal.

[HoosierCat]

I can still support the idea of tagging TJ, but only if this team truly believes it can field a playoff contender NEXT season.

And there's the problem -- a team with TJ has a better shot of being a contender than a team without him, based on what we saw at WR this year. Let him walk and you send the signal you're writing off '09, which makes it that much harder for the team to shore up weaknesses elsewhere.

[whizzo]

do we need the tag for anyone else? if the answer is no, tag TJ (he should quit bitching, seeing how he'll get a cool 10 million for a year's work).

[HairOnFire]

And there's the problem -- a team with TJ has a better shot of being a contender than a team without him, based on what we saw at WR this year.

No argument, TJ is better than the next best option so letting him leave weakens the team in regards to immediately available talent and experience. That said, the decision to keep or allow a player to depart is never based soley on those factors, and contract issues always play a huge role if the dispute is so prolonged that it now involves a franchise tag. In fact, despite the staggering differences in fan support the Bengals now face exactly the same types of decisions in regards to whether TJ is tagged or not as they once did in regards to Stacey Andrews and Justin Smith. In short, the use of a franchise tag is justifiable under the present circumstances only if the Bengals think the tagged player can help them contend right now OR if they think the extra years service will provide enough time to secure a long-term contract agreement. Whether either of these things are true in TJ's example seems dubious at best.

Let him walk and you send the signal you're writing off '09, which makes it that much harder for the team to shore up weaknesses elsewhere.

I disagree. Letting TJ walk may shouldn't "automatically" be seen as a sign that '09 is being written off....although who could blame anyone if they did just that. Rather, it could be seen as the wisest step a rebuilding team could take as it sets off in a new direction. And speaking of new directions, which player is currently far more valuable to a rebuilding Bengal team, Cedric Benson or TJ?

As for the idea that allowing TJ to depart makes it more difficult to shore up weaknesses elsewhere, well....how did your classic "Don't tag Justin" rant go?

[ArmyBengal]

I agree with TJ needing to shut the F*CK up about getting the tag. At the tune of around 10 million for his one year of service, he should just smile and go to the bank. Who knows how this will play out ??

[HoosierCat]

As for the idea that allowing TJ to depart makes it more difficult to shore up weaknesses elsewhere, well....how did your classic "Don't tag Justin" rant go?

What don't tag Justin rant? I was one of the few much-derided supporters of doing so.